Votes for 16

[Barn]

The 16-17 age group is particularly prone to manipulation by their teachers. Unfortunately, they have a bias towards a certain party that uses a lot of red in its logo and whose name begins with the letter L.

I wouldn't blame anything on any left-wing conspiracy by teachers.

However, just given the sheer importance of schooling and family time in their lives, 16-year-olds are more likely to have the opinions of parents and teachers rub off on them. They haven't had enough independent life experience to really develop their own opinions and then, absolutely crucially, to test those opinions against real world experiences. They are effectively challenging their opinions by the proxy of the experience of their parents and teachers, which just has the effect of duplicating views within the country rather than adding fresh ones.

Politically engaged teenagers today have the benefit of much more rolling news and online information, so I don't doubt that teenagers may be getting better informed. But the age at which these opinions are put to the test in the wild is getting later, not younger.

 

[bramling]

I wouldn't blame anything on any left-wing conspiracy by teachers.

However, just given the sheer importance of schooling and family time in their lives, 16-year-olds are more likely to have the opinions of parents and teachers rub off on them. They haven't had enough independent life experience to really develop their own opinions and then, absolutely crucially, to test those opinions against real world experiences. They are effectively challenging their opinions by the proxy of the experience of their parents and teachers, which just has the effect of duplicating views within the country rather than adding fresh ones.

Politically engaged teenagers today have the benefit of much more rolling news and online information, so I don't doubt that teenagers may be getting better informed. But the age at which these opinions are put to the test in the wild is getting later, not younger.

I've always found it disappointing that nowadays it seems accepted for teachers to try to push their political views onto children. Thinking back to when I was at school, in most cases things were presented in a very balanced fashion, such that even with the benefit of subsequent life experience thinking back to specific teachers in many cases it's still very difficult to guess what party they might have voted for.

There was one notable exception, who at the time was found to be a local candidate for one of the fringe socialist parties. He was noticeably frosty to certain pupils, and it's clear now with hindsight that this was directed at those who he evidently thought were more right-wing.

 

[Barn]

Well it is actually a legal requirement to be politically neutral - see sections 406 and 407 of the Education Act 1996.

When I was at school the actual political education / citizenship classes (such as they were back then) were very balanced, but you did get a few teachers of unrelated subjects (history, English, etc) who made their private political views public.

 

[fowler9]

When did this political conditioning start happening in schools? Is it really happening or have people just heard rumours of it in the Metro and Daily Mail? I never experienced it.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

When did this political conditioning start happening in schools? Is it really happening or have people just heard rumours of it in the Metro and Daily Mail? I never experienced it.

Can't speak for schools, but there has been a recent issue of 'de-platforming' at some Universities in the UK because some students care more about the 'right' not to be offended. I once read it in an article from a newspaper at the first class lounge at Euston station. Not sure if it was the Financial Times or just The Times. It depends on where you go and what you see really...

 

[fowler9]

Can't speak for schools, but there has been a recent issue of 'de-platforming' at some Universities in the UK because some students care more about the 'right' not to be offended. I once read it in an article from a newspaper at the first class lounge at Euston station. Not sure if it was the Financial Times or just The Times. It depends on where you go and what you see really...

You can't argue that it happens in schools and then say you read about it somewhere you can't remember and it was about Universities.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

You can't argue that it happens in schools and then say you read about it somewhere you can't remember and it was about Universities.

So because I can't remember the exact source of information, my argument is suddenly nullified? Had no clue it worked like that.

EDIT: Okay, maybe the response was a little over the top. I've already acknowledged that it's more of a university thing than with schools.

 

[Kite159]

Lots of 16-18 year olds nowadays are early Generation X. It's said that these may be the most conservative generation since the Baby Boomers, though I'd say this is disputable and could very well be wrong. At present the Millennial generation is more liberal, and being the future parents I'd say there will be a decent split at best. As DarloRich himself has stated, family influence is a big factor in some of your political beliefs. But then again, my family is full of leftists and rightists, so it'll probably be more to who they look up to that influences them. Luckily for me I won't need to worry about that because I don't plan nor wish to have children.

