Virgin Trains

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone, just curious as to why there are so many Virgin Trains bashers on here!

Me and my family travel by Virgin once month to visit my in ln-Laws in Lancashire and the standard of service is excellent, even on a busy Friday / Sunday evening. The trains are busy but surely that is the sign of a successful company?

In my experience i would say that problems with the service are down to Network Rail / factors beyond reasonable control rather than Virgin Trains themselves. And the DFT for dragging their heels in allowing Virgin to use a brand new train which is currently parked at Edge Hill!

I look forward to your responses!

 

[Failed Unit]

When you look at their crimes.

Pendolino - many things not to like about it BUT can anyone show me a better tilting train? (the voyager )
Timetable? - DFT probably more influence about that.
Running out of food in 1st - they can't help extra demand from airlines.

They have not done badly, for me I don't think they are good enough for extensions / renewal without competion. We have had worse operators over on the east coast.

The cash only shop (with not enough change) to me is their biggest sin within their control. The cynic in me thinks they want decline sales so the can close it with lack of demand the justification.

As for West Coast 2 - would I care if it was Virgin - no as long as they have the best bid. Would I care if it was national express, definately.

 

[CosherB]

When you look at their crimes.

Pendolino - many things not to like about it BUT can anyone show me a better tilting train?

APT. Faster, proper windows, better seats, and wider internally so less claustrophobic.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Agreed about the cash only shop but why don't people stock up before they get on the train? Save's a lot of money that way!

 

[Zoe]

APT. Faster, proper windows, better seats, and wider internally so less claustrophobic.

That may well be the case but it was still going to rely on separate power cars. We had a long discussion about this in another thread and it was concluded that a multiple unit will always be superior to loco hauled stock.

 

[RichmondCommu]

APT. Faster, proper windows, better seats, and wider internally so less claustrophobic.

And extremely unrealiable although it did at least pioneer the way for tilting trains. To be honest most passengers wouldn't know an APT from their elbow!

 

[SS4]

If I was slightly more cynical I'd say it stems in no small part from Virgin's moderation of competition which allegedly led to the demise of WSMR.

I myself have had no real problems on the Pendolino, sure the seats could be longer but since I stand at 6'1" it's hardly Virgin's fault and in common with all TOC seats. I'm not a fan of the food but I've never travelled during peak hours (far too expensive in 1st) and the shop is pretty good for the train, after all most people buy beforehand anyway and remember, the more food stored, the less room for seats after a certain point.

I think Virgin are helped by the fact they're the quickest between most of their destinations.

 

[CosherB]

It was unreliable because it was an undeveloped prototype. The tilt technology went to Italy - who developed it, then sold it back to us!

But my point really is that there is absolutely no reason why a Pendelino couldn't have been built with the proper windows, better seats, and wider internally so less claustrophobic characteristics that APT had.

Both tilted, both have to fit the same loading gauge.

 

[Failed Unit]

Agreed about the cash only shop but why don't people stock up before they get on the train? Save's a lot of money that way!

Personally most of my journeys are above 4 hours, it is nice to have a freshly made hot drink for that length of journey, but I do now the shop is exact money only. I suspect journeys around the 2 hour mark many probably will use the station. However if you travel in the evening many stations catering outlets start shutting at about 6 with very few open after 8pm. I found this out the hard way when on the 1630 London - Glasgow virgin wanted exact money only, luckily I had enough time before my connection to go to the chippy! I was very hungry by then and would have hit M&s if i had known!

Same problem with early morning travellers although most open by 0630.

 

[Zoe]

But my point really is that there is absolutely no reason why a Pendelino couldn't have been built with the proper windows, better seats, and wider internally so less claustrophobic characteristics that APT had.

The 390s had to be crashworthy at 140 mph. Small windows I beleive were the easiest way to do this. Remember also that Pendolinos existed before 390s did and they also had small windows. It was an off the shelf train adapted for Great Britain as discussed in other threads.

 

[Statto]

Main problem people have with VT is the high Anytime fares for those who can't book in advance & have to travel on Peak trains, the only thing i hate with the Pendelinos is they feel claustrophobic, & seats a bit too small.

