Votes for 16

[Up_Tilt_390]

I don't think Westminster is any less representative than society as a whole. A friend of mine once said that one of the depressing aspects of growing up from being a child to being an adult is that one starts to realise how childish many adults actually are, having as a child been brought up to respect adults. Certainly where I am a workplace team meeting discussing rosters or overtime is about on a par with PMQs.

Maturity clearly isn't an age thing by the sounds of it. Maybe power just gets to those in management or Westminster that they think they can act as unprofessional as they like. I don't know, I am not very knowledgeable on the working world myself.

 

[KashmireHawker]

Tell me, is it true that Youth Parliamentarians are more mature than those of Westmintser?

In My Opinion: Yes. Some do get done for for mistakes made during / after there time as an Elected Rep (2 have been chucked in the slammer for various crimes), but each of the 8 Debates in the Commons (including the one I sat within in 2014) have pretty much shown up elected MP's: although in 2013 and 2014, people managed to bring in masks (one of Putin in 2014), toy owls and other stuff into the Chamber: just to try and attract the Speakers Attention... That has since been banned to one's relief!

I actually missed out speaking due to the person next to me (image shows me in the glasses on his left hand side applauding his speech) sending a letter to Mr Bercow a couple weeks beforehand, which I shall always be gutted about! But it's a day I shall always remember fondly - can't believe the picture is from the day with me as a 17 year old!

Votes At 16 debate will be due between 11:50am-12:20pm. Quality of debate is rather good and all the hard work of MYP's throughout there terms show right throughout proceedings

 

[43021HST]

Please would you comment on the articles I quoted from in post 141 above, one of which was published in that noted right wing rag the Guardian, both written from the perspective of teachers expressing concern at the left wing bias in education. Are these a load of tommyrot?

Do you also not see how feminists shouting down pro abortion speakers is the very definition of anti-intellectual?

I wouldn't quite go as far as saying the guardian is right-wing , I'd say it's liberal centrist really. I have considered your articles, and my comment for them would be ... Big whoop.

It's all anecdotal nonsense from what I feel is maybe some rather tory teachers pretending to be partisan and I fail to see how celebrating things like the living wage is a bad thing.
I also fail to see how feminists are left wing, feminism is a liberal belief. You can get right wing liberals and left wing liberals, confusing liberalism for being left wing is a classic and increasingly common error. If anything anti-platforming is a liberal issue, not a left wing one.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Shouldn't people have to pass a test to vote ? We'd be better giving the vote to Mr Shifter and the PG Tea chimps than letting members of the Jeremy Kyle audience help decide our future.

 

[Bromley boy]

I wouldn't quite go as far as saying the guardian is right-wing , I'd say it's liberal centrist really.

It's a left of centre paper. I was being ironic.

I have considered your articles, and my comment for them would be ... Big whoop.

Big whoop? Good argument there, I'll have to have a long think about that one.

I fail to see how celebrating things like the living wage is a bad thing.

Congratulations. In saying that you've shown you've completely missed the point.

Of course you don't see how it is a bad thing because you agree with it. Someone from a different political persuasion would disagree with you and say the opposite. The point is that the teaching profession is supposed to be equipping the coming generation with the ability to form a balanced view of their own, not indoctrinating them with the left wing version of what is right.

I also fail to see how feminists are left wing, feminism is a liberal belief. You can get right wing liberals and left wing liberals, confusing liberalism for being left wing is a classic and increasingly common error. If anything anti-platforming is a liberal issue, not a left wing one.

Most feminists, particularly activists of the type who stage anti abortion protests, are left wing. Minority/identity politics is a hobby horse of the left. Being anti abortion is a hobby horse of the left. If I was a betting man I'd take a punt that the protestors in question are left of centre.

When I was at university, student activists are also invariably left wing. The right wingers were either in the library or out drinking.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

If anything anti-platforming is a liberal issue, not a left wing one.

Anybody who wishes to censor anybody else’s opinion because they don’t like it shouldn’t call themselves liberal.

