virgin's railcard easements

[mickey]

Here's a puzzle for you, based on something that nearly happened the other day...

Say I have an off-peak return Liverpool/Manchester to London at the standard price of £66ish (bought for me by someone who didn't know I had a railcard). If I then decide I want to travel on a peak time train, is this possible, and how?

1) Would I have to surrender my ticket at a booking office and ask for it to be re-issued with discount? (Obviously in this case the discount would cover the admin fee, but potentially it might not...)

2) Could it simply be 'excessed down'? Assuming such a thing is even possible (?), could I just hop on the train and let the TM do it or would it have to be done in advance?

3) Could I just show my railcard with the undiscounted ticket and it be automatically valid?

 

[First class]

Your best (maybe only) solution would be to buy a new discounted ticket, and apply for a refund for the original ticket you had.

 

[mickey]

Your best (maybe only) solution would be to buy a new discounted ticket, and apply for a refund for the original ticket you had.

What if I'd already used the first half and was wanting to return on an afternoon peak train? With your option I'd lose out with the admin fee. In any case, as I understand it there's no difference in the actual ticket, just in the easement put in place by a generous train company. Plus surely the companies get more revenue if I have a full-price SVR as opposed to a railcard discounted one, in which case (devil's advocate here...) surely they should be happy for me just to show my railcard with the ticket and an explanation as to what's going on...?

 

[yorkie]

surely they should be happy for me just to show my railcard with the ticket and an explanation as to what's going on...?

If you can ask the guard before boarding that's what I'd do, and they may well accept that. Maybe a zero excess is possible or it may simply be accepted.

 

[CarterUSM]

Does it not just depend on the restriction code whether your ticket is valid on a 'peak' service or not? Railcard validity will not change that. Sorry if i'm missing something? in any case asking the guard is the best idea, if you don't ask, you don't get.

 

[dan_atki]

Does it not just depend on the restriction code whether your ticket is valid on a 'peak' service or not? Railcard validity will not change that. Sorry if i'm missing something? in any case asking the guard is the best idea, if you don't ask, you don't get.

Off-Peak tickets discounted by a railcard are allowed on any Virgin service (regardless of restriction code), but only technically where Virgin price the flow.

 

[mickey]

Off-Peak tickets discounted by a railcard are allowed on any Virgin service (regardless of restriction code), but only technically where Virgin price the flow.

Hence why I used Liverpool and Manchester as examples, as there's little doubt Virgin's the fare-setter there. The trouble is that the ticket here is not discounted but technically could be, given that the holder is entitled to such a discount. Common sense dictates that there shouldn't be a problem, but the railway doesn't run on common sense.

Asking the guard is a good idea, if you can get to him/her. Here the theory matters though, given that it's talking about peak-time out of Euston and you have to fight your way through gate staff first. I know from experience that they won't issue excess tickets themselves, so if one were required I'd have to queue at the booking office and probably miss the train.

Maybe the answer is simply to try it and see!

 

[yorkie]

A rule that is hidden to the public IS NOT ENFORCEABLE.

I've never heard of any TM go looking up who sets the fare on Avantix when checking tickets. I wonder how far out of Euston they'd get on a packed train if they did that? I've never seen any public documentation saying a) that it's only where Virgin set the flow, or b) revealing who sets the flow for any ticket.

 

[paul1609]

I believe that Advantix will tell the TM whether a railcard is valid on a service. A Southern Guard recently queried how I was going to use a OFF PEAK ticket to Crianlarich in the morning peak. I explained about the Virgin Easement for my Forces Railcard. He checked on Advantix and said yes its fine, I didnt realise that, my son could use it to get up to Glasgow.

 

[CarterUSM]

I can confirm that is correct myself. Advantix will generally tell you what you need to know, restrictions, easements and the like. It's a mine of information. I Remember having to carry fares manual and strathclyde manual before, along with sportis.

 

[yorkie]

Southern guards should accept ALL off peak / super off peak tickets to destinations outside the Network area anyway, regardless of any Virgin easement!

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section
LONDON.

Super Off-Peak tickets issued
for journeys commencing WITHIN
the network area to
destinations outside the
Network Area with travel via
London are valid by any train
to London to connect with
trains from London.

What part of "by any train" can they not understand?

 

[paul1609]

The bold text supports your own interpretation of this rule. The rule applied down here from BR days until webtis is that your ticket is valid on any train which is shown in the nres database as a connection to a valid train north of london.
tickets issued
for journeys commencing WITHIN
the network area to
destinations outside the
Network Area with travel via
London are "valid by any train
to London to connect with
trains from London".

 

[Crossover]

One thing that I have only recently become aware of myself is that (from Milton Keynes at least), Virgin don't impose any off peak restrictions for railcard holders when travelling North. Not sure if this applies going int London but I guess the no restriction applies all day though including morning.
Either way it makes my journey home via Manchester at the evening peak somewhat cheaper

 

[yorkie]

The bold text supports your own interpretation of this rule. The rule applied down here from BR days until webtis is that your ticket is valid on any train which is shown in the nres database as a connection to a valid train north of london.

