Volunteer working

[Bookd]

I have read lots of debate on various threads about the issue of staff volunteering (or not) for various duties, particularly at weekends and Bank Holidays. I am unsure if the blame or responsibility (depending on your view) lies with the unions or the management.
On the one hand, for the best part of 200 years, anyone choosing to work for the railway would have seen that it runs for 7 days a week (and until recently 365 days a year) and as trains do not work on their own they could expect to work whenever the system is open.
On the other hand TOCs know that they have to operate 7/7, and sometimes with unexpected disruption, so why would they agree to contracts that require staff to volunteer in order to run their core business.
The whole principal seems to be dysfunctional, and needs someone to bang heads together to arrive at a more sensible arrangement.

 

[LowLevel]

It's cheaper for the company to employ less staff and rely on overtime - the unions if anything like Sundays in as it means more sub paying employees to cover it but employees tend to be less keen.

 

[dquebec]

A member of rail staff will pay more attention to the contents of his contract rather than how a business plans to operate a railway, and rightly so!

I am not rail staff, but an employee is not responsible for the allowing the "bigger picture" to succeed, i.e. a 24/7 railway.

Rail staff, like everyone else in employment, go to work to earn as much money as possible, doing as little as they can contractually get away with.

When considering whether you would like to join the railway, I suspect you aren't particularly interested in how your contract affects the customers, that is a management problem!

 

[grid56126]

The whole principal seems to be dysfunctional, and needs someone to bang heads together to arrive at a more sensible arrangement.

It has been like this long before I started in 1983 and it has survived privatisation, for it to have survived privatisation means there is no better financial solution.

This has got very little to do with the unions, despite people using that as a stick to beat their drums with. Thousands of staff have been and continue to be employed with these conditions today when staff could be taken on with Sundays in the working week.


There is one simple reason why they are not.

Money

 

[cf111]

I don't work for the railway, I am a civil servant and sometimes I have to either drag myself out of my bed at 3 in the morning or haul myself across the country to deal with a problem that nobody else can deal with. I like to think that I go out of my way considerably in the service of the tax-paying public which is genuinely something I take seriously (as well as a degree of pride in) as a Crown employee. The difference is that all of this is in my contract and I'm paid reasonably well for it.

If you employ someone on a contract that doesn't include working public holidays or at the weekend that it's at best incompetent and at worst sinister to start blaming them when you either have to pay extra to run a service or ultimately not run it at all. That is a planning and resourcing error worsened by the incompetent way we run the franchising system.

 

[Camden]

Rail staff, like everyone else in employment, go to work to earn as much money as possible, doing as little as they can contractually get away with.

Wow. Do you really believe this?

Don't you think that some people go to work and want to do a good job? The best job they can manage to do? For personal satisfaction and taking pride in their work?

Sure, everyone (most people) does it for the money, but "doing as little as they can contractually get away with"?? What an attitude.

On the subject in question, it's irrelevant. If the company want to run a 7 day a week service they obviously need a 7 day a week staff. Most ordinary shops couldn't/wouldn't run on voluntary overtime, why would anyone expect it to be any different for any other line of business.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm not sure I understand why its "dysfunctional" The UK has been a 9-5 Monday to Friday culture for as long as I can remember. 40hrs a week full time.

That same culture extends to the railway shockingly enough. Yes the buisness runs 24/7 but staff still require time off on a weekly basis. I really don't understand where your coming from. Is the expectation to be staff to work a 7 day week ?

Where is the starting point for debate ?

You need to put it in perspective. Its not just the railway that runs like this. We still have Sunday trading laws. We still have a culture where half the country closes on a bank holiday. Your allowed Bank holidays off but others aren't ?

Why should one person be allowed to work Monday to Friday and then demand weekend services from others who are then required to work ? Why is it acceptable for the bank to be closed but we demand the supermarkets to open 24/7 ? I go into Cannon Street on a regular basis and on a weekend its like a ghost town. The city closes on a weekend. Why does everyone seem to have a sense of entitlement ?

