Virgin XC

[Mojo]

Any company who will put more seats on the trains and stop making annoying announcements will win my support.

 

[mrcheek]

To me, as a punter, Virgin were all about spin and marketing. Which attracted lots of passengers, and then couldn't deal with them as the realities of life on the railways hit virgin hard - you can't just increase capacity at the click of a switch. Whilst there is some spot hire, getting paths etc is very difficult, and thus it is less immediately responsive to customer demand than retail is.

Also, their marketing often failed to be met by the delivery side. Shiny new trains we saw in adverts, but on my most regular journey (edb-NCl) we saw; closed shops or empty shops, smelly/full toilets, vibrations, dirty carriages (until on-train cleaning really got going), overcrowding and smaller trains.

Not all of these were Virgins fault, but you don't care whose fault it is when sat on the floor outside a stinking toilet for 2 hours!

this is the best post on the thread. its spot on. Virgin just go for publicity. When they unveiled new trains, they made the national news programmes! yet it was never mentioned that the new trains were much shorter than the old ones, which were of adequate standard, and at least you could get a seat.
plus of course, the media loves Virgin. when it was announced that Arriva had won the franchise, BBC news showed lots of footage of the wonderfully new Virgin Voyagers, and then showed Arriva services with 142s and 143s, as if trying to suggest that these would now be used on XC routes! it was hardly mentioned that the Virgin trains would largely be transferred straight to Arriva.

 

[Mojo]

Yes, but Voyagers did have the same number of seats overall as the older trains, as they were more frequent. However, it wasn't to last really, as more frequent trains = more customers (induced demand), and besides VXC said they had an aim of boosting numbers by up to 50% to help pay for new trains.

 

[me123]

Yes, but Voyagers did have the same number of seats overall as the older trains, as they were more frequent.

Of course, most people want to travel at the same time, so whilst the Voyagers are sufficient for, say, the midday train GLC-BTM, the 0900 GLC-PZC is constantly overcrowded beyond Edinburgh even though there are quite a few services running to the SW via ECML. I hope one of Arriva's "new" HSTs runs this route, being now their only service from Glasgow (IIRC).

 

[VTDan]

Oh for ****s sake discuss the topic! It's not an english lesson!

And yes voyagerdude220 I completely agree with you mate!
Virgin all the way.

 

[Bonemaster]

Of course, most people want to travel at the same time, so whilst the Voyagers are sufficient for, say, the midday train GLC-BTM, the 0900 GLC-PZC is constantly overcrowded beyond Edinburgh even though there are quite a few services running to the SW via ECML. I hope one of Arriva's "new" HSTs runs this route, being now their only service from Glasgow (IIRC).

Hence the introduction of the value ticket for off peak services, those services where there is the capacity have loads of value tickets available, but those at peak times when people want to travel have little or none, to try and balance demand better, unfortunately people were still more than willing to pay to travel on the trains they wanted too.

I believe the HSTs will be limited to some of the more 'shuttle' like workings such as Brum - Bristol or the remaining Manchester services

 

[me123]

I believe the HSTs will be limited to some of the more 'shuttle' like workings such as Brum - Bristol or the remaining Manchester services

Sadly, I think that this will be the case. I hope, though, that they aquire more rolling stock for longer trains on busy services.

EDIT: According to the XC website, the HSTs will be running NE-SW services (currently VT3), so hopefully the sole Glasgow train will receive an HST service.

 

[devon_metro]

I would imagine the HSTs will work the long distance stuff as Voyagrs are totally unsuited for it. Also usefull for summer saturday workings to Newquay/Paignton

I'm glad XC is getting a new lease of life.

 

[voyagerdude220]

And yes voyagerdude220 I completely agree with you mate!
Virgin all the way.

Good

Edit: Has the New XC timetable been published in writing yet, as it has been entered into the trainline, but I haven't seen an actual timetable yet?

Does anyone know If their will be any Value singles tickets valid for both Virgin & Arriva XC, for anyone going to/from the Crewe-Glasgow stretch, or will they have to buy two seperate tickets when booking in advance?

 

[devon_metro]

Looks like as it was planned. The 1002 Paignton-Manc now goes to Newcastle instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Advance booking for tickets on the new CrossCountry franchise will open on 24 September for travel from 11 November up to and including 8 December, the last day of the current timetable.

FGW OJP shows the 12th Dec timetable so go and look at the new TT

 

[theblackwatch]

Yes, but Voyagers did have the same number of seats overall as the older trains, as they were more frequent. However, it wasn't to last really, as more frequent trains = more customers (induced demand), and besides VXC said they had an aim of boosting numbers by up to 50% to help pay for new trains.

Virgin also ended up removing some of the seats in the Voyagers to provide additional capacity for luggage - it seems Virgin hadn't realised people wanted to take cases etc with them when they went away! One friend of mine, travelling on holiday from Yorkshire to the West Country 3 or 4 years ago, had to put his rucksack on his lap for the entire journey - he said afterwards he wouldn't do that trip by train again. Another customer lost...

 

[devon_metro]

Taken from the XC website:

Is it technically feasible to remove the shop from the Voyager units?
Removal of the shop does not present any major technical problem or compromise the safety or structural integrity of the vehicles. Detailed design work on this and other modifications to increase the seating and useful luggage space capacity of the Voyager units is underway and work will commence in a few months’ time. The owners of the trains have agreed to these modifications and will not require their reversal at the end of the lease.

 

[Techniquest]

What a load of rubbish, the name of the franchise winner is the 3rd most important ingredient in the running of a good company

1) You need the DfT to allow you the rolling stock to stand a chance, and good quality rolling stock at that

2) Good local management. NEX got Midland Mainline right yet made a mess of Central Trains, First TPE good First GW appalling, same companies very different outputs

Eh?

I've complained more at the fact anyone with an ounce of sense could look at Arriva's previous record and know not to give the franchise to them. Their problem with ATW is not using local managers really. Base operations in Cardiff if you want, but remember that North Wales exists too and stop farcing around with it...:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Virgin also ended up removing some of the seats in the Voyagers to provide additional capacity for luggage - it seems Virgin hadn't realised people wanted to take cases etc with them when they went away! One friend of mine, travelling on holiday from Yorkshire to the West Country 3 or 4 years ago, had to put his rucksack on his lap for the entire journey - he said afterwards he wouldn't do that trip by train again. Another customer lost...

Are you seriously telling me he/she could not put his/her rucksack anywhere but on their lap at all during a Yorkshire - Devon/Cornwall trip? Sorry, but that makes no sense. No way could the train have been that full all the way! What about when this traveller went to the lavatory? Overhead racks full? Bag too big? Why not request use of the cycle areas at the ends of the Voyagers for use of luggage?

If you're stupid enough to keep a rucksack on your lap all that way, not needing to get up in the meantime, then, well, I can't find words to finish that thought...

 

[Mojo]

The new XC timetable doesn't commence with its major changes until Dmr 2008, so it is not yet online.

 

[devon_metro]

Perhaps it had something valuable in it and the luggage rack was either too small/full?

 

[VTDan]

Are you seriously telling me he/she could not put his/her rucksack anywhere but on their lap at all during a Yorkshire - Devon/Cornwall trip? Sorry, but that makes no sense. No way could the train have been that full all the way! What about when this traveller went to the lavatory? Overhead racks full? Bag too big? Why not request use of the cycle areas at the ends of the Voyagers for use of luggage?

If you're stupid enough to keep a rucksack on your lap all that way, not needing to get up in the meantime, then, well, I can't find words to finish that thought...

That is known. I remember putting my case in a luggage rack, then at birmingham them changing all the carriages around so I lost my case to the front of the train! IF trains are so busy, it's sensible to keep luggage with you. Also about the cycle space...People stand there! There's no room for luggage.

 

[theblackwatch]

Are you seriously telling me he/she could not put his/her rucksack anywhere but on their lap at all during a Yorkshire - Devon/Cornwall trip? Sorry, but that makes no sense. No way could the train have been that full all the way! What about when this traveller went to the lavatory? Overhead racks full? Bag too big? Why not request use of the cycle areas at the ends of the Voyagers for use of luggage?

If you're stupid enough to keep a rucksack on your lap all that way, not needing to get up in the meantime, then, well, I can't find words to finish that thought...

Yes I am seriously telling you that. Obviously, you have to put the bag on the seat when you get up....

Have you seen the size of the overhead luggage rack on a Vomiter? The small rucksack I take out for the day with me won't fit in the overhead luggage agrea. I've seen people's luggage strewn in the gangways on these things. (Strangely, only a couple of weeks ago on here, people were saying how would the trolley get through with all the luggage/people in the gangway, now you seem to reckon there's loads of space!)

It all boils down to these units being unsuitable for purpose. Mind you, they look nice and shiny from the outside and have plenty of gimmicks, which is what matters....

 

[Spaceflower]

That is known. I remember putting my case in a luggage rack, then at birmingham them changing all the carriages around so I lost my case to the front of the train! IF trains are so busy, it's sensible to keep luggage with you. Also about the cycle space...People stand there! There's no room for luggage.
__________________

Let alone bikes!

Sorry for going off topic, but I remeber two years ago regularly getting the rush hour Leeds service from knottingley with my bike. By the time it got to Castleford I was penned in behind my bike, although that give me more room than anyone else. That services regularly turns people away at Woodlesford. It took weeks for Northern to respond and provide extra carraiges. So its not a problem solely confined to XC although on such a lengthy route you would think the provision of extra carraiges would be neccessary. It would take government legislation to do it, something in the health and safety realm?

 

[VTDan]

I dont see the point of having bike racks on Voyagers. It's once in a blue moon people are able to get to them, and when they do they bang about so ****ing much!

I've seen bigger trains going from Newcastle to Morpeth Plenty of room for bikes on that i'll bet!

 

[Bonemaster]

Eh?

I've complained more at the fact anyone with an ounce of sense could look at Arriva's previous record and know not to give the franchise to them. Their problem with ATW is not using local managers really. Base operations in Cardiff if you want, but remember that North Wales exists too and stop farcing around with it...:roll:

I'm sorry you obviously don't get my point or haven't read my point so I shall try and make it clearer

Great Western Bad - Transpennine Good - Same franchise holder
Central Trains Bad - Midland Mainline Good - Same franchise holder

and as such the assumption that one bad franchise is equal to any thing they touch turning to dust just is not true, I'm not saying Arriva will do a better job, I'm trying to say we just don't know and can't knock them until they have had a good go, and by a good go I mean several years, not a few cancellations in the first few months, because that will be inevitable with the huge upheaval of the franchise, and I would argue it isnt even comparable with the existing XC franchise given the huge parts of it that have gone to VWC and FTPE and the large part of CT that they are taking on.

By local management I meant the mangers running the franchise rather than those sat in Arriva Towers where ever that is. Your statement about Arrivas base being in Cardiff and not north Wales in nonsensical after all London is not local to Midland Mainlines management centre.

Arriva certainly turned around RR North East from the mess that MTL made of it, and given the questionable franchise payments at that time of the franchising program, MTLs demise was inevitable and Arriva only picked up the pieces.

 

[Guinness]

I dont see the point of having bike racks on Voyagers. It's once in a blue moon people are able to get to them, and when they do they bang about so ****ing much!

Because 1/3 of the Leading End needs to have no passengers due to 100mph+ safety reasons. The Bike Rake/Luggage area is roughly 1/3.

 

[mrcheek]

Great Western Bad - Transpennine Good - Same franchise holder

actually, you could probably even go further:
First Great Western 125s to London - Good.
First Great Western local servies - Bad.

same franchise. some good, some bad.

 

[theblackwatch]

It took weeks for Northern to respond and provide extra carraiges.

At least Northern has done something about its overcrowding, by building partnerships to secure funding for extra rolling stock. (The whole Northern franchise was based on these external partnerships to fund things, this was even said at the launch event.) This moves on nicely to mentions of Arriva's past record - Northern Rail took over from FNW and Arriva Trains Northern. ATN didn't last long, but it made quite a good job in improving what had been left by Northern Spirit - in fact, ATN's Commercial Director became the MD of Northern Rail.

 

[Techniquest]

Yes I am seriously telling you that. Obviously, you have to put the bag on the seat when you get up....

Believe it or not, that didn't come to mind...

Have you seen the size of the overhead luggage rack on a Vomiter? The small rucksack I take out for the day with me won't fit in the overhead luggage agrea. I've seen people's luggage strewn in the gangways on these things. (Strangely, only a couple of weeks ago on here, people were saying how would the trolley get through with all the luggage/people in the gangway, now you seem to reckon there's loads of space!)

Yes I have seen the size of those overhead racks! Plenty big enough for most people IMX.

My bags always fit on the overhead racks, yet sometimes I pack them full to bursting. Not a small bag at that either.

As for the lack of room for a trolley service, I daresay this would fit down there, but would require people to move. Unlike the 175s though, where a trolley doesn't fit without banging and rubbing against everything else! But in any case with the trolley on Voyagers, if it was that full they wouldn't run it down the train. Mind, when it's quiet on ATW services the trolley will often stay at its end of the train and not move. Staff getting paid to sit in the vestibule throughout the journey and not do their job, tut tut...

Besides, you stated the rucksack was on their lap for the whole journey. If you stand up, the bag (obviously) has to move too, thus creating a time period in which the bag is *not* on your lap. This means your original statement was incorrect. Unless this person was one of those random people who doesn't move out of their seat during such a long journey...

It all boils down to these units being unsuitable for purpose. Mind you, they look nice and shiny from the outside and have plenty of gimmicks, which is what matters....

They'd have been suitable if Virgin hadn't revolutionised travel again. If you can make train travel popular, giving it a fighting chance against the car, then that's one big achievement.

Shiny? You've not seen some of the Voyagers running around at particular times! Flithy things!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sorry you obviously don't get my point or haven't read my point so I shall try and make it clearer

Great Western Bad - Transpennine Good - Same franchise holder
Central Trains Bad - Midland Mainline Good - Same franchise holder

and as such the assumption that one bad franchise is equal to any thing they touch turning to dust just is not true, I'm not saying Arriva will do a better job, I'm trying to say we just don't know and can't knock them until they have had a good go, and by a good go I mean several years, not a few cancellations in the first few months, because that will be inevitable with the huge upheaval of the franchise, and I would argue it isnt even comparable with the existing XC franchise given the huge parts of it that have gone to VWC and FTPE and the large part of CT that they are taking on.

By local management I meant the mangers running the franchise rather than those sat in Arriva Towers where ever that is. Your statement about Arrivas base being in Cardiff and not north Wales in nonsensical after all London is not local to Midland Mainlines management centre.

Arriva certainly turned around RR North East from the mess that MTL made of it, and given the questionable franchise payments at that time of the franchising program, MTLs demise was inevitable and Arriva only picked up the pieces.

My comment re: ATW's basing themselves in Cardiff was more a complaint at the fact that, so long as the trains run in South Wales, they couldn't give a toss about the North...

 

[devon_metro]

Why not be impartial and base themselves in India then?

 

[Tom]

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