There is no maximum connection time, only minimums. There is no restriction on these tickets to London whatsoever. National Rail will allow you to increment the change time by 2 hours anyway, so you can make the 0435 from Portsmouth (for example) connect to an off peak train. NRES is quite happy for this. There is no restriction whatsoever into London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One thing that I have only recently become aware of myself is that (from Milton Keynes at least), Virgin don't impose any off peak restrictions for railcard holders when travelling North. Not sure if this applies going int London but I guess the no restriction applies all day though including morning.
Either way it makes my journey home via Manchester at the evening peak somewhat cheaper

East Coast website is quite happy to book a £12.30 off peak return from MKC to EUS with a Railcard on Virgin trains at 'peak' time. That's quite a bargain! I don't see how Virgin can have secret rules on when this easement does not apply - that's simply not enforceable.

Without a railcard MKC - EUS on Virgin at peak time increases to £33.90 for the same validity to come back within 1 month but for a day trip this is reduced to £25.80. Only a couple of trips make the purchase of a Railcard worthwhile.

 

[Crossover]

Without a railcard MKC - EUS on Virgin at peak time increases to £33.90 for the same validity to come back within 1 month but for a day trip this is reduced to £25.80. Only a couple of trips make the purchase of a Railcard worthwhile.

I only found out about the easements when I went to get tickets at Christmas (when the restrictions were lifted anyway) and was told that with the railcard the easement applied for trains going north. You just can't use the ticket machines as they aren't programmed for it and have to go and speak to someone at the desk.

It doesn't take much to cover the cost of the railcard - if you do my journey home without the break of journey at Manchester then the cost of the railcard is covered in a single trip!! - but its even better when you get the railcard free as part of a NatWest student account :P

 

[yorkie]

Book it online if they're being uncooperative issuing it for journeys heading South at the station then.

There is something very fishy about the easement's lack of publicity. It almost looks as if they are considering withdrawing it.

I only heard about it through word of mouth and by on-train announcements "Holders of Savers are not valid unless a railcard is held or travelling beyond bla bla bla" or something similar. It's not advertised (other than in passing on a page about off peak First Class tickets) on their website or the National Rail site.

 

[Crossover]

I have never tried but I will bear in mind should I ever do it but coming from Yorkshire, I'm usually trying to get back North :P hehe

The only thing Virgin really advertise are which journeys are included in the morning and evening off peak restrictions

 

[EltonRoad]

I heard an announcement last week going north on Virgin from Euston, that off peak tickets weren't valid unless a) you are a railcard holder or b) you work for a charity. What's that about?

 

[First class]

I heard an announcement last week going north on Virgin from Euston, that off peak tickets weren't valid unless a) you are a railcard holder or b) you work for a charity. What's that about?

Virgin Charity Line member or hold a railcard simples!

To help Charities devote the maximum possible funding to their Charities Work rather than to administration costs, Virgin have set up a Charity Line and are offering an easement to their Off Peak ticket restrictions on Virgin Trains to registered charities.
The Virgin Trains Charity Line service is a booking service available to all UK registered Charities. Registered users will be free of all travel restrictions on Virgin Trains services.
The Charity line will provide a full travel account and supporting documentation. Charities have to register to use this service, they can do this by calling 0845 30 50 350 or by completing a registration form.
The annual fee for this service is £100 from 1 April 2007. When registering, Charities can give details of travel preferences, authorized bookers and payment methods and these will be held on file to speed up the booking process.
Tickets booked through Charity Line will have a special stamp on them, and customers may be asked for ID to prove they work for the Charity that booked the ticket. As well as booking unrestricted Off Peak tickets the line can also book normal tickets for Charities ONLY

 

[jon0844]

Simply working for a charity isn't actually enough, going by the description above. You have to pre-register (and pay) so if you suddenly said you worked for a charity (and weren't lying), how would they deal with you if the announcement has said you're okay if you work for a charity!

Is there an asterisk with small print on the displays, or the announcement speaking the clauses extra fast at the end like an American radio advert?

 

[Mojo]

I heard an announcement last week going north on Virgin from Euston, that off peak tickets weren't valid unless a) you are a railcard holder or b) you work for a charity. What's that about?

It's misleading anyway, as there may be some Off-peak tickets that are valid, as it's down to the restriction code for the ticket and not the train. Most TOCs seem guilty of this though, especially East Midlands Trains who have different colour codes in their timetables.

 

[mickey]

Simply working for a charity isn't actually enough, going by the description above. You have to pre-register (and pay) so if you suddenly said you worked for a charity (and weren't lying), how would they deal with you if the announcement has said you're okay if you work for a charity!