Isn't it Generation Z (or the 'iGeneration') the term for those born from the last 90s to now, i.e. anybody under 20, depending which expert you listen to at the start date of the generation.

The ones which have grown up with the internet & technology

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Isn't it Generation Z (or the 'iGeneration') the term for those born from the last 90s to now, i.e. anybody under 20, depending which expert you listen to at the start date of the generation.

The ones which have grown up with the internet & technology

Damn it! You're right, it is Generation Z . Maybe I should just keep quiet on this thread from now on

 

[cjp]

16,18,30,12,21 they are all just numbers.
How does a rational person decide that just one more day is enough to confer a right upon a person that being one day younger did not?
How about a different approach? Contribute nothing to society and so have no say in how society runs (or is run)? Or still living with ones parent then they get extra votes instead?

 

[Kite159]

Damn it! You're right, it is Generation Z . Maybe I should just keep quiet on this thread from now on

IIRC from my course I did a few months ago, the way Generation Z consume news is different to prior generations, they have a shorter attention span. The last election Labour won the online war with short sharp statements rather than the more lengthy statements issued by May.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

16,18,30,12,21 they are all just numbers.
How does a rational person decide that just one more day is enough to confer a right upon a person that being one day younger did not?
How about a different approach? Contribute nothing to society and so have no say in how society runs (or is run)? Or still living with ones parent then they get extra votes instead?

The problem with the approach is that many people struggle to get jobs. For example, people on the Autistic Spectrum have a high rate of unemployment, with just 15% in full-time paid work. A great number of them wanted to work though. Same for disabled people who can't walk for example. They won't be regarded as very desirable for common jobs such as customer service. Some people have severe medical issues that restrict them from working such as epilepsy, schizophrenia, or even anxiety and depression.

If you leave them without a vote then they will be at the mercy of the other voters deciding whether or not to bring in harsh policies that have affected the disabled greatly. Ian Duncan Smith isn't exactly a disabled man's ideal candidate. As for another person having your vote, some people will be at the mercy of parents who are so agenda driven that they will vote for someone against the person's will. Imagine wanting to vote Labour in a highly Conservative family? They will never know who was really voted for on their behalf since ballot papers are anonymous.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

IIRC from my course I did a few months ago, the way Generation Z consume news is different to prior generations, they have a shorter attention span. The last election Labour won the online war with short sharp statements rather than the more lengthy statements issued by May.

Some people just want to get straight to the point without elaborating. Having listened to Theresa May in the run up to the election, she can just drone on, and sometimes I just forgot what she was talking about. There's a perfect middle ground somewhere I'm sure.

 

[fowler9]

So because I can't remember the exact source of information, my argument is suddenly nullified? Had no clue it worked like that.

EDIT: Okay, maybe the response was a little over the top. I've already acknowledged that it's more of a university thing than with schools.

Mate with all due respect in your post which started the thread you said that there is an overwhelming number of left wing teachers and lecturers influencing young people. If all you can do to back that up is say you think you read somewhere that that was the case in some Universities then it does pretty much nullify your argument. Read your initial post. You don't just get to make stuff up and that is indeed how it works.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Can't speak for schools, but there has been a recent issue of 'de-platforming' at some Universities in the UK because some students care more about the 'right' not to be offended.

But that's not professors or teachers brainwashing students or restricting students' freedom of speech is it? It's students themselves restricting each others' freedom. It's arguably atrocious. But not remotely the same thing as teachers (allegedly) brainwashing students at school. (And also, reported cases of it are not the same as it being widespread. I've yet to see any reputable source that suggests de-platforming is widespread).

I once read it in an article from a newspaper at the first class lounge at Euston station. Not sure if it was the Financial Times or just The Times. It depends on where you go and what you see really...