 

[bramling]

I fail to see how celebrating things like the living wage is a bad thing.

Maybe not, but like most things there are potential costs associated with it. Just thinking of a couple of examples off the top of my head, it might cause prices to go up, it might cause taxes to have to go up, it might mean firms lay off workers to keep costs down thus increasing unemployment.

Someone may quite reasonably consider these are prices worth paying, another might think they are unlikely to occur in practice, whilst another might think these drawbacks are too great and look for a different solution to the problem. Whatever, that would be the result of a balanced debate considering the benefits and costs. "I support the living wage because it pays people more" is too simplistic.

 

[fowler9]

The problem is that for a capitalist society to work someone has to loose unless you have the socialist aspect to back up the losers. My employer has told me that we are not getting a pay rise until the living wage comes in. Ergo in one of the wealthiest economies in the world they can afford to pay us more but won't until they are forced to.

 

[bramling]

The problem is that for a capitalist society to work someone has to loose unless you have the socialist aspect to back up the losers.

Hence why most people are somewhere around the centre ground, and it's generally accepted that this is also where the votes lie. Unfortunately things have gone a little haywire recently, for various reasons which I don't think are fully known / understood.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It is interesting but totally unsurprising that Conservatives are inconsistent (some might say duplicitous). This is a party that allows 15 year-olds to have a substantial role:
https://www.rutlandmeltonconservatives.org/become-conservative-party-member

Any person living in the United Kingdom is eligible to join the Conservative Party. Applicants are not required to be registered voters or UK nationals. There is no upper or lower age limit on membership, although children under the age of 15 cannot be enrolled as full voting members.

Gosh! So a 5-year-old could become a member of the Conservatives? (Albeit without voting rights)?

 

[43021HST]

It's a left of centre paper. I was being ironic.

Yes I was quite aware thank you

Big whoop? Good argument there, I'll have to have a long think about that one.

My turn to explain my own sense of off-beat (humour?) now I've had a flavour of yours. I will explain: 'Big Whoop', means that I felt the piece to not say anything real at all, despite you presenting it to be some sort of empirical evidence.

As you see underneath my remark on my previous post, I've elaborated as to what I thought that about the piece, it was all anecdotal evidence, and I felt the author was pretending to be partisan, (a common cliche by many right wing journalists), in order try and gain the moral high ground.

Congratulations. In saying that you've shown you've completely missed the point.

I'm sorry you feel that way, however not agreeing with someone is different to understanding a 'point'.

Of course you don't see how it is a bad thing because you agree with it. Someone from a different political persuasion would disagree with you and say the opposite. The point is that the teaching profession is supposed to be equipping the coming generation with the ability to form a balanced view of their own, not indoctrinating them with the left wing version of what is right.

Yes I understand that is my opinion, however in schools we do also study many right wing aspects, my history lessons use to extensively cover the failures of communism, the positives of entrepreneurship and the free-market etc. We have whole GCSEs dedicated to business and the free-market. If that's not being exposed to the rightwing viewpoint than I don't know what is. I agree it's good for children to be exposed to both view points. The issue the right has with teachers is similar to the rights problem with the BBC, the fact the left wing viewpoint does get represented.

Most feminists, particularly activists of the type who stage anti abortion protests, are left wing. Minority/identity politics is a hobby horse of the left. Being anti abortion is a hobby horse of the left. If I was a betting man I'd take a punt that the protestors in question are left of centre.

That's a far too simplistic way of seeing things. The way I see it most peoples political opinion is a compass rather than a single spectrum, East and West would be Left and Right. North and South would be Liberal vs Authoritarian, Left and right is purely an economic standpoint and whether you believe in the state handling the majority of the functions of a country or the freemarket. Liberal vs authoritarian is about how much liberty you believe individuals are entitled to.

You can have right wing liberals, IE the conservative party because they believe in the free-market and believe in individual liberty, eg they legalised gay marriage, Thatcher was very much about the financial liberty of private individuals and companies. You can also have left wing authoritarians, such as Stalin and the Kim Jong Un dynasty, etc.
So minority/identity politics being a hobby horse of the left is far too simplistic, they're many lefties who believe that identity politics is a distraction from the class/economic struggle so would agree with many of those you'd identify as being on the right and Vice Versa.

