• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Virgin Voyagers

Status
Not open for further replies.

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,544
They were introduced for two areas - Manchester to Llandudno and Manchester to Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool.

The fleet was too small to "share" between two TOCs, so when the franchises were redrawn it had to be one or the other. The Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool routes were getting new stock (the 185s), so it made sense to put them all in the Wales & Borders franchise.

I don't think it was anything to do with First deciding (correct me if I'm wrong)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


1. More coaches
2. More coaches
3. More coaches

If there's any money left after these improvements, I'd buy some more coaches.
*searches unsuccessfully for like button*



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Think my improvements would be 1 disabled loo on voyagers with the rest being smaller and the space part used for luggage and the rest for a few tipup seats for the gangway passengers!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

sprinterguy

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,565
Location
Macclesfield
Many of the gripes about Voyagers are down to the poor design that has led to an incredibly inefficient use of the available interior space. With more carriages, this would be less of a big deal, as it is only with space being at such a premium in a short four or five carriage train that the need to make best use of all the available space is such an issue. If the trains were longer it would simply be easier to overlook some of these shortcomings, rather than these trademarks of poor design being eradicated altogether.

Looking from the outside, there is very little of each carriage bodyside that is taken up by windows compared to many other train designs which shows both how short the passenger saloons are in relation to the carriage length, and how wide the window pillars are, which is the reason why the seats not lining up with the windows is such a maligned point. Yes, the seats don’t always line up with the windows on the likes of 170s, but the window pillars are narrower, and the design of seat is less substantial, so it causes less of an obstruction. So much space is taken up by the vast toilets: A four coach train doesn’t need three large disabled toilets when space for passengers and seating is at such a premium, and when some of that space beyond the seated area of the passenger saloon could have been used for increased luggage space. The space available in a 170 is made much better use of than that available in a Voyager is. The overhead racks are also much narrower than they could be.

It is definitely true that some of these shortcomings wouldn’t be such a big deal if the Voyagers were a “proper” length. However there are still a number of problems that remain even if it were the case (Smelly toilets, lack of luggage provision and lack of sound insulation from the engine bay). The much preferable atmosphere aboard a “Meridian” brought about by all the improvements made from the lessons learnt from experience with the Voyagers is testimony to this. Even if this difference in opinion were only down to the suitability of the Meridians for the shorter distance journeys they make on the MML, that still goes to show that the Voyagers really aren’t cut out for the longer distance nature of journeys on the Crosscountry network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Out of interest do we really need an entire First Class carriage on some XC Voyager workings. In effect the train is only 3 carriages if it is a Voyager!

Is there any way the interior could be improved and are there any suggestions. How well is the new luggage space being used now it is fully advertised and has it made a big difference? The last time I was on a Voyager it seemed no better than pre works with luggage spilling over everywhere and the usual complaints about train length and luggage space whilst I was being hit by the guard's ticket machine as he walked up and down!

The additional large area of luggage space is only of any use if you can get to it. I suspect that the vast majority of passengers are not aware of the existence of this feature, and even if they are, they are unlikely to know where on the platform to stand for the relevant carriage to pull up alongside them. On the busiest services, the guard/”train manager” has made regular announcements informing passengers of the location of the luggage storage area. However, these announcements are useless if it is completely impossible for passengers with large luggage to move through the train due to it being completely rammed. Even if a train is reasonably quiet, a passenger with large, bulky and/or heavy items of luggage may not be inclined to go to the effort of hauling their gear down the narrow aisles of two carriages to the luggage area if they board the train in the wrong place.
 

Drsatan

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
1,887
Location
Land of the Sprinters
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The additional large area of luggage space is only of any use if you can get to it. I suspect that the vast majority of passengers are not aware of the existence of this feature, and even if they are, they are unlikely to know where on the platform to stand for the relevant carriage to pull up alongside them. On the busiest services, the guard/”train manager” has made regular announcements informing passengers of the location of the luggage storage area. However, these announcements are useless if it is completely impossible for passengers with large luggage to move through the train due to it being completely rammed. Even if a train is reasonably quiet, a passenger with large, bulky and/or heavy items of luggage may not be inclined to go to the effort of hauling their gear down the narrow aisles of two carriages to the luggage area if they board the train in the wrong place.

