Virgin Trains: Untouchable?

[MidnightFlyer]

Just briefly on the Virgin / Chiltern matter, I believe Chiltern deserve a tremendous amount of praise for their work - redoubling the majority of the northern half of the line up to Banbury, Aylesbury Vale Parkway, the ongoing Bicester Chord / Oxford work, introducing Clubmans, the Silver Trains and modifications to the sets thereof, new fast services throughout the day and in the morning peak epsecially between London and Birmingham, the list goes on: for all those saying there's no comparison, I'd very much like to see the current split of the London-Birmingham market compared to this time two or three years ago - I wouldn't at all be surprised if Chiltern have made significant ground on Virgin, I know they certainly did in the early days of Mainline.

If time wasn't such an issue for myself on days out, I'd use Chiltern over Virgin a lot more - on Chiltern you get an at-seat trolley, powerpoints at every seat, much more pleasant views and a lot nicer stations - plus for the Underground Baker St and its five lines served are only a couple of mins from Marylebone. The thing with Virgin I observe is that often (off-peak especially) the huge numbers are West Midlands local passengers - on my trips with them, I find 390s about 20-40% full between Coventry and Euston, and a lot, lot less on 11-car sets.

 

[Geezertronic]

And fuel is the only expense associated with a car? I think not...

Since you tax, MOT, insure and maintain a car for 365/6 days a year, that too is irrelevant in this instance

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Virgin all the way. I dont see any flaw in them, with nice trains and good service, what more can you ask for? Ok, they have their delays, but all trains are going to have delays at one point. Not saying Chiltern are bad though, rather good even though I only used them a few times to go and watch footy at Wembley.

 

[island]

Not in the least. If we were considering the cost of one extra journey (the marginal cost) then you might get away without counting insurance and motor tax (or whatever its proper name is, before I get a pedant jumping down my throat). But an extra journey will still put more wear and tear on the car, mean it has to be serviced earlier, parts replaced sooner, etc. etc.

 

[beeza1]

I love this "car is cheaper than train, or vice versa" argument, one thing that seems to get overlooked is that, for long journeys especially, most car journeys have more than one occupant, driver and 1 passenger means the cost per person is halved, 3 passengers and the cost is 25%, in this scenario rail travel does appear to be very expensive, especially at peak times.

 

[Dave1987]

I love this "car is cheaper than train, or vice versa" argument, one thing that seems to get overlooked is that, for long journeys especially, most car journeys have more than one occupant, driver and 1 passenger means the cost per person is halved, 3 passengers and the cost is 25%, in this scenario rail travel does appear to be very expensive, especially at peak times.

Don't know about anyone else but the thought of driving for 3 hours anywhere is not very appealing to me, would much rather relax with a book on the train or just close my eyes. Problem is also you get idiots on the roads who cut you up, don't obey traffic lights etc, don't get any of that on the railways.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The train would work out slightly cheaper for me than driving, but would be far more inconvenient.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

driver and 1 passenger means the cost per person is halved, 3 passengers and the cost is 25%.

33.3%, surely?

 

[Mr Spock]

33.3%, surely?

I took it that he meant 3 passengers plus the driver which would mean 4 people in the car.

 

[Roverman]

In the interests of fairness I've travelled to London today on Chiltern trains. Full report to follow when I get home.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I took it that he meant 3 passengers plus the driver which would mean 4 people in the car.

Ah, yes - that would make sense.

 

[Roverman]

Right I am home from London, where do I stick my report, here or Trip Reports?

 

[Dave1987]

Right I am home from London, where do I stick my report, here or Trip Reports?

Stick it here, might as well

 

[Requeststop]

Personally I have no time for Virgin and the winging bearded owner of the company. Everytime something goes against him be it for his airlines, train companies or other outlets that he has from cola drinks to loan companies or whatever, he is there on TV, radio and in the press crying that everything is so unfair, baised against him and that he and only he is the best. He's like the even worse Murdoch for snuggling up to the politicians when it suits him. No thank you Virgin (not so pure in heart). Chiltern for me by default.

By the way - First may have it's faults, but in GW terms it has improved over the last few years. I'm sure they'd improve the WML too.

 

[transmanche]

One of the guys at the LM assessment day works for Virgin Media and he pointed out to me that technically the business has nowt to do with Mr Branson as it is literally just a label on the firm.

I think Branson's Virgin Group owns about 10% of Virgin Media, the Virgin brand being used under licence.

It's the same with many Virgin-branded companies; not least Virgin Rail (51% owned by Virgin, 49% by Stagecoach) and Virgin Atlantic (51% Virgin, 49% Delta*).

*Who have just bought it from Singapore Airlines

 

[Roverman]

Chiltern Train Trip: Moor Street to London Marylebone Sunday January 6th 2012

Travelled on the 10:13 ‘Mainline’ service which was a Mark 3 coaches pulled by a Class 67 Loco 67013-Dyfrbont Pontcysyllte. Bought the tickets late Sat night £27.50 Super Off Peak Return, asked me if I wanted to reserve a seat so I said yes and got Coach ** Seat **. Bearing in mind I booked direct from their website you would think they would turn off the option if they can’t be bothered to fulfil the request!

