VOIP - Why all the misinformation?

[Lucan]

Is this BS I'm hearing about the change of the landline phone system to VOIP? I am still on an analog landline phone, with internet, both with a single provider (not BT/Virgin/Vodaphone).

I keep reading that the "old copper wiring" and the "old master socket" won't work any more. And that "VOIP won't use copper wiring it will use the internet".
Here are some actual quotes :-

Entire streets will need to be rewired and everything underneath your feet will need to be cabled again to allow for the migration to VoIP lines. [Voispeed]
As traditional copper networks face decommissioning by 2027 due to The Big Switch Off [Moneypenny]
Calls will work much as they do now, but instead of travelling through copper wires, they will use Voice over IP (VoIP) technology. [CSPA]
VoIP is also more resistant to severe weather as the cables used are waterproof, and less prone to damage during a storm ...[gov-dot-uk]

Well, I am rural, and my phone and my "internet" reaches my house on overhead copper wires from a cabinet in a village a mile away (there is fibre to the cabinet), like a hundred or so other properties from that same cabinet. My wires come up a road by trees and get broken by branches every 3-4 years, and when that happens it takes around 6 men 2 days to replace 100 yards of wire involving four trucks, a cherry picker, chainsaws, 200 yards of traffic cones, and temporary traffic lights - 2 days to replace 100 yards of wire. Multiply my situation by 100,000 similar nationwide and there is no way that is going to be replaced by optic fibre by the end of this year. Moreover, like fibre, the wire is waterproof even if gov,uk don't think so.

I understand (also using common sense) that my analog phone signal is currently carried combined with the digital internet signal, and it is only the analog part that is being switched off. Not only is it logistically impossible to change my copper line to the premises (and everyone else's) to fibre for VOIP by 2027, it is also unnecessary - I just need a VOIP compatible phone to plug into an ethernet port of my existing internet router. Or my phone/internet provider has offered an adaptor to go between my old phone and the router to convert its analog signals to VOIP. They have said nothing about replacing my master socket or my copper wires from the cabinet.

So why does all the advice conflate changing to VOIP with changing from copper to fibre? They are two separate campaigns surely? No doubt one day there will be fibre to my premises but that is surely not essential for VOIP? Am I missing something?

 

[GusB]

I'm with BT and have Digital Voice. It's carried over the same copper wires that the old telephone service was, so the idea that they'll have to be replaced for VOIP to work is just nonsense.

 

[Northerngirl]

As far as I have seen, all the fearmongering is from dubious ISP comparison sites that have it in their best interest to get people to get new 'digital' packages. As I see it, its highly unlikely that VOIP will even be rolled out fully for a few years, and all that needs is potential a new router/microfilter, ive got a handset from the 80s plugged in to mine without any issues

 

[dgl]

I suppose it's like the "digital aerial" some people were told they needed for digital switchover, only the encoding was changed it was still an analogue wave that is being received.
To that point a loft mounted aerial from what looked like the start of BBC 2 got a perfect signal for digital TV at my Grans and even a built in loop aerial on an older Fidelity TV got a usable signal, and that was pre DSO.

 

[philjo]

I suppose it's like the "digital aerial" some people were told they needed for digital switchover, only the encoding was changed it was still an analogue wave that is being received.
To that point a loft mounted aerial from what looked like the start of BBC 2 got a perfect signal for digital TV at my Grans and even a built in loop aerial on an older Fidelity TV got a usable signal, and that was pre DSO.

In our area Channel 5 was using a different polarity so a new aerial was needed to receive it. the old one worked fine for the main BBC & ITV channels.

 

[Ashley Hill]

My Father only has a BT landline and no internet of any kind. Is this switchover free and do BT provide all the necessary gubbins and phone for free too! Will his bill go up?

 

[Sun Chariot]

My Father only has a BT landline and no internet of any kind. Is this switchover free and do BT provide all the necessary gubbins and phone for free too! Will his bill go up?

I don't know of anyone who has that same scenario.

With your father having no digital connection at all, it is highly likely BT will require your father to take - and pay for - a tariff offering digital line installation; and for a digital telephone. Your father (with your assitance, maybe, G) needs to contact BT to understand option(s) available to him.

My mother's analogue landline needs to be uograded (Utility Warehouse yesterday confirmed she can keep her current landline number) but she has internet Fibre To Cabinet; thus her upgrade will be limited to (free) adding Fibre To Premises line and (her cost) a new, digital landline phone to plug in her router (USB).

Her insistence on keeping a landline - and that her line is still currently analogue - is a limiting factor in choice of providers and tariffs. I searched all usual consumer comparison / switching sites: not a single one for her postcode; so she will need to pay for Utility Warehouse's (steeper) tariff.

My mother-in-law was notified by BT back in January and she had her FTP line added in April. She, too, had to buy a digital landline phone.

 

[JamesT]

I don't know of anyone who has that same scenario.
With your father having no digital connection at all, it is highly likely BT will require your father to take - and pay for - a tariff offering digital line installation; and for a digital telephone.
Your father (with your assitance, maybe, G) needs to contact BT to understand option(s) available to him.

My mother's analogue landline needs to be uograded (Utility Warehouse yesterday confirmed she can keep her STD number) but she has internet Fibre To Cabinet, so her upgrade will be limited to (free) adding Fibre To Premises line and (her cost) a new, digital landline phone to plug in her router (USB).
Her insistence on keeping a landline - and that her line is still currently analogue - is a limiting factor in choice of providers and tariffs. I searched all usual consumer comparison / switching sites: not a single one for her postcode; so she will need to pay Utility Warehouse's (steep) tariff.

My mother-in-law was notified by BT back in January and she had her FTP line put in back in April. She, too, had to buy a digital landline phone.

I'm interested in this having to buy a new phone thing. The installs I've seen have had an RJ11->BT socket adapter to allow plugging in your old analogue phone into the broadband router.

If it's Openreach doing the physical connection, I'm surprised you can't find several providers. BT, EE, Sky, Vodafone are just a few I'm aware of that will still offer digital voice landlines.

 

[GusB]

My Father only has a BT landline and no internet of any kind. Is this switchover free and do BT provide all the necessary gubbins and phone for free too! Will his bill go up?

BT supplied me with two additional wireless handsets free of charge (eventually), but the existing DECT handset that was already in the house worked fine. Instead of plugging it into the phone socket on the wall, the base station for the phone just plugs into a socket on the back of the router; the other two don't have wired base stations and only have charging cradles. I was also supplied with a wireless adapter for my corded desk phone.

Be warned that any internal extension wiring will stop working and while there are ways to get it working again, I haven't bothered. There was a thread about it here a few years ago. 999 calls also won't work but, other than this, the service is exactly the same. I've also realised that I have two additional phone numbers (03x} over and above my usual landline number, so I assume these correspond to the new handsets.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm interested in this having to buy a new phone thing. The installs I've seen have had an RJ11->BT socket adapter to allow plugging in your old analogue phone into the broadband router.

If it's Openreach doing the physical connection, I'm surprised you can't find several providers. BT, EE, Sky, Vodafone are just a few I'm aware of that will still offer digital voice landlines.

My mother's (PSTN) phone dates from 1995; and my mother-in-law's old BT phone was an even older vintage.

Sky won't port my mother's analogue line number to a digital line. They only offer her a new line number.
BT's "new customer, installation, upgrade, rental" charges for my mother's home location, are cost-prohibitive.
No other ISP offers a "internet plus digital phone line" service to my mother's locaton.

 

[Ashley Hill]

My Farther has 3 extensions that I wired in for him. So these won’t work once he’s potentially been upgraded . I expect he’ll tell BT where to shove their phone if he has to pay for anything. He does have a basic PAYG mobile.

 

[philjo]

My Father only has a BT landline and no internet of any kind. Is this switchover free and do BT provide all the necessary gubbins and phone for free too! Will his bill go up?

We had BT copper landline but with broadband from a different ISP through the same line which worked fine for the last 15 years.

BT then switched us over to Digital voice. There is no change to the landline - the same phone works on the same cabling. It still works in a power cut as the phone has no power source at this end.

However my broadband was disconnected as Digital Voice does not support split line services. So currently using an O2 4G dongle for broadband until I make other arrangements.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Thanks for your advice everyone. We await his BT’s upgrade with trepidation.

 

[edwin_m]

My Farther has 3 extensions that I wired in for him. So these won’t work once he’s potentially been upgraded . I expect he’ll tell BT where to shove their phone if he has to pay for anything. He does have a basic PAYG mobile.