AFAIK, the luggage storage area on XC's voyagers has a CCTV camera overlooking it (in theory so passengers could deposit their luggage without worrying about whether it'll be stolen), but the CCTV camera faces the wrong way, which negates the purpose of installing it. I've noticed on many trains with limited luggage space that passengers prefer to stand in the vestibule with their luggage rather than place it on one of the tacks because they're afraid their luggage might be stolen. Ideally, a few seats would be removed from each Voyager to allow for larger luggage racks to be installed, but the DfT would be opposed to this since the seating capacity of each Voyager would be reduced
 

Hydro

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2007
Messages
2,204
AFAIK, the luggage storage area on XC's voyagers has a CCTV camera overlooking it (in theory so passengers could deposit their luggage without worrying about whether it'll be stolen), but the CCTV camera faces the wrong way, which negates the purpose of installing it. I've noticed on many trains with limited luggage space that passengers prefer to stand in the vestibule with their luggage rather than place it on one of the tacks because they're afraid their luggage might be stolen. Ideally, a few seats would be removed from each Voyager to allow for larger luggage racks to be installed, but the DfT would be opposed to this since the seating capacity of each Voyager would be reduced

Regarding luggage space, I utterly lament the death of the guards van, but I understand that having all the luggage concentrated in one space would be detrimental to dwell times at stations. Plus, as you say, a large empty space wouldn't be liked at the DfT as you could cram a few more seats in there.

Still, it was nice being able to store bikes, parcels, suitcases, large instruments, shopping, pushchairs et al in a space that was out of the way, under the eye of the guard, and was of a fairly large size. Oh, and not having to book a space for a bike in advance! Plus a decent guard would let you smoke in there.
 

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,665
MML only intended meridians to displace 170s om the slower services. Likewise 180s were only intended for shorter fgw services. Virgin ordered them for core services which they arnt suited but perhaps they could replace xc 170s? What's happening to those 5 adelantes surely gc should take them those powercars will come in handy for ex mk3 trailers
 

sprinterguy

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,565
Location
Macclesfield
AFAIK, the luggage storage area on XC's voyagers has a CCTV camera overlooking it (in theory so passengers could deposit their luggage without worrying about whether it'll be stolen), but the CCTV camera faces the wrong way, which negates the purpose of installing it. I've noticed on many trains with limited luggage space that passengers prefer to stand in the vestibule with their luggage rather than place it on one of the tacks because they're afraid their luggage might be stolen. Ideally, a few seats would be removed from each Voyager to allow for larger luggage racks to be installed, but the DfT would be opposed to this since the seating capacity of each Voyager would be reduced

Yeah, a lot of people like to have their luggage within their line of sight at all times, to reassure themselves that nothing has been stolen (myself included but I’m happy to use the end of carriage luggage racks as long as I’m seated anywhere within that carriage). If it were possible to reduce the size of all but one of the toilets on the Voyagers during a mid-life refurb, then it would create a handy amount of space for some decent sized luggage racks adjacent to the smaller toilets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
MML only intended meridians to displace 170s om the slower services. Likewise 180s were only intended for shorter fgw services. Virgin ordered them for core services which they arnt suited but perhaps they could replace xc 170s? What's happening to those 5 adelantes surely gc should take them those powercars will come in handy for ex mk3 trailers
It would be good to see GC and Hull Trains sharing a common pool of 180s, which would surely help reliability of the trains to an extent, with Grand Centrals’ HSTs going to Crosscountry. Although in a perfect world I would have liked to have seen the fourteen 180s go to the Wales and Borders franchise after FGW got rid of them: If they had been allocated to and serviced at Alstoms’ dedicated Chester depot that deals with the mechanically similar175s then perhaps they would be proving to be more reliable trains by now, and they would offer welcome extra capacity on the Manchester to Holyhead and North to South Wales routes.
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,270
Regarding smelly toilets, I don't believe that the problem is any worse on a Voyager than on, say, Desiro's (which also operate the Crewe to London route).

At least there is a door on a Voyager to separate the toilet from the seating area! In my opinion the problem is worse on Desiro's (and on many other commuter style trains) because the toilet is right opposite the seats. Many times I've had to more carriages because it stank!
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
MML only intended meridians to displace 170s om the slower services

They bought some as nine coaches designed for London - Leeds services
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would be good to see GC and Hull Trains sharing a common pool of 180s, which would surely help reliability of the trains to an extent, with Grand Centrals’ HSTs going to Crosscountry

I agree with one fewer TOC running from London to Doncaster, though I'd rather there were two fewer

Although in a perfect world I would have liked to have seen the fourteen 180s go to the Wales and Borders franchise after FGW got rid of them: If they had been allocated to and serviced at Alstoms’ dedicated Chester depot that deals with the mechanically similar175s then perhaps they would be proving to be more reliable trains by now, and they would offer welcome extra capacity on the Manchester to Holyhead and North to South Wales routes.