In the past (presumably before 2007 going by the advert above) you just had to show a charity ID badge on the train. Presumably this was abused so the new booking arrangements were brought in. Possibly the guard was a little out of date?

 

[spira]

Sorry about reviving an old thread but I guess this kind of fits.

I got rejected entry at Milton Keynes Central barriers this morning, trying to catch a virgin train to Euston at 9:19 with an off peak 1 month return (virgin trains only) ticket + my 16-25 rail card. The automatic barrier obviously didn't accept my ticket as it was still peak hours, so I handed it to the guy next to the barriers and he refused to let me through saying "come back at 9:47" - when the next virgin train arrives, which according to him, was the first off peak virgin train service i can take.

When I question him about the virgin railcard easement scheme he just said "No you can't" and keep saying come back at 9:47. Then I asked another member of staff nearby and he said "this only applies to trains going north". Since I didn't have time to argue and I had no proof to back my point I went and bought a peak day single ticket and hopped onto the train...

Is it really the case that this scheme only applies to trains going up north? I remember reading about this back in January in the Virgin Magazine and they didn't state that this doesn't apply for trains going south... And both Virgin and national rail website still happily sell me a £12.30 off peak return ticket for the 9:19 train. There also seems to be a discrepancy on knowledge with this matter because I have traveled at the same time last week and the week before, where the staff at the barrier happily let me through. Even the random ticket checks when I was on the train didn't say anything about it.

So I am just wondering who is right? and if I was right, is there anything on the internet or somewhere I can obtain to take with me while I travel so I don't have to spend time explaining to the staff, risking the possibility of missing my train?

Thanks for your help!

 

[dan_atki]

Is it really the case that this scheme only applies to trains going up north?

No, it is ANY Virgin train. The logic of only NB services falls down when you reach the northern extent of the Virgin Trains network!

So I am just wondering who is right? and if I was right, is there anything on the internet or somewhere I can obtain to take with me while I travel so I don't have to spend time explaining to the staff, risking the possibility of missing my train?

You were indeed correct, and I would have asked them to check the full text of the restriction code where it states the easement allowing you to travel on the 0919.

I would send in the Anytime ticket to Virgin with a letter asking for a full refund, a letter confirming their easement to show on future journeys, and an assurance that they'll ask London Midland to brief their staff at Milton Keynes on the restriction.

 

[OwlMan]

Doesn't the easement only apply to Virgin set fares? - if so Milton Keynes - Euston is set by LMR.

Peter

 

[323235]

it was a Virgin Trains only ticket.

 

[spira]

No, it is ANY Virgin train. The logic of only NB services falls down when you reach the northern extent of the Virgin Trains network!



You were indeed correct, and I would have asked them to check the full text of the restriction code where it states the easement allowing you to travel on the 0919.

I would send in the Anytime ticket to Virgin with a letter asking for a full refund, a letter confirming their easement to show on future journeys, and an assurance that they'll ask London Midland to brief their staff at Milton Keynes on the restriction.

That's great! Thanks I'll definitely write to Virgin to talk about this! It's so strange how this information is so vague to public, as if they don't want people to know and overcharge them

Doesn't the easement only apply to Virgin set fares? - if so Milton Keynes - Euston is set by LMR.

Peter

As 323235 has said, yes, my ticket was a virgin train only ticket, priced at 12.30 with my railcard, there's a off peak return (any route permitted) priced at 16.xx, which probably wouldn't be valid on that train I suppose..

 

[tony_mac]

it is mentioned in one of Virgin's leaflets (I have been looking!), but it only says *most* Virgin trains, you have to ask them for details of each specific journey.

 

[General Zod]

I've tried to search for a MKC - EUS YP 16-25 ticket on the Virgin booking site. It gives you the option of return , open return or one way, so I checked the "return" option dep 29/06 16.02 and returning 30/06 17.00. It offers 2x£8.60 off peak singles, one for each direction. However, if you check "open return" in your search options it you are offered the £12.30 OPR ticket. This is the discounted ticket and being an "open return" will be valid on all services northbound or southbound and during peak so OP can rest assured.
A casual user could easily be fooled into paying £17.20 for two separate singles ( both discounted and valid on northbound and southbound peak time Virgin services).My gripe with Virgin is that when asking for a YP 16-25 "return", dep MKC 16.02 and return next day 1703 (ex EUS) why are you not offered the cheaper £12.30 OPR instead of the two £8.60 singles ?

 

[Olympian]

The automatic barrier obviously didn't accept my ticket as it was still peak hours,

I do wonder if these barriers have actually perhaps been set to reject all Virgin only tickets as my Virgin Traveller tickets were rejected both on arrival and departure when I went to visit a friend in Milton Keynes a couple of Saturdays ago. Thankfully I didn't have any arguments with barrier staff but clearly the barriers aren't set up correctly to accept all valid tickets at Milton Keynes Central (are any?!).