Virgin WC + Connections Sandwell & Dudley - London Marylebone

[sonic2009]

It appears the Virgin webiste is offering VWC & Connections ticket between these two stations.

One customer had purchased one for today, and was charged the price of a new ticket from Birmingham - London by a Chiltern Guard, link to the twitter conversation is here.

I'm surprised as to why the guard onboard Chiltern did not hounour it, at first i thought it may have been offering these fares due to the WCML works, but appears not.

I have found more VWC + Connections tickets for later on in the week, using Virgin's website. Picture attached of a weird one i found for Tuesday 6th May departing at 1455, with an Advance ticket costing £21.00.

Discuss as to why this is happening.

 

[tractakid]

Interesting. Definitely valid if only due to it being an itinerary provided with the purchase of the ticket.

 

[sonic2009]

Certainly is getting stranger by the minute i've just been playing around and i've got a journey from Wolverhampton - London Marylebone via Wilmcote on a VWC & Connections ticket.

Outward Journey (19 May 2014)

18:45Wolverhampton 19:05Birmingham New Street Train VIRGIN TRAINS 00h 20

19:05Birmingham New Street 19:31Birmingham Moor Street Walk n/a 00h 26

19:31 Birmingham Moor Street 20:15 Wilmcote Train LONDON MIDLAND 00h 44

20:56 Wilmcote 23:01 London Marylebone Train CHILTERN RAILWAYS 02h 05

£21.00 the price of the ticket.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Advance FAQs cover this situation don't they - instances where the obvious 'connections leg' is longer than the TOC specific leg? Yup, it's Q24:

Q24 - Can a passenger travel on a TOC X train if they are booked on another TOC’s Advance ticket e.g.
“TOC Y & Connections”?

A: As a connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routeing on the ticket – yes.
As a replacement for the main TOC shown on the ticket - no. (However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff
should use their discretion, as advised by their Control office).

Please note that “TOC & Connections” tickets are not the same as ‘dedicated’ tickets and should be treated differently.
“TOC & Connections” simply means the majority of the journey should take place on the TOC shown plus any other local connections. Unfortunately not all Journey Planners understand the meaning of “the majority of”, and sometimes the ‘majority’ might be a relatively small portion. But it works both ways round as all TOCs are affected, and it all balances out.

Do not penalise the passenger if the ticket issuing system gives them a journey where the “main” TOC has a relatively small portion, and please report any extreme examples found.

I think that covers the situation here with no ambiguity...

 

[Metrailway]

Here is another one today: https://twitter.com/HelenJollye/status/462956714070147072/photo/1

 

[swt_passenger]

Here is another one today: https://twitter.com/HelenJollye/status/462956714070147072/photo/1

Perhaps someone who's a twitter member could forward the gist of my post?

 

[sonic2009]

Here is another one today: https://twitter.com/HelenJollye/status/462956714070147072/photo/1

I'm suprised that Chiltern are doing this, if someone has bought a valid ticket then they should not be charged again.

 

[MikeWh]

Someone at Chiltern is going to have serious egg on their face after this.

 

[sonic2009]

There are some funny responses from Chiltern on Twitter.

 

[Tracky]

It's an unfortunate situation here. It is a shame the twitter responders both at Virgin and Chiltern seem oblivious to the issue.

The Chiltern Guard should not have penalised the passenger, but reported the genuinely odd fare. It is understandable why he felt it shouldn't be valid so I wouldn't be too harsh on him.

Just another example of how the over complicated fare structure helps nobody!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It seems to me that Chiltern are confusing 'VWC & Connections' with 'VWC Only' as one of the responses is "we had not arranged to accept virgin trains advance tickets this weekend.".

I think it is also fair to say that '& Connections' tickets are very poorly implemented because of poor wording of the conditions. The original '& Connections' tickets were much better in this regard, but then ATOC 'simplified' everything.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is actually a fares error I have noticed....and I reported it months back despite not working for either TOC concerned here! Look like little has been done.

There were itineraries where there is no VWC element at all, for example Acocks Green to Marylebone, which is clearly a mistake. I cannot find these any more, however - maybe those ones were "cleaned up".

The correct process is of course a zero fare and withdraw the ticket for investigation. The passenger shouldn't be penalised for this anomaly.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The basic issue stems from the way the fares database is structured. Without making the "via High Wycombe" fares "Chiltern only" ones, it requires some "creative" implementation of restrictions to achieve the desired effect...which doesn't always work.

 

[Paul Kelly]

All the Moor Street to Marlyebone trains are reservable (in the Twitter example I looked at, the passenger has been issued with a counted place reservation for BMO-MYB). So could Chiltern not do something in the reservations system, e.g. a block on all reservations using Virgin Advance ticket types (VAS, VBS, VCS etc.) with a destination of Marylebone? I'm presuming that Chiltern still wish to allow VWC & Connections advances to certain destinations on their reservable trains, otherwise they could probably just have a zero quota for all the Virgin advance ticket types.

 

[dave87016]

I am no expert but surely when a passenger books a ticket ( especially the ones mentioned above) they enter into a contract or something, If I had booked my tickets and was refused travel on the booked services I would under no circumstances pay extra!!

 

[bb21]

No extra should have been charged. The correct procedure was pointed out by AlterEgo in that the ticket should have been withdrawn for investigation.

 

[yorkie]

I am no expert but surely when a passenger books a ticket ( especially the ones mentioned above) they enter into a contract or something, If I had booked my tickets and was refused travel on the booked services I would under no circumstances pay extra!!

Agreed.

Chiltern have now agreed to refund the passengers, as I understand it.

Some people at the Company seem to have forgotten how important it is to offer good customer service (and especially to people who might otherwise use Virgin Trains!) but there are good people at Chiltern who will ensure the customers are not out of pocket, I'm sure.

 

[sonic2009]

Agreed.

Chiltern have now agreed to refund the passengers, as I understand it.

Some people at the Company seem to have forgotten how important it is to offer good customer service (and especially to people who might otherwise use Virgin Trains!) but there are good people at Chiltern who will ensure the customers are not out of pocket, I'm sure.

Glad to hear that refunds have been agreed, has anything been said about what will happen in the future if someone appears on Chiltern with VWC+Connections ticket? As I've highlighted you can purchase them, I do believe Chiltern have a tweet the manager next week, wonder if it's worth getting involved with a few questions?.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Glad to hear that refunds have been agreed, has anything been said about what will happen in the future if someone appears on Chiltern with VWC+Connections ticket? As I've highlighted you can purchase them, I do believe Chiltern have a tweet the manager next week, wonder if it's worth getting involved with a few questions?.

It would be entirely appropriate, given it's the Customer Service Director "in the chair", so anything related to Retail matters ultimately stops at her door.

 

[OwlMan]

These tickets appear fairly often for example Nuneaton - Bridlington XC + Connections on 16 July - a very reasonable £18.30. (The only reservation is for EMT )


Nuneaton

09:22
XC

Leicester
09:51

Train terminates at Leicester


Leicester
10:00
EM

Sheffield
11:01

Train terminates at Sheffield


Sheffield
11:41
NT

Bridlington
13:55

Train continues to Scarborough

You can hardly say that XC is the primary carrier for that journey

 

[bb21]

I think EMT already have their eyes on these so the less exposure to this the better it is. This is a common theme for this particular routing.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Swings and roundabouts...Wouldn't surprise me if it was possible to buy an "EMT & Connections" ticket that used EMT for something like Sheffield to Chesterfield, then XC for a longer distance.