What about the buisness side of things ? Shall we start there and start debating employment contracts and employee costs ? I've been on the railway for some years now and my contract has changed considerably. When I was in retail my contract wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Do we really have the attitude, and one that was posted, that contracts should be changed and employees then forced to work ?

Everyone is demanding and bemoaning weekend working, and please remember that its VOLUNTARY but no one is offering up any real suggestions about how its changed.

As I have been on both sides of the desk I have an understanding of the issues from staff and management side. Other than contractual obligation, there is little that can be done directly to change the situation. Change requires time but demand is out pacing any change. I'm not even convinced that there is a significant demand. I have run these services and they are empty. With all the data crunching nowdays the demand can be laid out by the beancounters in black and white and they don't appear to believe it would be worth the significant costs.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't work for the railway, I am a civil servant and sometimes I have to either drag myself out of my bed at 3 in the morning or haul myself across the country to deal with a problem that nobody else can deal with. I like to think that I go out of my way considerably in the service of the tax-paying public which is genuinely something I take seriously (as well as a degree of pride in) as a Crown employee. The difference is that all of this is in my contract and I'm paid reasonably well for it.

If you employ someone on a contract that doesn't include working public holidays or at the weekend that it's at best incompetent and at worst sinister to start blaming them when you either have to pay extra to run a service or ultimately not run it at all. That is a planning and resourcing error worsened by the incompetent way we run the franchising system.

As an ex-civil servant I would often be asked to work overtime, including weekends, normally to get a badly run, under-staffed Department out of the mire. Funnily enough I often refused, even though my pay was rubbish and the extra would have been useful.

I joined the railway 8 years ago knowing that we ran a 24/7 service, but that Sunday working was voluntary although rostered, and that occasionally I would be asked to work overtime. I generally worked my Sundays, but have hardly ever volunteered to work rest days. Why should I? I work to live, not the other way around.

My Bank Holidays have always been rostered and the only way to get them off was to apply for Annual Leave, so you are incorrect in that point. My roster gave me every other weekend off. I look back at my Civil Service service and think of the extra days we got that have never applied on the railway (Maundy Thursday half day for one!)

If you want to introduce a 7 day week contract to employees then you are going to have to pay for it, not only in extra pay, but also in extra annual leave. On my railway roster all I get is 16 days a year; when I left the Civil Service I was on 28 days!! And it is no good saying that all new entrants go onto it, as it would make rostering almost impossible to do.

And I don't work for a TOC/FOC!

 

[6Gman]

My Bank Holidays have always been rostered and the only way to get them off was to apply for Annual Leave, so you are incorrect in that point. My roster gave me every other weekend off. I look back at my Civil Service service and think of the extra days we got that have never applied on the railway (Maundy Thursday half day for one!)

I once had to reschedule a meeting in London because the person I was meeting was off.

For the Queen's Birthday!

 

[A-driver]

As has been said, it's done purely as it's cheaper to employ less on a 6day contract and rely on volunteerin for overtime on the 7th. Employing on a 7 day contract would need substantially more staff who all need recruiting, training, managing, annual leave, national insurance, medical certificates, uniform, equipment etc.

Unions are pushing to get Sunday inside-not so much to get more members/subs but because they are there to stand up for workers and jobs and so having less staff working overtime goes against their main principles. In theory putting Sunday's inside could take another 100 people off the dole and into work. In theory obviously.

 

[Antman]

As has been said, it's done purely as it's cheaper to employ less on a 6day contract and rely on volunteerin for overtime on the 7th. Employing on a 7 day contract would need substantially more staff who all need recruiting, training, managing, annual leave, national insurance, medical certificates, uniform, equipment etc.

Unions are pushing to get Sunday inside-not so much to get more members/subs but because they are there to stand up for workers and jobs and so having less staff working overtime goes against their main principles. In theory putting Sunday's inside could take another 100 people off the dole and into work. In theory obviously.