I hope that clears things up for you.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My turn to explain my own sense of off-beat (humour?) now I've had a flavour of yours. I will explain: 'Big Whoop', means that I felt the piece to not say anything real at all, despite you presenting it to be some sort of empirical evidence.

I've now had a look at the two articles BromleyBoy posted. Both clearly give anecdotal evidence of a problem in the two schools referred to. I wouldn't dismiss that entirely - anecdotal evidence can often be the first indication of a wider problem that needs investigating. But at the same time, the articles certainly don't by themselves prove there is a massive problem of schools 'indoctrinating' pupils. It's also worth noting that the Spectator article is written by a supply teacher who was dismissed. If the events described in that article are completely true (and there's nothing important missing), then it would amount to quite shocking treatment of the individual. On the other hand, it's not uncommon for people who have been dismissed to (understandably, given human nature) feel very angry against their former colleagues, and it's impossible to know whether that coloured what was written in the article. Certainly, my gut reaction on seeing those articles is roughly one of, that's interesting. Worth keeping an eye out to hear if anything else corroborates it. But no panic yet.

 

[fowler9]

Maturity clearly isn't an age thing by the sounds of it. Maybe power just gets to those in management or Westminster that they think they can act as unprofessional as they like. I don't know, I am not very knowledgeable on the working world myself.

So as someone who started the entire thread based on not wanting people to be able to vote based on their age you also think maturity clearly has nothing to do with age?

 

[fowler9]

Hence why most people are somewhere around the centre ground, and it's generally accepted that this is also where the votes lie. Unfortunately things have gone a little haywire recently, for various reasons which I don't think are fully known / understood.

I think at least in the UK everyone knows the reason. The monied elite like Boris Johnson aren't wealthy because of their specific skills. That is why there a vast problem with equality. If I am wrong doubtless someone can tell me why the hell he is the foreign secretary.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

So as someone who started the entire thread based on not wanting people to be able to vote based on their age you also think maturity clearly has nothing to do with age?

After over 180 posts by different people of different opinions and backgrounds, did you expect me to not take other views into consideration?

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes I was quite aware thank you


My turn to explain my own sense of off-beat (humour?) now I've had a flavour of yours. I will explain: 'Big Whoop', means that I felt the piece to not say anything real at all, despite you presenting it to be some sort of empirical evidence.

Fair enough, it just seemed a strange term to use.

I'm aware it's not empirical evidence as such but certainly raises cause for concern, being written by teaching staff with a wider experience than any one individual pupil who has passed through the system. Note the staff concerned are only arguing for a balanced case to be presented to pupils, not for either right or left wing views to be favoured. Your immediate assessment of them as (shock horror) "rather Tory teachers" is an interesting turn of phrase giving an insight into your own bias. So what if they are Tory?

I also note your previous post appeared to present your own anecdotal experience of school as empirical evidence to refute the suggestion of left wing bias with absolutely no supporting documentation being offered.

I'm sorry you feel that way, however not agreeing with someone is different to understanding a 'point'.

This statement gives me cause for concern that you still haven't actually taken on board my original point. You previously stated said you "fail to see how celebrating...the living wage is a bad thing". That is not what we are agreeing or disagreeing on (note, I've not told you my viewpoint on the living wage, it is irrelevant).

You still don't appear to be able to look beyond your own personally biased view to see that, in a educational context, you shouldn't be "celebrating" any political strategy, irrespective of your own viewpoint on the subject. Would you be so happy for teachers to celebrate something you do not agree with - the BREXIT referendum result, perhaps?

The point is that concepts such as living wage, BREXIT etc. should be described to pupils, their advantages and disadvantages should be discussed but the teacher should not be "celebrating" any particular political view point of them based on their own personal political views.

If teachers are doing their job properly I'd suggest their pupils should be completely unable to guess what the teacher's personal stance on the subject is (I had a teacher who impressively achieved precisely this with my class, despite teaching us economics a level for two years).

I agree it's good for children to be exposed to both view points.

We can most certainly agree on this point .

That's a far too simplistic way of seeing things. The way I see it most peoples political opinion is a compass rather than a single spectrum, East and West would be Left and Right. North and South would be Liberal vs Authoritarian, Left and right is purely an economic standpoint and whether you believe in the state handling the majority of the functions of a country or the freemarket. Liberal vs authoritarian is about how much liberty you believe individuals are entitled to.

You can have right wing liberals, IE the conservative party because they believe in the free-market and believe in individual liberty, eg they legalised gay marriage, Thatcher was very much about the financial liberty of private individuals and companies. You can also have left wing authoritarians, such as Stalin and the Kim Jong Un dynasty, etc.
So minority/identity politics being a hobby horse of the left is far too simplistic, they're many lefties who believe that identity politics is a distraction from the class/economic struggle so would agree with many of those you'd identify as being on the right and Vice Versa.

I hope that clears things up for you.

I agree left v right doesn't necessarily predict whether someone is liberal v authoritarian, or vice versa.

However being left or right wing is not "purely an economic stand point" as you put it, but is a broad determinant of a range of social political and economic viewpoints someone is likely to hold (left v right wing actually originates from the seating arrangements in the French parliament following the French Revolution). If someone tells me they are right wing I would expect them to favour the free market but I might also expect them to favour longer prison sentences, traditional family values, tougher control of immigration etc.

With respect if you aren't aware that being strongly pro abortion, pro femininist and the championing of minority politics are stances more typically associated with the left of the UK political spectrum, that would suggest you haven't spent a great deal lot of time looking into UK politics.
​

 

[Bromley boy]

I've now had a look at the two articles BromleyBoy posted. Both clearly give anecdotal evidence of a problem in the two schools referred to. I wouldn't dismiss that entirely - anecdotal evidence can often be the first indication of a wider problem that needs investigating. But at the same time, the articles certainly don't by themselves prove there is a massive problem of schools 'indoctrinating' pupils. It's also worth noting that the Spectator article is written by a supply teacher who was dismissed. If the events described in that article are completely true (and there's nothing important missing), then it would amount to quite shocking treatment of the individual. On the other hand, it's not uncommon for people who have been dismissed to (understandably, given human nature) feel very angry against their former colleagues, and it's impossible to know whether that coloured what was written in the article. Certainly, my gut reaction on seeing those articles is roughly one of, that's interesting. Worth keeping an eye out to hear if anything else corroborates it. But no panic yet.

Yes I broadly agree with the above, although I reckon I'm slightly further down the road of believing there to be a problem than you are, taking things in the round. I'd generally attach more weight to articles such as this than our individual experiences of education when we passed through the system years ago although, as you quite rightly say, they are still only anecdotal.

Certainly the problem, such as there is, appears to be more advanced in universities. I think the no platforming issue, in particular, is now widely acknowledged and has become a mainstream cause for concern, including for many who would identify as left of centre politically.

 

[Busaholic]

.

Certainly the problem, such as there is, appears to be more advanced in universities. I think the no platforming issue, in particular, is now widely acknowledged and has become a mainstream cause for concern, including for many who would identify as left of centre politically.

That's me, a lefty who's anti anti- platforming, if you see what I mean.

 

[Bromley boy]

That's me, a lefty who's anti anti- platforming, if you see what I mean.

Good for you.

I have some very left of centre friends who would agree with you. They want to hear a counter argument and engage with it. It’s just a vociferous minority who let the side down.

We should all be able to debate our political views freely, and learn from doing so, irrespective of where we sit on the left-right political spectrum.

 

[HSTEd]

Hence why most people are somewhere around the centre ground, and it's generally accepted that this is also where the votes lie. Unfortunately things have gone a little haywire recently, for various reasons which I don't think are fully known / understood.

I don't think there are any actual votes in the 'true' centre-ground.