Your new router should have a BT socket as mentioned above, and it's reasonably straightforward to disconnect the connection to the extensions from the old BT socket and connect it to the new one instead.

Note however that the router takes power from a mains socket. It's supposed to have a battery backup but after a prolonged power failure you will lose landline as well as broadband, whereas hardwired phones on the old system take their power from the line so aren't affected by a home power cut. People with health monitoring devices need to ensure these will still work, and the same applies to emergency call buttons although you may be better off getting one of these that works using mobile instead.

We abandoned the landline when we went over to the new system, as the saving for switching to broadband only more than paid for a modest usage contract on a mobile (which will work for free when on wifi).

 

[DerekC]

There is a lot of confusion about this. VOIP can work over either a copper wire or a fibre cable. What doesn't work over a fibre cable is an analogue (PSTN) phone. So the switchover to fibre means loss of the PSTN phone and forces you to use a VOIP phone like BT "Digital Voice". @edwin_m has set out the physical implications above.

Being on the ancient side, we have an emergency call box (it comes with the property) and this has now been changed over to one with cellular radio connections to two providers plus an ethernet connection to the router. Belt, braces and bits of string! It has a rechargeable battery. Unfortunately its communication with the user is still just as basic as the one my mum had twenty five years ago and reliability is worse, but that's another story!

 

[oldman]

I was given a 'free upgrade to full fibre' by EE/BT recently. Fibre run from the telegraph pole over the garden to the roof of the house, along under the eaves, then cable-tied to drain pipe and fed through hole drilled through wall to small powered device (ONT) attached to inside of wall. New router plugged into ONT. Existing landline phone can be plugged into router or into a free wireless adaptor which connects to the router. No need for new phone. No change to tariff.

Apart from sending an installer who hadn't been told it was not safe to climb the pole (four week delay while they brought in scaffolding), and not transferring the phone service to the router automatically (one week delay with the landline still using the old cable), it was a silky smooth process.

My sister had a similar experience with BT. She has a multi-extension landline setup (using the domestic wiring) which works as before, with the master phone plugged into the wireless adaptor. She also has a call-screening service which works as before. Again no new equipment needed.

 

[172007]

My Farther has 3 extensions that I wired in for him. So these won’t work once he’s potentially been upgraded . I expect he’ll tell BT where to shove their phone if he has to pay for anything. He does have a basic PAYG mobile.

Why have a landline and a payg mobile. How much wasted money has a landline cost him over the years.

Always puzzled me why society or the older generation have had mobile phones for years and still beem so obsessed with keeping a landline which is duplication. BT must habe made a hamdsome sum from landline lovera over the years.

 

[m0ffy]

Two different projects are being conflated by the media:

1. PSTN switch off - shuttering the dedicated analogue telephony network operated by BT.

2. Copper to fibre migration - a much longer piece of work Openreach are carrying out over the coming years.

Focusing on 1, most customers will have their telephony served via their existing broadband router’s onboard adaptor. Some customers will receive new equipment from their ISP.

For customers without broadband, there are two products being made available. One is a voice-only broadband line (which feels slightly oxymoronic), a low speed FTTP/FTTC service. The other is a transitional product, served from the exchange as an analogue telephone line, specifically for customers with life lines that won’t work with digital voice.

 

[edwin_m]

Why have a landline and a payg mobile. How much wasted money has a landline cost him over the years.

Always puzzled me why society or the older generation have had mobile phones for years and still beem so obsessed with keeping a landline which is duplication. BT must habe made a hamdsome sum from landline lovera over the years.

A landline (unless cordless) has the advantage that it is always in the same place. Also some elderly people struggle with touchscreens and the sheer complexity of mobiles. There are simpler ones (eg Doro) that have a keypad and still run apps, but I don't know how easy they would be in practice.

There are also gadgets available that claim to link a landline socket via Bluetooth so the same phones will work with a mobile, and also "fixed mobiles" that look like a normal landline phone but with a SIM card. I have no experience of using these and it was quite hard to work out just from their websites what they would actually do. Bluetooth DECT phones have been produced too, but all the ones I found appeared to have been discontinued.