I can't see the need for five coach 125mph trains on Holyhead - Cardiff.

However, I could see the logic in giving the 180s to Virgin for use on London - Chester - Holyhead services thus releasing twenty 221s (the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh service would move to EMU operation, as it already should have) - this releases plenty Voyagers to XC, allows the 180s to be maintained at Chester (if required) and Virgin keep five coach 125mph trains for their WCML paths. Worth withdrawing the GC London - Bradford service for the greater good IMHO
 

sprinterguy

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,565
Location
Macclesfield
I can't see the need for five coach 125mph trains on Holyhead - Cardiff.

However, I could see the logic in giving the 180s to Virgin for use on London - Chester - Holyhead services thus releasing twenty 221s (the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh service would move to EMU operation, as it already should have) - this releases plenty Voyagers to XC, allows the 180s to be maintained at Chester (if required) and Virgin keep five coach 125mph trains for their WCML paths. Worth withdrawing the GC London - Bradford service for the greater good IMHO

That makes a lot of sense. I failed to consider that there's no reason why Virgin need to stay wedded to Voyagers. That idea would still allow them to be shedded at Chester as well, alongside the 175s, nice.

While the 125mph capability of the 180s would be of no use on Holyhead to Cardiff/Manchester workings, some of the busiest diagrams could definitely do with the extra capacity, and it would be a step up in the quality of the service on the most well used runs.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,544
Nice ideas there. I can however see virgin grumbling at the 180s lack of tilt. Would shuffling the vt pack as above allow enough pendos for scotland brum?
 

sprinterguy

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,565
Location
Macclesfield
Nice ideas there. I can however see virgin grumbling at the 180s lack of tilt. Would shuffling the vt pack as above allow enough pendos for scotland brum?

Oh heck, yeah that's the issue with giving the 180s to VT. No tilt means that they'd be limited to 110mph max and less still than the EPS limits on the more sinuous sections of the WCML. I'd forgotten about that. I think the only way to remove Super Vomiters from the Birmingham to Scotland flows is, as tbtc says, a new build of EMUs for the route.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
I can however see virgin grumbling at the 180s lack of tilt

At the moment the Virgin Voyagers tilt a fair bit on the WCML north of Preston (given the lack of straight lines in the Lake District etc)

If my cunning plan happened, and Virgin got new EMUs for the Birmingham - Edinburgh/Glasgow route then they'd only need 180s on the London - Chester - Holyhead service.

Are there enough bends on the WCML from London to Crewe for the lack of tilt being an issue?

(genuine question, I don't know, I've only tilted north of Preston before)
 

sprinterguy

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,565
Location
Macclesfield
At the moment the Virgin Voyagers tilt a fair bit on the WCML north of Preston (given the lack of straight lines in the Lake District etc)

If my cunning plan happened, and Virgin got new EMUs for the Birmingham - Edinburgh/Glasgow route then they'd only need 180s on the London - Chester - Holyhead service.

Are there enough bends on the WCML from London to Crewe for the lack of tilt being an issue?

(genuine question, I don't know, I've only tilted north of Preston before)

Both the Trent Valley and the area of the WCML around Tring require tilting trains in order to acheive the full line speed at the EPS limit. The sinuous section around Tring is especially notable for the switchback nature of the curves, and is great fun on a Pendolino.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
Both the Trent Valley and the area of the WCML around Tring require tilting trains in order to acheive the full line speed at the EPS limit. The sinuous section around Tring is especially notable for the switchback nature of the curves, and is great fun on a Pendolino.

Fair enough, cheers, I've not been on that stretch of line since before the WCML was upgraded a (good) few years ago
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,210
Location
UK
Thats a nice idea. Wonder which TOC will be the first to take it up!!!

I would support that idea, more legroom (for partially paralysed people they can get out their chair without worrying about blood clots or stuff due to cramped seats) mare assistants to help them if they have problems. The only thing i can see is what if a disabled person is travelling in a group that dont have first? do they sit on their own? maybe with their carer?
 

dalmahoyhill

Member
Joined
7 Jan 2011
Messages
93
Location
Scotland
they are still used on the edinburgh/glasgow- birmingham new street services. ironic as the entire journey is under the wires. still not enough pendolinos to replace them.

they tilt less than a pendolino so they are slightly slower round curves on a pendolino. i notice the speed boards on the windy clyde valley stretch show about 10mph lower speed than a pendolino.

the other way to tell a super apart from a bog standard version is the bogies. the normal voyagers have internal bogies with exposed wheel sets. the super voyagers have what looks like a conventional bogie.

still i would concur with most of the posters, they are horrible!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top