Do you think that basing your opinions on a newspaper that you can't remember what it was makes you better qualified to judge who to vote for than your average student?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Do you think that basing your opinions on a newspaper that you can't remember what it was makes you better qualified to judge who to vote for than your average student?

To be truthful with you, even I've often questioned my own position when it comes to voting, so no I can't say I am better qualified. Good thing I never claimed myself to be either, that would've been real foolish.

Some days I just wish to be one of those hardline Conservative or Labour voters whose bound by lifelong family traditions of voting one single party. It'd have made both 2015 and 2017 easier elections for me, especially the latter. I was undecided until up to a whole week before the election, and it wasn't a particularly confident vote. The EU referendum was a right struggle as well, and if there was a second one I'll just be spoiling the ballot paper (I voted Leave originally) because it at least feels like I've used my vote.

 

[deltic]

16,18,30,12,21 they are all just numbers.
How does a rational person decide that just one more day is enough to confer a right upon a person that being one day younger did not?
How about a different approach? Contribute nothing to society and so have no say in how society runs (or is run)? Or still living with ones parent then they get extra votes instead?

How do you define contribution to society?

 

[Iskra]

How do you define contribution to society?

Paying income tax? (You'd need to find a way to include retired folk)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paying income tax? (You'd need to find a way to include retired folk)

A stay-home parent contributes to society by raising the people who are its future.

A volunteer contributes their time to society.

I think it's too narrow to define it purely financially.

 

[Barn]

It's a bit sinister to talk about restricting access to the franchise based on a person's "worth" to society. The only way to have a fair, democratic system is to have a clear criterion and to stick to it, not to have it floating around based on the view of present-day politicians. For this reason, the only sensible answer is to align the right to vote with the age of majority.

 

[Bromley boy]

You can't argue that it happens in schools and then say you read about it somewhere you can't remember and it was about Universities.

A quick internet search brings up these, quite frightening, articles written by current or recent teachers.

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher...her-school-echo-chamber-leftwing-views-labour

"Views that fall outside the accepted liberal-left spectrum get short shrift in my staffroom. I have watched teachers react incredulously – almost to the point of tears – when colleagues have tried floating a reasonable case for Brexit. This would be harmless enough if it did not put in doubt their ability empathise with views opposed to their own."


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/to-survive-as-a-tory-teacher-you-have-to-keep-quiet/

"According to my former colleagues, history teachers in an urban English state school, anyone who votes for the Conservative party is ‘thick’, the British Empire was ‘unambiguously evil’ and capitalism leads to ‘mass inequality and misery for the vast majority of working people’. The only answer was, you guessed it, socialism. Yes, the cliché of the Little Red Book-carrying schoolteacher is alive and well."

 

[DarloRich]

When did this political conditioning start happening in schools? Is it really happening or have people just heard rumours of it in the Metro and Daily Mail? I never experienced it.

It didn't happen in my school or university. If anything the school I went to was very Tory. As Labour man I was certainly in the minority. In honesty I spent most of my time at uni drinking, chasing girls, failing to sleep with most of them, drinking and revising to have much time for politics although there were plenty of clubs/groups from all across the political spectrum.

Some days I just wish to be one of those hardline Conservative or Labour voters whose bound by lifelong family traditions of voting one single party. It'd have made both 2015 and 2017 easier elections for me

I don't understand how you can chose. You pick a side and stick to it. Do you not have principles or beliefs? Elections are easy for me: Labour. I do not, have not and will never, agree with the Conservative view on life and society.

 

[Essan]

This highlights the problem with our gang based system

We are supposed to elect a Parliament. 650 of the best people in the country, each chosen by their peers to represent them in Westminster.

Instead, we elect any old useless dead donkey based on what gang they are in. And then wonder why we never seem to have any decent politicians these days .....

Allowing schoolkids to vote won't improve it.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't understand how you can chose. You pick a side and stick to it. Elections are easy for me: Labour. I do not, have not and will never, agree with the Conservative view on life ans society.

