Virgin Trains West Coast - Off-Peak Return

[ValleyLines142]

Currently on board a Pendolino towards Euston (not identifying the service for employee confidentiality). I hold an Off-Peak Return from Cardiff to Manchester Stations. On my ticket there is a link to condition 8A on the NRE website, which states that there are no restrictions on return travel (although oddly it also states there are no restrictions on outward travel either; a bit misleading giving I have an 'Off-Peak' ticket!). Train manager checks my ticket and is adamant my ticket is invalid. He checks his machine, in the meantime I show him the link to NRE and after ignoring what I am showing him, he simply replies 'oh, no there isn't'.

Just a bit shellshocked really as that is not the kind of heart attack I want at 6.30 on a Monday morning as I'm potentially about to pay an astronomical price to upgrade ON TOP of the ticket I hold already, no apology whatsoever despite being in the wrong. What would have happened if I hadn't have showed him the quote printed on my ticket? If that was my mother or any other relatives of mine they'd have just forked out whatever the upgrade was.

Ridiculous really how I've had to prove myself when I'm not even a train guard. I realise we're all human, we all make mistakes and I can accept that 100% but I wonder whether such a cocky, adamant attitude is the way to go? Part of me believes very firmly that re-training in ticketing is needed!

Any thoughts?

 

[Merseysider]

This isn’t uncommon from VTWC ime.

Put this in an email to VTWC and give them the train and staff member’s name, if you saw it. Perhaps leave out the word cocky.

 

[Haywain]

I would think that he'll have trouble charging you an excess fare when there isn't a higher priced Anytime fare for the journey you're making.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There is one and only return fare between Cardiff and Manchester which is Any Permitted Route.

Dan whilst technically your not "off piste" providing you change off the Euston service by Stafford the day to day reality is someone using VTWC to travel between Manchester and Cardiff is like rocking horse poo given there's a direct ATW service every hour and numerous one change options with Cross Country at Birmingham New St or Bristol Parkway.

The ticket itself is very rare in that you can travel on peak Virgin and Peak Cross Country trains with it. I would expect VTWC staff to query it simply because they probably have no experience of seeing one before.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Just out of interest then, why is this an off-peak fare when it is valid at anytime? Why not call it an anytime fare?

 

[Haywain]

Just out of interest then, why is this an off-peak fare when it is valid at anytime? Why not call it an anytime fare?

Probably because of the need to maintain a regulated fare, whereas an Anytime would not be regulated.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Just out of interest then, why is this an off-peak fare when it is valid at anytime? Why not call it an anytime fare?

Looking at the fares on BRFares, I noticed that there is a first class anytime fare for this route, but not one for standard class. The anytime first permits break of journey on the outbound, but both the standard and first class off-peak fares do not. So it could be to allow for that restriction.

**EDIT: Haywain's answer is very likely the main reason for it, but I imagine this does come into it as well.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just out of interest then, why is this an off-peak fare when it is valid at anytime? Why not call it an anytime fare?

Its a regulated old BR Saver Fare dating back to when BR InterCity controlled these these flows and it was assumed all InterCity journeys were via Birmingham. The powers that be decided to rename them Off Peak for simplification. You can find a plenty more of them. Cardiff to Liverpool,Crewe, Stockport, Wilmslow, Runcorn, Chester are the same as is Wigan North Western yet Preston has an Anytime Fare.

In fact everything in ATW territory from Cardiff once you get to Craven Arms northward is Off Peak Return only. Ludlow and South you can get day returns in between Craven Arms and Ludlow was the old London Midland/Western Region boundary!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have been queried on using an off-peak Northampton-Knutsford during the morning peak, my response was that I purchased it on the VTWC website was sufficient. Fare no longer exists now during the morning peak

 

[ValleyLines142]

I travelled on the one that goes via Birmingham (0627 from Manchester), so only required a change there (I did say I wasn't going to identify the service but sod it!).

 

[bb21]

I travelled on the one that goes via Birmingham (0627 from Manchester), so only required a change there (I did say I wasn't going to identify the service but sod it!).

Your resistance is low.

Poor show by the TM but I doubt you'll gain much by complaining if I am perfectly honest. Have a rant about it, let off some steam and move on would be my advice, not that I prefer to defend the TM, just that I genuinely don't think there is much point tbh.

 

[gray1404]

It looks like the Train Manager may have got it into his head that "Off Peak tickets valid only between Manchester Stations and London Terminals are not valid on this service" and that translated in reality to "No Off Peak tickets are valid on this train regardless of origin, destination and restriction code." It is worrying that you were put in this stressful situation as not everyone would be able to assert themselves the way you did. You were travelling with a valid ticket so it is unfair this happened to you. I have no problem with tickets being inspected but I think, before declaring something as invalid, it would have been better to check first to be sure.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think - shock horror - there should be a website where everyone can verify whether or not a certain ticket is valid on a certain train between given stations! That way, if there is a dispute, there is no argument to be had. www.nationalrail.co.uk is nice and all, but it's not as simple as entering: Off-Peak Cardiff-Manchester; 06:27 MAN-EUS!

 

[Haywain]

You think that entering www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A into a browser and reading the words "Valid by any train" isn't simple enough?

 

[Gareth Marston]

In fairness how many Joe Public punters would join the only direct VTWC service from Manchester to Birmingham New St that day to change to get to Cardiff when 3 minutes later a direct train runs from Manchester to Cardiff that gets there half an hour earlier? Especially when theirs no cost saving.

No online journey planner offers this route by default you have to go play with the settings as you do on STAR Journey Planner.

Full Marks to Dan but wonderfully niche.

Just how many valid off peak tickets could you come across on the 0627 VTWC service from Piccadilly to New St?
These niche quirk ones that are rarely used I can understand being challenged - that's the complexity of our ticketing system. However its when day to day ones start getting challenged that's what you have to be really on guard for.

 

[ValleyLines142]

In fairness how many Joe Public punters would join the only direct VTWC service from Manchester to Birmingham New St that day to change to get to Cardiff when 3 minutes later a direct train runs from Manchester to Cardiff that gets there half an hour earlier? Especially when theirs no cost saving.

No online journey planner offers this route by default you have to go play with the settings as you do on STAR Journey Planner.

Full Marks to Dan but wonderfully niche.

Just how many valid off peak tickets could you come across on the 0627 VTWC service from Piccadilly to New St?
These niche quirk ones that are rarely used I can understand being challenged - that's the complexity of our ticketing system. However its when day to day ones start getting challenged that's what you have to be really on guard for.

There is the direct train at 0630 (1V33) which gets into Cardiff slightly earlier however I prefer the route via Birmingham as I am more likely to get a seat; furthermore, there are plug sockets on all of the trains that operate via this route which is handy for my phone.

Irrespective of this, whilst I completely accept the guard has a right to challenge my ticket, a simple 'sorry for any inconvenience caused' wouldn't have gone down a miss. I understand I was taking a quirky yet still valid route but it doesn't mean you can give passengers a heart attack and then just go 'oh actually sod that' and frig off into the next carriage!