 

[Snow1964]

Well, I am rural, and my phone and my "internet" reaches my house on overhead copper wires from a cabinet in a village a mile away (there is fibre to the cabinet), like a hundred or so other properties from that same cabinet. My wires come up a road by trees and get broken by branches every 3-4 years, and when that happens it takes around 6 men 2 days to replace 100 yards of wire involving four trucks, a cherry picker, chainsaws, 200 yards of traffic cones, and temporary traffic lights - 2 days to replace 100 yards of wire. Multiply my situation by 100,000 similar nationwide and there is no way that is going to be replaced by optic fibre by the end of this year. Moreover, like fibre, the wire is waterproof even if gov,uk don't think so.

I understand (also using common sense) that my analog phone signal is currently carried combined with the digital internet signal, and it is only the analog part that is being switched off. Not only is it logistically impossible to change my copper line to the premises (and everyone else's) to fibre for VOIP by 2027

I think you have been misled, there will still need to be a connection to your house, either the old copper cable from a street cabinet, or a newer fibre optic cable. Although I think in some remote areas a transmitted signal might be taking over to save cost of physical cable

If your cable runs through an underground duct, or is up on poles will depend on local conditions. Although having suspended cables under tree branches is not long term reliable, as cables can be damaged in storms.

What you are not getting from the selective info provided is what happens at the telephone exchange. The change is at the telephone exchange end, and the changes at your home are consequences of changes at other end of cable from your house. The historic way was your pair of cables end connected to a module on a rack in the exchange. In the early days was a GPO plugboard where a human physically plugged a connection into your socket (these were often on floor above 1920s and 1930s post offices). By 1950s and 1960s big new buildings were opened with racks of Strowger electromechanical switches (which clicked round depending on length of time the dial on your phone rotated back anti-clockwise to start position for next digit)

Moving on these bulky electromechanical switches were replaced by electronic units, by late 1980s a version known as system X was being installed (and in practice each upgrade took many years to roll out across thousands of exchanges). Once you had system X could flick the switch on back of new button phones and change from timed break to tone dialling

Moving on, into 2020s, and basically the old individual hard wired connections in the telephone exchange are being phased out, disconnected and subsequently removed. In simple terms VOIP just digitises your call and sends it over a fibre optic network instead of via the physical telephone exchange building for your area. In blunt terms the cost of maintaining the old system would require an huge standing charge on your bill if it was to continue into 2030s.

Ultimately BT will have lots of virtually empty former telephone exchange buildings, which presumably will be sold off to save ongoing costs

 

[Hadlow Road]

Why have a landline and a payg mobile. How much wasted money has a landline cost him over the years.

Always puzzled me why society or the older generation have had mobile phones for years and still beem so obsessed with keeping a landline which is duplication. BT must habe made a hamdsome sum from landline lovera over the years.

Mainly because, in our case, mobile coverage is so poor up in the Welsh hills. We use our various ‘phones for conversations and, of course, landline handsets (even the excellent if pricey BT Digital Voice) are lighter and more comfortable.

When or if coverage improves…

 

[najaB]

So why does all the advice conflate changing to VOIP with changing from copper to fibre? They are two separate campaigns surely? No doubt one day there will be fibre to my premises but that is surely not essential for VOIP? Am I missing something?

You are correct and have missed nothing.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Why have a landline and a payg mobile. How much wasted money has a landline cost him over the years.

Always puzzled me why society or the older generation have had mobile phones for years and still beem so obsessed with keeping a landline which is duplication. BT must habe made a hamdsome sum from landline lovera over the years.

I often had those very same conversations* with my parents, latterly with my mother; and - as part of trying to wean her off her perceived essential analogue landline, I discovered that she has it solely in case someone rings her! Her ex-TalkTalk tariff (it's now by Utility Warehouse) costs her to make calls, so she uses her mobile for that. Just.... no words!

Without generalising or discriminating, I have noticed people who fear digital technology and the pace of change (and of re-learning each new tech-generation) are more likely to have grown up without it. People born in the 1930s or the 1940s. The generation prior to me.

* My father had total aversion to digital technology. Refused to use the home pc / laptop (he retired before pcs appeared in the workplace), refused to learn or touch his car's satnav or multimeadia, refused to learn how to bank or shop online.
Only in recent times, is my mother actually online shopping - but she still takes a once-per-hour bus to collect her online food order from the shop!
So, years of trying: "you don't need to waste £360 a year on a landline - just keep your mobile turned on and charged', I had to admit defeat!