The ATP could have worked if BR hadn't rushed it into service.

 

[WestCoast]

I speak as a very regular user of Virgin Trains, recently I have been using Virgin for the short Preston - Lancaster journey up to three times a week. They are also the TOC I use for my travels up to Scotland and to the South East.

Firstly, they are one of the longest established TOCs on the network, and despite the loss of CrossCountry, they still have a strong presence and must have been doing something right.

They are a good TOC, but I would not go further than that as I feel they could improve quite easily. The Pendolinos are not as bad as some people make out, when I want to sleep I love the seats nearest to the cab in the quiet coach, window view () and lots of privacy, plus I think think the legroom is perfectly adequate. However, the aisles are too narrow and it becomes horrendous when people put their cases in the aisle, when you want to pass it's also a nightmare. Also the many windowless seats and slight feel of being cramped can make it feel a bit uncomfortable, especially if the train is busy (which it often is!)

What I like about Virgin:
-Fast Journey Times (DfT)
-Reliability is generally good
-99% friendly staff, proffessional and polite
-Their marketing is well-thought out and humorous - "Belinda Carlisle was Right - Heaven is a place on earth" made me laugh at Euston
-The reliable free Wi-Fi has been great recently (shame it ends soon)

Not so good:
-They don't even try to check the tickets on the shorter journeys - makes me wonder why I pay. I've told them many times and they do absolutely nothing about it- no onboard RPIs on Virgin and no barriers at most of their stations, they must lose a fortune!
-The shop seems to be getting more and more unreliable and disinterested. First, it went cash only. Then the other day I was on a Preston to London service, queuing for a coffee and the lady in the shop just closed up shouting "sorry, I'm really really sorry" - about 8 customers money was lost
-Many of their stations have not had any investment whatsoever
-High Anytime fares (even on the short journeys I use, you really notice the difference between the ones priced by Northern and the Virgin ones) and highly restrictive off-peak times

 

[Failed Unit]

-The reliable free Wi-Fi has been great recently (shame it ends soon)

Really - That seems a bit odd, I wonder if it wasn't used as much as they had hoped (or didn't cause passengers to upgrade to 1st)

Not so good:
-They don't even try to check the tickets on the shorter journeys - makes me wonder why I pay. I've told them many times and they do absolutely nothing about it- no onboard RPIs on Virgin and no barriers at most of their stations, they must lose a fortune!
-The shop seems to be getting more and more unreliable and disinterested. First, it went cash only. Then the other day I was on a Preston to London service, queuing for a coffee and the lady in the shop just closed up shouting "sorry, I'm really really sorry" - about 8 customers money was lost
-Many of their stations have not had any investment whatsoever

Yes I have noticed all the above points, when you compare what the shorter franchises have achieved with stations Virgin seem very investment shy. Yes why should they spend without a return, but over on the East Coast they must be getting some money out of all the Costa concessions they have on thier stations. Even unloved Newark is in a quite good condition compared to say some on the WCML.

I honestly think Virgin are wanting rid of the shop and are running it down to justify closing it.

I can see the press release now.
We regret we are closing the shop, passengers don't want it as revenue is down by 90% {a drop which co-incides with the dropping of the credit cards}. The shop loses £10M per annum money that would be better spent on providing a higher premium! They have certainly lost a passenger there, I stopped using NXEC for food for a while when they were constantly running out of stock but have now returned no you can normally get what you want.

 

[WestCoast]

-The reliable free Wi-Fi has been great recently (shame it ends soon)

Really - That seems a bit odd, I wonder if it wasn't used as much as they had hoped (or didn't cause passengers to upgrade to 1st)

I was pleasantly surprised - I brought my laptop for my trip to London. I expected it to be slow and unreliable, but despite quite a few people using it that I could see in my carriage it was perfectly usable.

I believe it is a T-Mobile system - which is probably why it is better that East Coast's free WiFi was!

