Votes for 16

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst a perfectly valid view it is not one I share. My views on society and how that should function wont change. They are not reflected in Conservative ideology and I do not believe that such an ideology will delver the kind of society I want to see.

Do you not, however, find any crossover with the Liberal Democrats?

 

[43021HST]

I've always found it disappointing that nowadays it seems accepted for teachers to try to push their political views onto children.

A complete load of tommyrot! This belief that there's this coordinated effort for teachers to be pushing their beliefs onto children is complete nonsense. I was in school not that long ago and I remember only one instance of a teacher admitting her political views, and it was an admission rather than an active effort to persuade the children.

The only coordinated effort to force their opinions upon others is the right wing press. The reason why the press have waged this campaign against teachers for so long, is purely because they're part of the public sector. It's also part of this anti-intellectual sentiment, that's rife within the right-wing press. An uneducated prole is a subservient prole.

 

[DarloRich]

Do you not, however, find any crossover with the Liberal Democrats?

Perhaps - My dislike for Corbyn made me explore their views more deeply. However I just couldn't take them seriously as a political force.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps - My dislike for Corbyn made me explore their views more deeply. However I just couldn't take them seriously as a political force.

This, of course, is why PR and a circular chamber would be a good thing. That way no vote is wasted.

 

[Bromley boy]

Hard-left extremists? Wha? Where did you get that from?

Corbyn is a classic European socialist. Slightly further left than we are accustomed to here, but certainly not far left in somewhere like Germany. A lot closer to what Labour was in the 80s and 90s than the pseudo-Tory party that was led by Blair.

I don't think that is a controversial viewpoint.

Corbyn and McDonnell have both praised Marx (McDonnel has even said "I'm a marxist"), praised the regime in Venezuela etc. Both have long histories of going on record expressing what many observers have considered to be hard left political views. In my view they are to the far left of the political spectrum and are being moderated, for the moment, by the rump of moderate labour MPs.

I happen To believe Corbyn is honest in his principles but worry he is a useful idiot for the shadowy, indisputably hard left, "Momentum" group who see the Corbyn movement as a way to achieve power.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I happen To believe Corbyn is honest in his principles but worry he is a useful idiot for the shadowy, indisputably hard left, "Momentum" group who see the Corbyn movement as a way to achieve power.

Anything for them to achieve their lifelong dream of turning Great Britain into the next example of not real socialism...

 

[DarloRich]

I do have beliefs. I am a classical liberal who is non-partisan and who votes for the party I agree with most on the issues that are important to me at the time. I am not a single issue voter, however.

I could’ve voted Conservative because it seemed they were the only ones commited to Brexit, but I hated their other policies. I didn’t agree with Jeremy Corbyn when it came to some things such as when he described Islam as a “wonderful faith” (because as I’ve said before I think the Abrahamic religions are cancerous) but I agreed with some nationalisation policies such as railways, and accordingly managed migration because having a number doesn’t really help when you might need more or not need as much immigrants.

I respect your right to be a lifelong Labour voter, but I think partisan politics almost makes it out to be like football where you have to pick a team and stick with it. I think you should vote based on the issues that matter to you most at the time regardless of whether you like the leader or party. Hold your nose when crossing the ballot box if you must.

I am afraid i don't understand this view point. Perhaps I should "blow in the wind" like many and just go with the flow or take the route that delivers me the most personal benefit. It might be easier!

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I am afraid i don't understand this view point. Perhaps I should "blow in the wind" like many and just go with the flow or take the route that delivers me the most personal benefit. It might be easier!

Trust me it isn't easier. You find yourself struggling to chose who to vote for because there's either an equal amount of policies you like or because one side has more policies you like but you don't trust them to deliver it. As for the route that delivers the most personal benefit, that's not down to non-partisanism. In fact, you yourself have said you're Labour because they're more likely to deliver the kind of society YOU would like to see.