I worked at a supermarket distribution centre that operated on much the same principle, they usually had to get a lot of agency staff in at weekends as there were never enough volunteers but that was still cheaper than employing more drivers.

 

[6Gman]

It's probably also worth pointing out the historical context of this.

Years ago Sunday train services were often very thin, and started later in the day. So relatively few staff were needed.

Pay was also (relatively) lower and therefore there was more incentive to volunteer for Sunday work.

My father (who was on the footplate 1947-77) used to volunteer readily to make ends meet. And he was not alone! Indeed drivers used to watch each other like hawks to ensure that Sunday work was fairly shared.

 

[Minilad]

It's probably also worth pointing out the historical context of this.

Years ago Sunday train services were often very thin, and started later in the day. So relatively few staff were needed.

Pay was also (relatively) lower and therefore there was more incentive to volunteer for Sunday work.

My father (who was on the footplate 1947-77) used to volunteer readily to make ends meet. And he was not alone! Indeed drivers used to watch each other like hawks to ensure that Sunday work was fairly shared.

Trust me. They still do!

 

[6Gman]

Trust me. They still do!

I am not surprised ...

A great railway tradition survives!

 

[moggie]

For every person employed there are Employers NI contributions to be paid, Employers Pension contributions, mandatory job training costs, paid leave and HR support functions.

And people wonder why it suites companies to to rely on voluntary overtime to fill weekend rosters. It's really not hard to fathom is it?

Is it any more expensive for a TOC to cancel a sunday service they can't staff, especially when NR will have a RoR possession on some lines for part of the year?

 

[Chrisgr31]

If you want to introduce a 7 day week contract to employees then you are going to have to pay for it, not only in extra pay, but also in extra annual leave. On my railway roster all I get is 16 days a year; when I left the Civil Service I was on 28 days!! And it is no good saying that all new entrants go onto it, as it would make rostering almost impossible to do.

And I don't work for a TOC/FOC!

Are you telling me you only get 16 days annual leave a year? Is that legal? We are told that are legally obliged to take 4 weeks annual leave (20 days).

 

[TDK]

I have read lots of debate on various threads about the issue of staff volunteering (or not) for various duties, particularly at weekends and Bank Holidays. I am unsure if the blame or responsibility (depending on your view) lies with the unions or the management.
On the one hand, for the best part of 200 years, anyone choosing to work for the railway would have seen that it runs for 7 days a week (and until recently 365 days a year) and as trains do not work on their own they could expect to work whenever the system is open.
On the other hand TOCs know that they have to operate 7/7, and sometimes with unexpected disruption, so why would they agree to contracts that require staff to volunteer in order to run their core business.
The whole principal seems to be dysfunctional, and needs someone to bang heads together to arrive at a more sensible arrangement.

Bank holidays on the railway, well with most companies are normal days and have no enhanced pay, Saturdays are linked into the roster so you have to do 3 out of 4 in a 4 week period. Sundays are either in the working week or as a driver you are committed to work your booked Sundays.

I am not sure what you mean about contracts that require staff to volunteer, never heard of such contracts and I have worked for 5 different companies. It would be useful for you post you evidence that you say is dysfunctional!!!

 

[Llanigraham]

Are you telling me you only get 16 days annual leave a year? Is that legal? We are told that are legally obliged to take 4 weeks annual leave (20 days).

Yes, that is what I get.
It is all due to the shift pattern we have based on our 12 hour shifts. Basically we work 14 shifts a month, so that works out at 16 days a year. It was a bit of a shock after 28 days A/L!

 

[WestRiding]

Yes, that is what I get.
It is all due to the shift pattern we have based on our 12 hour shifts. Basically we work 14 shifts a month, so that works out at 16 days a year. It was a bit of a shock after 28 days A/L!

So you actually get a lot more time off in return for working 12s. I presume you did not do 12s in Civil Service and get 28 days also?