 

[Lucan]

My Father only has a BT landline and no internet of any kind. Is this switchover free and do BT provide all the necessary gubbins and phone for free too!

Although not my scenario, my ISP/phone provider offers such customers a special broadband connection to carry VOIP but which is not a full internet connection. Presumably it is of reduced bandwidth and cheaper.

hardwired phones on the old system take their power from the line so aren't affected by a home power cut.

Crikey! Are there still analog phones around that don't need mains power? I last had one of those about 25 years ago.

Existing landline phone can be plugged into router or into a free wireless adaptor which connects to the router. No need for new phone.

Some phones can, some cant. More recent ones are "VOIP ready", I guess with a switch underneath or an alternative socket. My landline phone is not recent enough and will need an analog>digital adaptor. I could buy a new VOIP capable phone, but my existing one is a special. Examples of the adaptor (recommended by my ISP) are Grandstream HT801 v2 and Cisco ATA 191 or 192. These connect to an ethernet socket on the router. Some routers (BT's more recent ones I believe) have an analog>VOIP adaptor built in, and a socket for an analog phone. I'm told however that adaptors cannot handle analog period FAX machines.

Always puzzled me why society or the older generation have had mobile phones for years and still beem so obsessed with keeping a landline

Where I live, mobile reception is poor and erratic. Nevertheless I would not have a land line if I did not use the internet because I hate to think what the internet would be like here on mobile.

My mobile is only switched on when I want to make a call when I am away from home. It is a cheap dumb phone on true PAYG (not the scam PAYG schemes where your remaining credit evaporates after a month); I rarely use it and it costs me almost nothing.

Ultimately BT will have lots of virtually empty former telephone exchange buildings, which presumably will be sold off to save ongoing costs

They are also making a fortune selling tons of scrap copper that has been replaced by fibre. The cynic in me thinks that is part of the push to fibre. I understand the advantage of fibre for trunk routes, but see no advantage for the last half-mile to domestic premises when with copper I am watching internet movies on my TV or PC monitor at their full resolutions. Fibre arriving at my house will just be another PITA to deal with.

 

[sor]

BT wants customers who have broadband to move to Digital Voice delivered over that broadband line. BT may want to tie this to a simultaneous free FTTP / "full fibre" upgrade if that is available, otherwise it's FTTC / "fibre to the cabinet" / "part fibre" over copper. Either way BT achieves their goal to get people off the creaking 40 year old equipment.

Customers who do not have broadband will likely move to "pre digital phone line" and literally nothing should change. Phone plugs into wall and works as it always did. New customers or home moves won't have this as an option though.

Sky, TalkTalk etc do not use that equipment and do not have to follow the 2027 deadline though in practice they are doing so anyway. Virgin own a separate legacy network and have the same reasons to bin it as BT do.

Moving on, into 2020s, and basically the old individual hard wired connections in the telephone exchange are being phased out, disconnected and subsequently removed. In simple terms VOIP just digitises your call and sends it over a fibre optic network instead of via the physical telephone exchange building for your area. In blunt terms the cost of maintaining the old system would require an huge standing charge on your bill if it was to continue into 2030s.

Ultimately BT will have lots of virtually empty former telephone exchange buildings, which presumably will be sold off to save ongoing costs

"VoIP" can mean a lot of things, even in BT's world. As someone has pointed out, BT is providing a transitional service called "pre digital phone line" where the copper line is re-connected to different, modern equipment in the exchange. It is still "VoIP" in so much as the box at the exchange is doing the conversion in the same way that the Smart Hub does it in the customer's home, just with more copper in between.

BT doesn't own the exchanges, they've been leased for some time, though eventually ridding themselves of the lease costs of 4000 buildings will represent a massive saving. Around 1000, typically in town and city centres, are going to be retained

They are also making a fortune selling tons of scrap copper that has been replaced by fibre. The cynic in me thinks that is part of the push to fibre. I understand the advantage of fibre for trunk routes, but see no advantage for the last half-mile to domestic premises when with copper I am watching internet movies on my TV or PC monitor at their full resolutions. Fibre arriving at my house will just be another PITA to deal with.

The fibre rollout is costing them tens of billions. They have recovered a couple billion from disused copper. At best it pays for some of the rollout, but it's not the cash cow you describe.

Full fibre / FTTP networks are far cheaper to operate, far more reliable, are not subject to all kinds of issues that the copper has, and yes - it can provide the faster speeds that many people want even if you don't. That is why it is happening and not just in the UK (other countries are far further ahead than we are)

 

[najaB]

Refused to use the home pc / laptop (he retired before pcs appeared in the workplace), refused to learn or touch his car's satnav or multimeadia, refused to learn how to bank or shop online.
Only in recent times, is my mother actually online shopping - but she still takes a once-per-hour bus to collect her online food order from the shop!

My parents are of similar vintage (Dad is 83, Mum will be 82 this year). They've adopted digital technology to differing degrees. Mum is quite happy to hope on to Facebook to see what's happening in the family, and uses online banking for most of her transactions. Dad uses the computer for some things e.g. email, playing games, but is loathe to use online banking or bill payment and would much rather drive into town and stand up in a queue to pay.

I've *very* slowly managed to convince him to actually set up online servicing for the main bills (water, electricity, internet, etc) but the systems in Barbados are both quite advanced and infuriatingly archaic - for example there's no easy to way to pay money between accounts at different banks online, and there's no standard system for direct debits, so you still have to manually log in to each provider and process the payments individually. Given his advancing age and recent slow cognitive decline this isn't as easy as it should be.

 

[jfollows]

BT wants customers who have broadband to move to Digital Voice delivered over that broadband line. BT may want to tie this to a simultaneous free FTTP / "full fibre" upgrade if that is available, otherwise it's FTTC / "fibre to the cabinet" / "part fibre" over copper. Either way BT achieves their goal to get people off the creaking 40 year old equipment.

Exactly.
That's me.
Ordered a new contract which comes with a FTTP upgrade "in due course" and I already have FTTC. Realistically, my broadband reliability has been excellent for years, and the new contract comes with an EE box which connects to the hub to connect over cellular service automatically if the broadband fails.
Number transferred.
I had two problems:

1. I couldn't connect the old DECT base station to the hub, until support identified that the hub was delivered with the socket taped over for some reason, peeled off and plugged in, all good.
2. Yesterday one of the new DECT handsets went mad with uncommanded diallaing of "9" which was embarrassing, I had to apologise to the emergency operator and disconnect the handset. Now been sent back as defective. Not a direct BT problem.

Power cuts - yes, theoretically, haven't had one in ages but I have a mobile phone anyway.

I didn't need or want the upgrade, but I'm not bothered that it's happened, and I understand the motivation anyway.

 

[oldman]

Crikey! Are there still analog phones around that don't need mains power? I last had one of those about 25 years ago.

You can still buy them.

Some phones can, some cant. More recent ones are "VOIP ready", I guess with a switch underneath or an alternative socket.

My 2012 Panasonic has no switch or alternative socket and the manual says nothing about it being VOIP-ready (or not). I also have an unpowered handset bought as a safeguard against power cuts before I had a mobile. Both work without any adjustment with the new EE router using the analog socket; other routers may be different. There may be antique handsets which won't work but it seems unlikely.

 

[najaB]

The fibre rollout is costing them tens of billions. They have recovered a couple billion from disused copper. At best it pays for some of the rollout, but it's not the cash cow you describe.
...
That is why it is happening and not just in the UK (other countries are far further ahead than we are)

A good example of this being Barbados, where the copper network has been completely closed, but the vast majority of the copper has simply been left in place rather than recovering it to make the supposed vast profits. If anything, the scrap metal thieves... sorry, independent contractors have made money through recovery of the copper.

 

[JamesT]

You can still buy them.

My 2012 Panasonic has no switch or alternative socket and the manual says nothing about it being VOIP-ready (or not). I also have an unpowered handset bought as a safeguard against power cuts before I had a mobile. Both work without any adjustment with the new EE router using the analog socket; other routers may be different. There may be antique handsets which won't work but it seems unlikely.

The big change that affects compatibility is when handsets moved from pulse-dialling to touch tone (DTMF). BT were still supplying pulse-dialling only handsets in the 80s and possibly into the 90s. New systems don't support pulse-dialling, so if you have one of those phones and tried plugging it into a router then it wouldn't work. You do get converter boxes if you're desperately attached to your old rotary dial phone.