Because the centre-ground appears to believe in nothing at all in the eyes of the voters.

The distribution is not a normal curve, it has at least two peaks which are considerably off centre, with few at each end and even fewer in the middle.
This is why triangulation leads to parties inevitably losing as they gradually lose more and more of their own 'side' of the curve whilst gaining fewer and fewer votes in the middle.

 

[GusB]

Apparently it was filibustered, so there was no vote. I'm looking for a quotable source.

 

[Class 466]

Apparently it was filibustered, so there was no vote. I'm looking for a quotable source.

Yep... the Conservatives (surprise surprise) dragged it all out so that the vote couldn’t take place. We now have to wait until 01 December for the next chance.

The Conservatives really don’t want this to go through because they know they don’t have a chance of clinging onto power.

What an abysmal government we now have in this country.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

The Conservatives really don’t want this to go through because they know they don’t have a chance of clinging onto power.

Considering that the Conservatives were able to lose Canterbury, a seat which they held for over a century, simply because of youngsters turning out to vote Labour, can you blame them for trying?

 

[fowler9]

Considering that the Conservatives were able to lose Canterbury, a seat which they held for over a century, simply because of youngsters turning out to vote Labour, can you blame them for trying?

Can't blame them for trying, it's not very democratic though. You said yourself that age is not related to maturity.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Can't blame them for trying, it's not very democratic though. You said yourself that age is not related to maturity.

Nah, not particularly democratic. This has happened before where one Tory spoke for ninety minutes just to avoid debate about things to do with the NHS. Junior Doctors it was I believe. I just hope that MPs making the maturity argument aren't failing to meet their own standards.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Can't blame them for trying, it's not very democratic though. You said yourself that age is not related to maturity.

Nah, not particularly democratic. This has happened before where one Tory spoke for ninety minutes just to avoid debate about things to do with the NHS. Junior Doctors it was I believe. I just hope that MPs making the maturity argument aren't failing to meet their own standards.

To be pedantic, filibustering to avoid a vote is clearly undemocratic, and I think most of us would agree is a pretty atrocious way for Parliament to work, and the rules that allow or even encourage it really ought to be revised. However, I don't think it has any relevance to age or maturity. It's hardly immature to use the processes that are provided for by the rules of Parliament to seek to advance the policies you want - even though in the case of filibustering you might argue it's unethical.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

To be pedantic, filibustering to avoid a vote is clearly undemocratic, and I think most of us would agree is a pretty atrocious way for Parliament to work, and the rules that allow or even encourage it really ought to be revised. However, I don't think it has any relevance to age or maturity. It's hardly immature to use the processes that are provided for by the rules of Parliament to seek to advance the policies you want - even though in the case of filibustering you might argue it's unethical.

Hmm, yeah I suppose so. After all, maturity isn't just defined by the way you act, but the way you act does define you as a person. I mean if the rules allow it then there's fault with the system as well, even if it is down to the person when it comes to filibustering. I think that the system needs to rule this out and make sure there is time for a vote, because democracy is suppose to be more than a decision making process, yet in this case a decision can't even be made. I still think that 16 is a bit young, but given the inconsistent laws that allow them to join the army and pay tax (which I've argued they're too young for) I can't say I'd be angry about giving them a say over it.

 

[Barn]

Filibustering or, in UK vernacular, "talking out" has been an established part of the private members' bill procedures for some time. It's not very dignified, and doesn't look very good to observers, but there isn't anything unusual about this particular bill in this respect.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I still think that 16 is a bit young, but given the inconsistent laws that allow them to join the army and pay tax (which I've argued they're too young for) I can't say I'd be angry about giving them a say over it.

I think there is a loan advert on TV at present (Amigo Loans) that specifically mentions the age of 18 in its script.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently it was filibustered, so there was no vote. I'm looking for a quotable source.

I've had enough of filibustering. Time to make it an offence with a severe penalty. (Or simply to guarantee time for a vote on the end of all debates where one would be due). It is the very definition of antidemocratic.