 

[A-driver]

Well this thread rapidly descended from a sensible question to 'well you get a better deal than me so you should work everyday you are told to...'!

Regardless of the reasons, this is the way we have it as rail staff and not because the hugely generous companies give it to is but because over generations we have fought for these excellent conditions and are now fighting hard to keep them. Why should our good working conditions and pay be eroded to bring us down to the level of worse off workers? Why shouldn't we be able to keep what we have and other sectors be forced to improve their work forces conditions and pay?

This argument about AL vs days off just stinks of jealousy. That's all there is to it.

Rather than moan on here that we have it better, get together with your colleagues and start fighting to improve your own lot. I your workforce stick together you would stand a chance at improving things.

 

[455driver]

I have just done some calculations for my depot and to bring Sunday inside the working week would cost well over £600K per year but the current arrangement costs just over £475k per year, I was quite surprised at the difference.
So to bring Sundays inside would cost the company an extra £125k per year for no real benefit except once or twice over the franchise when Christmas falls over a weekend.

The TOCs are a business what would you do?

 

[bunnahabhain]

So to bring Sundays inside would cost the company an extra £125k per year for no real benefit except once or twice over the franchise when Christmas falls over a weekend.

That'll just be the minimum as well I'm guessing, I'd certainly be after extra cash for Sundays inside as I work an above average number at my depot. The way to go is to do what TOCs like LM and XC did this year and offer substantial bonus payments for rest day working and Sunday working over the December period. I know companies like Northern didn't offer anything and presume they struggled to fill all the turns as a result.

 

[Minilad]

That'll just be the minimum as well I'm guessing, I'd certainly be after extra cash for Sundays inside as I work an above average number at my depot. The way to go is to do what TOCs like LM and XC did this year and offer substantial bonus payments for rest day working and Sunday working over the December period. I know companies like Northern didn't offer anything and presume they struggled to fill all the turns as a result.

Just to clarify. It wasn't all grades that were offered these inducements. Not at XC anyway

 

[Trog]

I have heard it said that as a rule by the time training, NI. HR support etc. have been factored in it costs about twice someone's salary to employ them. Most of these costs are fixed per employee not per hour worked, and so stay the same regardless of the number of hours worked. So if you have an employee in at time and a half to cover a week-end shift, he/she is actually cheaper for that shift than for their normal single time shifts.

Have five employees in and that costs you 7.5 shifts worth of wages, but you avoid employing an extra staff member at 5 shifts of wages and 5 shifts of fixed costs. So the employer saves money, the staff get paid more, and everybody but the bloke down the job centre wondering why there are not many jobs going on the Railway is happy.

There is also a flexibility benefit to the company in that if you staff to cover the peaks you then have to pay people to do nothing in the troughs. Cover the peaks with overtime and in the troughs you just do not ask anyone in on overtime and pay nothing.

 

[Andyjs247]

Yes, that is what I get.
It is all due to the shift pattern we have based on our 12 hour shifts. Basically we work 14 shifts a month, so that works out at 16 days a year. It was a bit of a shock after 28 days A/L!

I thought everyone (including agency staff) was entitled to a minimum of 5.6 weeks annual leave in the UK now. If you work 5 days a week then that equates to 28 days (which may or may not include bank holidays) so 5.6 X 5 days = 28 days. (It could be 20 days that you can choose plus 8 bank holidays with dates that are fixed). If you work shifts then it's based on your shift pattern over an average week but you should still get 5.6 weeks. If you work part time, say 4 days per week then it's 5.6 X 4days = 22.4 days.

Some contracts may be more generous of course.

 

[Llanigraham]

I thought everyone (including agency staff) was entitled to a minimum of 5.6 weeks annual leave in the UK now. If you work 5 days a week then that equates to 28 days (which may or may not include bank holidays) so 5.6 X 5 days = 28 days. (It could be 20 days that you can choose plus 8 bank holidays with dates that are fixed). If you work shifts then it's based on your shift pattern over an average week but you should still get 5.6 weeks. If you work part time, say 4 days per week then it's 5.6 X 4days = 22.4 days.