 

[SS4]

Really - That seems a bit odd, I wonder if it wasn't used as much as they had hoped (or didn't cause passengers to upgrade to 1st)

From what I understand it was only ever a trial basis sponsored (I think) by google which was always going to expire. I was surprised with the speed though although unfortunately they don't do audio streaming so I could listen to the football on the droid!

 

[WestCoast]

From what I understand it was only ever a trial basis sponsored (I think) by google which was always going to expire. I was surprised with the speed though although unfortunately they don't do audio streaming so I could listen to the football on the droid!

Yes it has been free in Standard since (I think) the beginning of this year, but it was only for a short period sponsored by Google.

http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/trains/wi-fi/

Free, in First Class. And we've partnered with Google, so it's also free in Standard until 28 February 2011.

 

[Daimler]

They are a good TOC, but I would not go further than that as I feel they could improve quite easily. The Pendolinos are not as bad as some people make out, when I want to sleep I love the seats nearest to the cab in the quiet coach, window view () and lots of privacy, plus I think think the legroom is perfectly adequate. However, the aisles are too narrow and it becomes horrendous when people put their cases in the aisle, when you want to pass it's also a nightmare. Also the many windowless seats and slight feel of being cramped can make it feel a bit uncomfortable, especially if the train is busy (which it often is!)

They are pretty much the best seats on the train (in standard class, anyway).

My main gripe with Virgin lies in the rolling stock - I don't like the 390s at all. I'm well aware that any mention of the 390s carries with it a large risk of sparking yet another heated debate as to their merits/probelms, but I just don't like them. They are, in my opinion, (generally) uncomfortable, cramped, and frequently smelly - it has nothing to do with whether or not there's a locomotive at the front (or indeed the rear!).

In other respects, Virgin haven't done too badly - the timetable is extremely frequent, though I have certain reservations with regard to the sheer extent to which Virgin have made it 'clockface' (try going direct from Watford Junction or Milton Keynes to anywhere north of Manchester - and this isn't the only example). In my opinion, this makes the service less flexible and consequently less attractive to those travellers not going to London (admittedly a minority).

Their marketing and PR is generally pretty good, though this is hardly a primary concern for me as a user of their services.

They aren't fortunate with regard to the stations they serve - Euston, Birmingham, and many of the West Coast intermediate stations either are brutalist 1960s monstrosities or seem to present an unloved, uncared for image (I found poor Crewe particularly forlorn last time I was there).

I also seem to recall reading that before privatisation, the West Coast intercity services were profit-making - when one considers that now Virgin are being paid to run trains, this shows the company in a rather different light (though from the point of view of purely personal like/dislike, is of course less significant).

 

[Failed Unit]

I see - I misunderstood your post - I thought Virgin were withdrawing wi-fi altogether! Rather than reverting to free in first (can standard class coach D if you are on a Voyager) and charging in standard.

 

[CosherB]

The ATP could have worked if BR hadn't rushed it into service.

Well, that's becuase they were strapped for cash by the government, as usual. I'm told the entire budget for APT was simialr to that of BL when they 'upgraded' the Mini to the Mini Metro. In other words, peanuts.

The APT was remarkable technology for its time, especially considering how cash-starved the team were. The Italians took the tilt technology from the APT team and put in the neccessary investment to produce a reliable product. then they sold it back to us!

One thing about the 390s is their ability to give fast journey times; excellent acceleration being the main reason. Think how much quicker the journey would be if the awful WCML had actually been upgraded to 140mph as promised to Virgin when the 390s were ordered!

 

[WestCoast]

I see - I misunderstood your post - I thought Virgin were withdrawing wi-fi altogether! Rather than reverting to free in first (can standard class coach D if you are on a Voyager) and charging in standard.

It was a little vague when I re-read it.

They aren't fortunate with regard to the stations they serve - Euston, Birmingham, and many of the West Coast intermediate stations either are brutalist 1960s monstrosities or seem to present an unloved, uncared for image (I found poor Crewe particularly forlorn last time I was there).

Yes, but they have failed to make even the most basic improvements to some of their stations, a lick of paint here and there, chairs and new windows in the waiting rooms at Warrington Bank Quay, even a decent retail outlet like Costa. These are intercity stations after all! The stations north of Preston are all quite nice though. I would even advocate the installation of barriers at Wigan and Warrington, it would help alleviate the problems of short-distance fare evasion on this section of the line.

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe it is a T-Mobile system - which is probably why it is better that East Coast's free WiFi was!

In fairness to the East Coast system they were one of the earliest (if not first actually) to adopt on train WiFi (whilst in the guise of GNER), as such they used the available tech, which of course was quickly eclipsed in terms of capability (hence why the 390s WiFi is better, its more modern). To compound this NXEC then went and made WiFi free to all, resulting in the terrible quality as everyone was on trying to download all sorts.

Hopefully now that the WiFi is back to be charged for in standard and free only in first the actual quality will have improved as less demand is placed on the system.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, but they have failed to make even the most basic improvements to some of their stations, a lick of paint here and there, chairs and new windows in the waiting rooms at Warrington Bank Quay, even a decent retail outlet like Costa. These are intercity stations after all! The stations north of Preston are all quite nice though. I would even advocate the installation of barriers at Wigan and Warrington, it would help alleviate the problems of short-distance fare evasion on this section of the line.

It also makes me wonder (as I honestly don't know) at the time BR was privatised was the conditions of WCML stations so much worse than East Coast stations. If Lord Adonis had done the stations champion report in 1996 would 70% of the worse stations named belong to Inter-City West Coast. Did BR run down Crewe, Warrington etc? I know Peterborough has its faults but at least the various east coast operators have spent some money on it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

i hope the next wc franchise does something about the shop situation

 

[Zoe]

i hope the next wc franchise does something about the shop situation

Would you prefer at seat service rather than a shop?

 

[WestCoast]

Would you prefer at seat service rather than a shop?

A trolley would never be able to get down the aisles, they are always full of luggage:roll:

 

[strange6]

It was a little vague when I re-read it.



Yes, but they have failed to make even the most basic improvements to some of their stations, a lick of paint here and there, chairs and new windows in the waiting rooms at Warrington Bank Quay, even a decent retail outlet like Costa. These are intercity stations after all! The stations north of Preston are all quite nice though. I would even advocate the installation of barriers at Wigan and Warrington, it would help alleviate the problems of short-distance fare evasion on this section of the line.

Believe you me, it's very easy to get on at North Western and depart at Preston travelling by Virgin without paying when the ticket office is shut.

 

[WestCoast]

Believe you me, it's very easy to get on at North Western and depart at Preston travelling by Virgin without paying when the ticket office is shut.

Same situation at Lancaster and all the stations on this section. People wanting to pay, but the "train manager (as Virgin call them)" doesn't come down. I have told them about it many times, nothing ever gets done!

 

[strange6]

Same situation at Lancaster and all the stations on this section. People wanting to pay, but the "train manager (as Virgin call them)" doesn't come down. I have told them about it many times, nothing ever gets done!

I always make sure a tenner is visible in my hand so that people can see that I'm ready to pay but nobody ever comes and It drops me next to the exit at Preston. Not my fault

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I always make sure a tenner is visible in my hand so that people can see that I'm ready to pay but nobody ever comes and It drops me next to the exit at Preston. Not my fault

Buy a ticket at your destination then.

Virgin won't install ticket gates at Wigan NW and Warrington BQ as they wouldn't want to protect other franchises revenue, look at Coventry, they didn't like Central benefitting too.

 

[WestCoast]

Buy a ticket at your destination then.

If it's late then Preston office is likely to also be closed.

Virgin won't install ticket gates at Wigan NW and Warrington BQ as they wouldn't want to protect other franchises revenue, look at Coventry, they didn't like Central benefitting too.

But it is mainly their own revenue as they are the dominant operator, Northern and ATW usually check tickets after departing from Wigan/Warrington, they aren't losing out.

I get the impression they just aren't bothered about short-distance fares, which is NOT the impression I get from FGW and East Coast (and NXEC before).