So is it fair to say that, for you, politics is a tribal matter similar to supporting a football team?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand how you can chose. You pick a side and stick to it. Do you not have principles or beliefs? Elections are easy for me: Labour. I do not, have not and will never, agree with the Conservative view on life and society.

I must admit that I think having sides is one of the bad things about UK politics. We need more discussion and consensus, not adversarialism.

But that aside, for me no one party adequately represents my views, and I have voted a few different ways over the years depending on context. None of those votes were extreme, but I have voted for all three main parties (the Tories only locally, though, as a protest against a particularly profligate and wasteful Labour administration in MK Council about 10 years ago) plus the Greens and independent candidates.

FWIW, MK Council is presently "no overall control" and therefore issues have to be debated on their own merits. I think this actually works really well at local level. I could be tempted to tactically vote to try to ensure this continued.

 

[DarloRich]

So is it fair to say that, for you, politics is a tribal matter similar to supporting a football team?!

Yes. I guess so. My principles & beliefs about how should society should work & my experiences of that society govern my choices. As I say I don't agree with the views and approaches of the Conservative Party so could never vote for them. That doesn't mean i agree 100% with Labour but that their stance is one that would allow, in my view, the kind of society i would like to see.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes. I guess so. My principles & beliefs about how should society should work & my experiences of that society govern my choices. As I say I don't agree with the views and approaches of the Conservative Party so could never vote for them. That doesn't mean i agree 100% with Labour but that their stance is one that would allow, in my view, the kind of society i would like to see.

I do find that approach quite worrying, although I realise many people share it.

Surely politics should be about surveying the views of political parties on a range of (ever changing) topics and voting accordingly. It shouldn't be about choosing a party and sticking with them irrespective of how their policies may change or who leads them.

This sort of thinking is what has caused the Labour Party to move from a left of centre mainstream party to one that is now being led by hard-left extremists, yet is still commanding a sizeable number of votes from the electorate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This sort of thinking is what has caused the Labour Party to move from a left of centre mainstream party to one that is now being led by hard-left extremists, yet is still commanding a sizeable number of votes from the electorate.

Hard-left extremists? Wha? Where did you get that from?

Corbyn is a classic European socialist. Slightly further left than we are accustomed to here, but certainly not far left in somewhere like Germany. A lot closer to what Labour was in the 80s and 90s than the pseudo-Tory party that was led by Blair.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I don't understand how you can chose. You pick a side and stick to it. Do you not have principles or beliefs? Elections are easy for me: Labour. I do not, have not and will never, agree with the Conservative view on life and society.

I do have beliefs. I am a classical liberal who is non-partisan and who votes for the party I agree with most on the issues that are important to me at the time. I am not a single issue voter, however.

I could’ve voted Conservative because it seemed they were the only ones commited to Brexit, but I hated their other policies. I didn’t agree with Jeremy Corbyn when it came to some things such as when he described Islam as a “wonderful faith” (because as I’ve said before I think the Abrahamic religions are cancerous) but I agreed with some nationalisation policies such as railways, and accordingly managed migration because having a number doesn’t really help when you might need more or not need as much immigrants.

I respect your right to be a lifelong Labour voter, but I think partisan politics almost makes it out to be like football where you have to pick a team and stick with it. I think you should vote based on the issues that matter to you most at the time regardless of whether you like the leader or party. Hold your nose when crossing the ballot box if you must.

 

[DarloRich]

I do find that approach quite worrying, although I realise many people share it.

Surely politics should be about surveying the views of political parties on a range of (ever changing) topics and voting accordingly. It shouldn't be about choosing a party and sticking with them irrespective of how their policies may change or who leads them.

Whilst a perfectly valid view it is not one I share. My views on society and how that should function wont change. They are not reflected in Conservative ideology and I do not believe that such an ideology will delver the kind of society I want to see.