 

[Bromley boy]

I am afraid i don't understand this view point. Perhaps I should "blow in the wind" like many and just go with the flow or take the route that delivers me the most personal benefit. It might be easier!

Is it "blowing in the wind" or is it having the flexibility and intellectual curiosity to periodically review one's political views and allegiances as circumstances change.

I would suggest "going with the flow" more closely resembles choosing a party and sticking to it irrespective of how its views, or your own, may change over time.

 

[fowler9]

Corbyn may well be hard left himself but as a party the policies put forward in their manifesto would not be viewed as hard left in the rest of Europe. Also I was lucky enough to go to a well respected school, since leaving I have discovered that a lot of the teachers were indeed left wing, this was never reflected in our education though. In fact we had a debating society which was very popular and in which all views were discussed and the winner was voted for by the pupils.

 

[DarloRich]

Is it "blowing in the wind" or is it having the flexibility and intellectual curiosity to periodically review one's political views and allegiances as circumstances change.

I would suggest "going with the flow" more closely resembles choosing a party and sticking to it irrespective of how it's views, or your own, may change over time.

Just because i don't agree with Conservative policy doesn't mean i don't read and consider them or try to understand their views and motivations. How shall I complain about them if i don't know what they stand for

 

[Bromley boy]

Corbyn may well be hard left himself but as a party the policies put forward in their manifesto would not be viewed as hard left in the rest of Europe. Also I was lucky enough to go to a well respected school, since leaving I have discovered that a lot of the teachers were indeed left wing, this was never reflected in our education though. In fact we had a debating society which was very popular and in which all views were discussed and the winner was voted for by the pupils.

I agree with you on the manifesto but remember there is still a large rump of moderate Labour MP's (although momentum is doing its best to deselect them) acting as a moderating force.

Debating societies are very much to be encouraged and it sounds like yours was a good one. The trouble is the left are increasingly stifling open debate in universities via "safe spaces" and "no platforming" - you'll recall we discussed this recently in connection with the King's College abortion debate which was shut down by feminist agitators who chanting slogans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The trouble is the left are increasingly stifling open debate in universities via "safe spaces" and "no platforming" - you'll recall we discussed this recently in connection with the King's College abortion debate which was shut down by feminist agitators who chanting slogans.

Yes, I have a huge problem with this. What those who disagree should do is take part and rationally prove that the motion is nonsense, not be shouting about "no-platforming". So let the racist or sexist speaker speak, then send them off with their tail behind their legs by way of quality debate.

One reason, indeed, for the fact that I am not represented directly by any party is that my view on many things (welfare state, provision of quality public services etc) is left of centre, but on free speech I am a complete purist - I agree with the freedom of speech elements of the First Amendment in the US and would support the same applying here.

Essentially I think anyone should be able to express any view they wish (views being separate from actions), however much I dislike it, but equally it is incumbent on people in society to be active in arguing against bad views like racism, sexism etc.

 

[fowler9]

Yes, I have a huge problem with this. What those who disagree should do is take part and rationally prove that the motion is nonsense, not be shouting about "no-platforming". So let the racist or sexist speaker speak, then send them off with their tail behind their legs by way of quality debate.

One reason, indeed, for the fact that I am not represented directly by any party is that my view on many things (welfare state, provision of quality public services etc) is left of centre, but on free speech I am a complete purist - I agree with the freedom of speech elements of the First Amendment in the US and would support the same applying here.

Essentially I think anyone should be able to express any view they wish (views being separate from actions), however much I dislike it, but equally it is incumbent on people in society to be active in arguing against bad views like racism, sexism etc.

I do totally agree with you folks on the no platforming. It does indeed sound like it has got worse at universities since I left the education system. From what I hear the school I was lucky enough to go to is still as good as always and is strongly supportive of all kinds of people. I would be happy for any sixteen year old there to have the vote. Thing is you would have to apply it across the board and from what other people are saying not all schools are as unbiased, that said a lot of these stories come from the right wing press.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To sum it up another way.

If a University Debating Society is unable to send someone away wishing they'd listened to the classic line "better to keep your mouth shut and be assumed an idiot than to open it and prove it", then it does not deserve the name.

 

[bb21]

The only coordinated effort to force their opinions upon others is the right wing press. The reason why the press have waged this campaign against teachers for so long, is purely because they're part of the public sector. It's also part of this anti-intellectual sentiment, that's rife within the right-wing press. An uneducated prole is a subservient prole.

I like the term "anti-intellectual" very very very much. Absolutely, 100%.

 

[PaulLothian]

It is interesting but totally unsurprising that Conservatives are inconsistent (some might say duplicitous). This is a party that allows 15 year-olds to have a substantial role:
https://www.rutlandmeltonconservatives.org/become-conservative-party-member

(I originally read this somewhere else, but this page happened to come up first on an internet search.)

Become a Conservative Party Member
Being a member of the Conservative Party means that you have joined the most open and democratic political party in Britain. After the first three months of your membership, you will be entitled to a vote in Party ballots. You will also have a chance to influence Party policy by letting us know your views.

Any person living in the United Kingdom is eligible to join the Conservative Party. Applicants are not required to be registered voters or UK nationals. There is no upper or lower age limit on membership, although children under the age of 15 cannot be enrolled as full voting members.
We must capitalise on this current resurgence, and strive for a larger, stronger and co-ordinated membership.

The principal benefit of membership of the Conservative Party is the right to participate. Paid up members of the Conservative Party have the following rights:

• A vote in the selection of candidates for Westminster and Europe
• A vote in the election of Constituency Association Officers
• One member, one vote in the election of the Leader of the Party
• Representation on the governing board of the Party
• The opportunity to attend Party Conference
• Access to an Ethics and Integrity Committee to ensure high standards
• Social & Political events throughout the year
• Decisions on key policy ideas for the next General Election

While Conservatives are delighted to continue to disenfranchise 16- and 17-year-olds, they allow children to help choose their party leader...

 

[Bromley boy]

A complete load of tommyrot! This belief that there's this coordinated effort for teachers to be pushing their beliefs onto children is complete nonsense. I was in school not that long ago and I remember only one instance of a teacher admitting her political views, and it was an admission rather than an active effort to persuade the children.

The only coordinated effort to force their opinions upon others is the right wing press. The reason why the press have waged this campaign against teachers for so long, is purely because they're part of the public sector. It's also part of this anti-intellectual sentiment, that's rife within the right-wing press. An uneducated prole is a subservient prole.

Please would you comment on the articles I quoted from in post 141 above, one of which was published in that noted right wing rag the Guardian, both written from the perspective of teachers expressing concern at the left wing bias in education. Are these a load of tommyrot?

Do you also not see how feminists shouting down pro abortion speakers is the very definition of anti-intellectual?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

It is interesting but totally unsurprising that Conservatives are inconsistent (some might say duplicitous). This is a party that allows 15 year-olds to have a substantial role:
https://www.rutlandmeltonconservatives.org/become-conservative-party-member

(I originally read this somewhere else, but this page happened to come up first on an internet search.)



While Conservatives are delighted to continue to disenfranchise 16- and 17-year-olds, they allow children to help choose their party leader...

Outrageous on the half of the conservatives. I won't sit here and say 16 is too young while letting that one slide.

 

[Bromley boy]

I like the term "anti-intellectual" very very very much. Absolutely, 100%.

It sounds dangerously like a meaningless soundbite being used to suppress opinion to me which, in itself, is anti-intellectual.

 

[Bromley boy]

It is interesting but totally unsurprising that Conservatives are inconsistent (some might say duplicitous). This is a party that allows 15 year-olds to have a substantial role:
https://www.rutlandmeltonconservatives.org/become-conservative-party-member

(I originally read this somewhere else, but this page happened to come up first on an internet search.)



While Conservatives are delighted to continue to disenfranchise 16- and 17-year-olds, they allow children to help choose their party leader...

Yep they need to get their house in order there... A ridiculous inconsistency in their positions.

 

[fowler9]

Lets look on the bright side, on this, a railway forum, we are being allowed to have an open debate about it, ha ha.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Lets look on the bright side, on this, a railway forum, we are being allowed to have an open debate about it, ha ha.

I have to hand it to them there. I've had a longer more civilised debate here than I ever did in college. Not cause of the opponents but cause the lecturers didn't let us debate during lessons...

 

[Bromley boy]

Lets look on the bright side, on this, a railway forum, we are being allowed to have an open debate about it, ha ha.

Indeed this forum is very good for that, and a very high standard of debate at that.

 

[fowler9]

I have to hand it to them there. I've had a longer more civilised debate here than I ever did in college. Not cause of the opponents but cause the lecturers didn't let us debate during lessons...

What can I say mate. It is 19 years since I left uni and back then we had all manner of debates (Not so much on my course itself as it was engineering as opposed to our views on politics) But amongst my friends I counted a member of the young Conservatives and people selling the Socialist Worker. For myself I am a dirty great Socialist, ha ha, but I am happy to chat about things. I don't want the UK to be like Soviet Russia, Communist China or North Korea, not even Venezuela. I do think Evo Morales has had a beneficial impact on Bolivia though. I'm happy to chat about it and that is how it should be.

 

[bramling]

A complete load of tommyrot! This belief that there's this coordinated effort for teachers to be pushing their beliefs onto children is complete nonsense. I was in school not that long ago and I remember only one instance of a teacher admitting her political views, and it was an admission rather than an active effort to persuade the children.

The only coordinated effort to force their opinions upon others is the right wing press. The reason why the press have waged this campaign against teachers for so long, is purely because they're part of the public sector. It's also part of this anti-intellectual sentiment, that's rife within the right-wing press. An uneducated prole is a subservient prole.

I didn't say it was necessarily happening, what I said was that it seems to be more accepted nowadays. When / where I was at school, I know for a fact that parents would have been lining up to complain if they felt political views were being presented in anything other than a balanced fashion. I'm not so sure that would be the case now, BICBW.

Incidentally, not all teachers are part of the public sector.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

What can I say mate. It is 19 years since I left uni and back then we had all manner of debates (Not so much on my course itself as it was engineering as opposed to our views on politics) But amongst my friends I counted a member of the young Conservatives and people selling the Socialist Worker. For myself I am a dirty great Socialist, ha ha, but I am happy to chat about things. I don't want the UK to be like Soviet Russia, Communist China or North Korea, not even Venezuela. I do think Evo Morales has had a beneficial impact on Bolivia though. I'm happy to chat about it and that is how it should be.

I'm certainly no socialist, but I admit that ultimately it's worker policies protect them from the pitfalls of unregulated capitalism. Funny how they can keep each other in check, and often the best countries in the world (in terms of quality of life) tend to have the mixed economy with economic capitalist policies and a few socialist programs such as the welfare state or worker's rights.

 

[KashmireHawker]

As an ex Member of Youth Parliament and Votes at 16 Campaigner, this standard of debate is very good to see. Another key debate on the topic will coincidentally be held tommorow, via Youth Parliament's annual sitting in the Commons Chamber; with it being one of the 5 topics chosen to be discussed through an annual 11-18 Year Old Ballots, which saw over 954,000 votes cast for 10 topics across the nation.

I'd encourage all to watch: will be streamed via Facebook and Parliament's website.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

As an ex Member of Youth Parliament.

Tell me, is it true that Youth Parliamentarians are more mature than those of Westmintser?

 

[bramling]

Tell me, is it true that Youth Parliamentarians are more mature than those of Westmintser?

I don't think Westminster is any less representative than society as a whole. A friend of mine once said that one of the depressing aspects of growing up from being a child to being an adult is that one starts to realise how childish many adults actually are, having as a child been brought up to respect adults. Certainly where I am a workplace team meeting discussing rosters or overtime is about on a par with PMQs.