Some contracts may be more generous of course.

Incorrect.
I don't work 5 days a week!
We have strange roster patterns on the railway.

 

[muz379]

I have read lots of debate on various threads about the issue of staff volunteering (or not) for various duties, particularly at weekends and Bank Holidays. I am unsure if the blame or responsibility (depending on your view) lies with the unions or the management.
On the one hand, for the best part of 200 years, anyone choosing to work for the railway would have seen that it runs for 7 days a week (and until recently 365 days a year) and as trains do not work on their own they could expect to work whenever the system is open.
On the other hand TOCs know that they have to operate 7/7, and sometimes with unexpected disruption, so why would they agree to contracts that require staff to volunteer in order to run their core business.
The whole principal seems to be dysfunctional, and needs someone to bang heads together to arrive at a more sensible arrangement.

I dont see how working arrangements that leave TOCs vulnerable to the effects of either a formal RDW ban , or the fact that during some periods the number of RDW volunteers will drop can be the fault of anybody but that toc .

I used to be a manager for a retailer , i would never have got away with trying to pin the blame on other staff for not wanting to stay and work later or work their days off to cover for a sick colleague . So why on the railway is it acceptable to try and blame the unions when trains cannot run because nobody has volunteered to come in on a day off .

During December with the mad busy trains at weekends and the fact that people will want to spend time with their family nearing Christmas the Tocs will notice a significant drop in volunteers for RDW . The ones that bury their head in the sand and expect "it will all be alright "will struggle to fill rosters . Those that offer additional incentives might find they can induce some people to come and volunteer for additional work when really they dont want too .

As for people working on the railway knowing it is a 7 day operation . We are all aware of this , at my TOC we work 3 Saturdays out of 4 and Saturdays are particularly hard to book annual leave for so unless you get them in early you have no chance of an odd Saturday off . I also work some Sundays , but as Sundays are extra this depends heavily on goodwill . And the fact that I receive a higher rate for Sunday working . Bank holidays are a normal working day so if you are due to work you work for no extra pay . Not that it bothers me

 

[ComUtoR]

With all the additional staff now working sundays and bank holidays are they to crew existing services or so that additional services can be provided.

What are the estimated costs of running additional services and projected income from those services. If we are increasing Drivers and services we need to increase support staff too. Platform, Cleaners, Revenue, Gates, Resource managers, etc.

Although Bank holiday is a normal day it is still a reduced service. The numbers required to run are minimal. A widespread increase in recruitment and new contracts for staff is a cost that far outstrips any benefits. Paying overtime and offering bonuses makes financial sense.

 

[pt_mad]

To cover a small station 17 hours a day 6 days a week Mon - Sat you only need 3 full time staff. There is often an area relief for sickness and leave. Bring Sundays into working week and staff booked in on a sunday have to be given a rest day in the week to make up for it. You then need extra staff. It is possible you will need 5 full time staff rather than 3 to cover a small station if you include sundays in the working week.

Although I think I'm right in saying the consulation document for the new 2017 West Midlands franchise talks of it being difficult to recruit volunteers for Sundays and it is desirable that the new franchise looks to address this. With that in mind it points to the DFT preferring Sundays as part of the working week as extra staff will be at the TOCs cost and not a concern of the DFT.

Interesting to wonder how they'd bring it in.

 

[Andyjs247]

Incorrect.
I don't work 5 days a week!
We have strange roster patterns on the railway.

Yes I'm aware that not everyone works a regular 5 day week. Or even a completely regular pattern every month. But for the purpose of calculating your entitlement to annual leave you would need to base it on a weekly average somehow - even if it means adding up everything you are required to work over the course of a year and dividing by 52. It's a bit more complex granted.

See https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights