Vision bus - students fall from upper deck window.

[Wyrleybart]

Is that an Enviro 400?

Think it was an NXWM Platinum of which Walsall depot have a number of 67xx on 15 plates. Gone are the days when they used older stuff on school runs, although I did see a Trident on a school bus in Pelsall last year.

 

[philthetube]

A large single glazed window will distort noticeably if you push it hard in the middle. Not entirely surprising that you might be able to do this enough to push it out of its frame. Yet another case for double glazing which is very rigid?

A Double decker weighs around or slightly over 12 tonnes fully load it and you are at close to 18, which is the max gross weight, you would need to go tri axle co allow double glazing.

 

[Russel]

Think it was an NXWM Platinum of which Walsall depot have a number of 67xx on 15 plates. Gone are the days when they used older stuff on school runs, although I did see a Trident on a school bus in Pelsall last year.

Just a standard E400, one of the pre-MMC examples.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sorry but that is exactly what you would expect to happen. Banging square in the middle, the flex/bow of the pane and it easily pops out. Its a rubber gasket, they're not nailed in and they're not meant to have kids throwing their body weight at them. I appreciate they are kids but if weren't doing what they were doing then this would not happen.

Put enough stress on a bonded window and that will give way too...

Only way you're going to prevent it is to go bonded double glazed - that would probably have enough rigidity for someone to run at it (and would have the added advantage of preventing condensation and thus the often complained about "smell of wee" which is just a musty smell). You never after all hear of people falling out of train windows which generally are bonded double glazed. But then that makes the bus rather heavy and increases cost as you'd probably need to go 3 axle. You could maybe put bars across to reduce the risk. But I do actually find it quite refreshing the way people are largely shouting "they were being stupid, they got their comeuppance" rather than "something must be done" about this.

 

[Russel]

Only way you're going to prevent it is to go bonded double glazed - that would probably have enough rigidity for someone to run at it (and would have the added advantage of preventing condensation and thus the often complained about "smell of wee" which is just a musty smell). You never after all hear of people falling out of train windows which generally are bonded double glazed. But then that makes the bus rather heavy and increases cost as you'd probably need to go 3 axle. You could maybe put bars across to reduce the risk. But I do actually find it quite refreshing the way people are largely shouting "they were being stupid, they got their comeuppance" rather than "something must be done" about this.

Why should the bus operators have to fork out on additional measures to prevent a repeat?

The blame and responsibility to prevent a reoccurrence lies squarely with the kids and their parents.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should the bus operators have to fork out on additional measures to prevent a repeat?

Why does the railway have to fork out to close level crossings because of accidents, near enough 100% of which are caused by misuse?

(It does show the classic difference in safety culture between road and rail transport, though)

 

[Starmill]

Why does the railway have to fork out to close level crossings because of accidents, near enough 100% of which are caused by misuse?

(It does show the classic difference in safety culture between road and rail transport, though)

A lot of things on the railway wouldn't stand up to a the majority of the weight of three or four teenagers to be honest, they would also break and cause injury. Hopefully they wouldn't also cause the same level of fall... We unfortunately do grandfather a lot of things in, even level crossings that absolutely wouldn't be allowed to be built now, that are nearly as dodgy on the trains. A pacer window was probably about the same as that bus.

Thankfully a lot of the dodgiest stuff has been retired by now. And if you were talking about a bus being built now then yes absolutely that construction shouldn't be happening.

 

[Russel]

Why does the railway have to fork out to close level crossings because of accidents, near enough 100% of which are caused by misuse?

I get what you're saying, but where do you draw the line, ban cars because people walk out Infront of them and get ran over?

As a kid, I remember falling off a carousel because I was standing up rather than sitting down as instructed, the telling off and the injurys meant I never did it again!

We need to be careful not to dissolve people of the responsibility of their actions because it will have the opposite effect to the one desired.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I get what you're saying, but where do you draw the line, ban cars because people walk out Infront of them and get ran over?

As a kid, I remember falling off a carousel because I was standing up rather than sitting down as instructed, the telling off and the injurys meant I never did it again!

We need to be careful not to dissolve people of the responsibility of their actions because it will have the opposite effect to the one desired.

The bus provider simply takes out an injuction against the schoolkids and prevents them travelling - leaving the parents with the problem. After all the bus company is obliged to provide safe transport for the kids that behave. As the kids were hospitalized there names will be available.
The buses are perfectly safe for the other 99.5% of passengers so no need for the bus company to upgrade, nor for the government to pay extra contract charges for such sillyness


Thanks to Russel for correcting me on the bus type

 

[Starmill]

Watched this video. I observed nothing that was not easily predictable force wise to the window so it should have been designed to withstand this incident. Wonder of it was weakened, seal cut or something.

Kids were doing this kind of thing in the 80's and 90's so the people responsible for the standards have no excuse.

When kids did this sort of thing in the 80s, even if they were killed as a result of a fall, I suspect there was little attention given to it. At the end of the day the window just isn't designed to withstand the force of that many teenagers' weight pressing outwards on it. If you press on the window with that kind of force yourself you will almost certainly find that the window falls out.

 

[Ballyheigue]

Why does the railway have to fork out to close level crossings because of accidents, near enough 100% of which are caused by misuse?

(It does show the classic difference in safety culture between road and rail transport, though)

Easy one that, saves masses of money over time on delays when someone is hit and the line has to be closed causing disruption to several services over several miles and perhaps several days depending on if damage is caused or the police need to carry out an extensive investigation.

 

[yorksrob]

A lot of things on the railway wouldn't stand up to a the majority of the weight of three or four teenagers to be honest, they would also break and cause injury. Hopefully they wouldn't also cause the same level of fall... We unfortunately do grandfather a lot of things in, even level crossings that absolutely wouldn't be allowed to be built now, that are nearly as dodgy on the trains. A pacer window was probably about the same as that bus.

Thankfully a lot of the dodgiest stuff has been retired by now. And if you were talking about a bus being built now then yes absolutely that construction shouldn't be happening.

It's a good job we do grandfather things. If we had to deliver standards to provide perfect protection for every misbehaving passenger, motorist and trespasser, the railway would be bankrupt and gone by now.

 

[Starmill]

It's a good job we do grandfather things. If we had to deliver standards to provide perfect protection for every misbehaving passenger, motorist and trespasser, the railway would be bankrupt and gone by now.

A certain level of pragmatism is usually a positive thing in all areas of life absolutely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would kind of be good if this resulted in new buses needing double glazed windows for rigidity - as they improve the environment so much by preventing steaming, just as they do in houses. It would add a lot to cost though.

Even some cars have double glazed side windows now and it does reduce steaming (my previous car, a Ford Kuga, did).

Would be a while before it got to school buses, though, as these are invariably old tat.

 

[duncombec]

It would kind of be good if this resulted in new buses needing double glazed windows for rigidity - as they improve the environment so much by preventing steaming, just as they do in houses. It would add a lot to cost though.

Even some cars have double glazed side windows now and it does reduce steaming (my previous car, a Ford Kuga, did).

Would be a while before it got to school buses, though, as these are invariably old tat.

I do wonder how much you use the bus, or indeed are aware of the cost pressures the industry deals with? Because some of the things you repeat regularly have little to no resemblance to my experiences as a non-driving, regular bus user.

Where do you imagine the funds for this extra cost are going to come from? Exactly where do these double-glazed buses run? (because the Citaros I travelled on in Germany when I lived there would steam up just as much in winter as the E200s at home). Indeed, I can think of plenty of double-glazed houses that still steam up inside because of other insulation pressures (and how much of that do you think there is in the sides of a bus?)

The only time I've been on a bus that smelled of "wet dog" recently was last night... when a wet dog got on with its equally wet owner for three stops part way through the journey.

As for "invariably old tat", that would explain why the school bus that runs past the bottom of the road is just as regularly an 18-month-old E400 as it is a 10-year old E400, if not more so...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I do wonder how much you use the bus, or indeed are aware of the cost pressures the industry deals with? Because some of the things you repeat regularly have little to no resemblance to my experiences as a non-driving, regular bus user.

Where do you imagine the funds for this extra cost are going to come from? Exactly where do these double-glazed buses run? (because the Citaros I travelled on in Germany when I lived there would steam up just as much in winter as the E200s at home). Indeed, I can think of plenty of double-glazed houses that still steam up inside because of other insulation pressures (and how much of that do you think there is in the sides of a bus?)

The only time I've been on a bus that smelled of "wet dog" recently was last night... when a wet dog got on with its equally wet owner for three stops part way through the journey.

As for "invariably old tat", that would explain why the school bus that runs past the bottom of the road is just as regularly an 18-month-old E400 as it is a 10-year old E400, if not more so...

The cost of double glazing on buses shouldn't be underestimated. If damaged, it's a more expensive repair and the vehicle is off the road for longer. The additional weight affects fuel consumption, and of course, the initial purchase price is higher.

The "smell of damp" often gets raised. It does happen but it seldom to do with condensation. Invariably, if it's wet outside, you have people walking in the water plus more pertinently, the impact of ingress from below; it's why vehicles have been known to have flooring or floors replaced. There is also ingress from above - Alexander R types in the early 1990s had issues with this where it would come in through the roof and via the side structure.

 

[Russel]

The cost of double glazing on buses shouldn't be underestimated. If damaged, it's a more expensive repair and the vehicle is off the road for longer. The additional weight affects fuel consumption, and of course, the initial purchase price is higher.

The "smell of damp" often gets raised. It does happen but it seldom to do with condensation. Invariably, if it's wet outside, you have people walking in the water plus more pertinently, the impact of ingress from below; it's why vehicles have been known to have flooring or floors replaced. There is also ingress from above - Alexander R types in the early 1990s had issues with this where it would come in through the roof and via the side structure.

Plaxton Presidents were also rather bad from my experience of the NXWM examples!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly where do these double-glazed buses run?

Most coaches are double glazed. Buses are fairly rare, but around 2000 First Manchester had some Wright bodied Darts with bonded double glazing. These gave for a much better travelling environment, not only reducing steaming but also almost totally rattle and bang free due to the increased rigidity.

With regard to replacement cost there is the upside that the likes of a brick will often bounce off double glazing.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Most coaches are double glazed. Buses are fairly rare, but around 2000 First Manchester had some Wright bodied Darts with bonded double glazing. These gave for a much better travelling environment, not only reducing steaming but also almost totally rattle and bang free due to the increased rigidity.

With regard to replacement cost there is the upside that the likes of a brick will often bounce off double glazing.

First Manchester had quite afew buses with double glazing. The Wright B10s (B and BLE) plus the B6s were. The only downfall was water getting between the panes and folk drawing fish on the windows

They were heavy buggars but 9/10 bricks only broke the outer pane, so better for passengers in that regard...

 

[WibbleWobble]

First Manchester had quite afew buses with double glazing. The Wright B10s (B and BLE) plus the B6s were. The only downfall was water getting between the panes and folk drawing fish on the windows

They were heavy buggars but 9/10 bricks only broke the outer pane, so better for passengers in that regard...

Having been on a bus when a coke bottle was launched at it, and being sat next to the window that was hit, I was quite glad for the double glazing!

The use of double glazing stems back from the GM North examples, being one of the highlighted features of the Superbus. Made for a much warmer environment in the winter!

 

[Thames99]

If double glazing is used, would that enable the metalwork of the bus to be lightened as the window itself could be a structural element? If you double glaze existing designs that will certainly add to the weight. If you designed a bus using double glazing as standard I'm not convinced that it needs to be heavier than a similarly sized single glazed bus.

 

[Leyland Bus]

If double glazing is used, would that enable the metalwork of the bus to be lightened as the window itself could be a structural element? If you double glaze existing designs that will certainly add to the weight. If you designed a bus using double glazing as standard I'm not convinced that it needs to be heavier than a similarly sized single glazed bus.

Yes and no, although the glass is structural there is only so far you can go. Those B10s (from memory) we about 11 tonne, a BYD E400City is about 13 1/2 tonne with a load of batteries on board.

I forget the exact figure but if more than a certain number of windows were removed on the same side the apertures were meant to be braced and if all of them were removed (to change the plank for instance) then the coving/roof was supposed to be held up with acroprops...

 

[DunsBus]

Having been on a bus when a coke bottle was launched at it, and being sat next to the window that was hit, I was quite glad for the double glazing!

The use of double glazing stems back from the GM North examples, being one of the highlighted features of the Superbus. Made for a much warmer environment in the winter!

GRT, pre-First, had double glazing on a number of buses - 60 Mercs (50 for Grampian, 10 for Leicester) and 10 Scanias (eight for Midland, two for Lowland).

 

[Starmill]

The cost of double glazing on buses shouldn't be underestimated. If damaged, it's a more expensive repair and the vehicle is off the road for longer. The additional weight affects fuel consumption, and of course, the initial purchase price is higher.

The "smell of damp" often gets raised. It does happen but it seldom to do with condensation. Invariably, if it's wet outside, you have people walking in the water plus more pertinently, the impact of ingress from below; it's why vehicles have been known to have flooring or floors replaced. There is also ingress from above - Alexander R types in the early 1990s had issues with this where it would come in through the roof and via the side structure.

Plenty of modern vehicles seem to have dehumidifiers or a forced air ventilation system which brings in fresh air and lowers moisture. It seems much more effective to me than the window construction type. I assume it's an optional extra that many operators can't justify readily, however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plenty of modern vehicles seem to have dehumidifiers or a forced air ventilation system which brings in fresh air and lowers moisture. It seems much more effective to me than the window construction type. I assume it's an optional extra that many operators can't justify readily, however.

Forced air is TfL spec and does make a big difference, yes.

 

[Mikey C]

Plenty of modern vehicles seem to have dehumidifiers or a forced air ventilation system which brings in fresh air and lowers moisture. It seems much more effective to me than the window construction type. I assume it's an optional extra that many operators can't justify readily, however.

Forced air is TfL spec and does make a big difference, yes.

Except it never seems to be on in the winter. Lots of upper decks are unpleasantly damp at this time of year.

 

[Starmill]

Except it never seems to be on in the winter. Lots of upper decks are unpleasantly damp at this time of year.

It seems extremely hit and miss with TfL spec these days, especially with a vehicle more than a year old.

Reading Buses have it on nearly everything new of theirs and it seems to work properly. They are probably willing to spend a bit more than your average bus operator for quality vehicles and proper upkeep though.