I am unable to remember the last time I travelled on a Mk3 coach train as they were never used much on the South Coast to my knowledge. I may have been on one when my Nan and I travelled on a train about 18 years ago but cannot be certain. These coaches are now at least 25 years old and in some respects this shows in the design of them, things like the emergency pull handles which do not fit flush because that’s they how they were designed back then! But that is not to say they are not a nice train to travel on. These coaches and indeed the Loco were ex W&SR stock and had been extensively restored and updated in recent times. Although I did not like the colour scheme it looked good quality and hard wearing. The leather armrests looked a nice finishing touch, contrasting with the hard wearing seat fabric.

Chiltern describe the train as modern with big windows, I think they are stretching the truth slightly with modern as we all know how old the Mk3 stock is but I can’t disagree with the large windows. Its something I noticed with the APT prototype at Crewe, just how light and airy the interior was compared to a Pendolino or Voyager which seem to need a lot of electric lighting even on sunny days. I am told though that modern safety rules prevent new trains having large windows and I think that’s a shame.

The layout however was excellent, almost every seat was at a table and they had been laid out well in order to provide all passengers with a view out of the window. There were plug sockets throughout the train and free wifi, which although a bit temperamental on the way down to London worked well on the whole.

I was very impressed with the toilets, whilst the smaller one will never be DDA complaint its an excellent use of the space, I particularly liked the Dyson Airblade dryer (never seen one on a train before) and the shallow sink with silver soap dispenser. It all looked well thought out and good quality.

The journey was timetabled to take just over 2 hours and we would be calling at Solihull, Dorridge, Warwick Parkway, Warwick, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Bicester North and then ‘express’ to Marylebone arriving at 12:16pm. During the week the peak service does it quicker by only calling at Solihull, Warwick Parkway and Banbury this express service is just 15 mins longer than the VT Pendolino service from New Street into Euston.

If Virgin were to be believed, Line Speed is where its at, they pushed for the WCML to be upgraded to 140mph but only got it to 125mph, whereas the Chiltern line is just 100mph max in places. Doubling it obviously helped but it still can’t match WCML for outright speed. However even if it could do 125mph would it match a VT? I don’t think it could unless it dropped stations from its timetable and I believe it could only do that if Chiltern was confident of filling the trains just from Moor St or Marylebone passengers and at the moment I don’t think they can do that. Even on my Sunday service people joined the train at Solihull and Warwick (interestingly no one got on at Warwick Parkway) they obviously liked the fact they could get a direct train to London even on a Sunday and didn’t have to go up to Birmingham or even drive across to Coventry to access the network.

Towards the back of the train was the ‘Espresso bar’ where they served Coffee, Tea, soft drinks and alcohol, I got a coffee and shortbread for less than £3 which I felt was very reasonable for a train! All the staff on board (1 TM, 1 Guard and 1 in the Espresso bar) were friendly but the on board announcements were very quiet indeed, and I struggled to hear them over the normal background noise of a passenger train!

I returned on the 18:33 from Marylebone and this time paid an extra £10 to upgrade to ‘Business Zone’, Chiltern do not operate a First Class in the conventional sense but instead offers anyone with a Standard ticket to upgrade (£20 during the week) to sit in the dedicated BZ coach either at the back (Southbound) or at the front (Northbound).

The seats are larger, they were certainly more comfortable and were in a 2+1 setup like one sees in First Class on VT or XC making the coach seem less congested than Standard. The seats themselves reclined by simple push button adjustment and you also got refreshments at your seat. I had the entire coach to myself and had 2 lovely piping hot cups of coffee on the return leg with a Host so attentive he tried to put milk in it, even though I told him I drink it black!!

I spoke with Soraya the Train Manager who was positive and bubbly, she enthused about the company and the passengers stating that it was a ‘nice company that attracted nice customers’. She told me that during the week they also sold hot snacks such as bacon and sausage rolls to customers and there seemed to be a continuous development to the service, with a desire by everyone to keep making it just that little bit better for the customer.

So all in all a very enjoyable trip out to London on a very nice train and for £27.50 a very nice price. Factor in the £8 I spent getting from Stafford to New Street and back (First Class Advances on XC) and the £10 Business Upgrade on the return leg brings it in at £45.50, which is still £13 cheaper than what Virgin want for their Off Peak return next Sunday. Add in a Weekend Upgrade (in the interests of fairness) and that gap increases to £23. Is it worth it to get you there a bit earlier? Not always.

 

[3141]

I've enjoyed that account. Thanks very much.

I'd question what you've been told about modern safety rules preventing new trains from having large windows. The windows in 170s and 444s are quite large. What might be true is that meeting the requirements for stiffness in the body shell makes it more difficult to cut larger openings for the windows.

 

[Roverman]

Thank you 3141 for your positive feedback, you may well be correct about the Shell stiffness being the reason why smaller windows tend to be fitted.

 

[Dave1987]

Roverman fantastic account which I also enjoyed reading, interesting the prices you paid compared to virgin. I have not travelled in the business zone on chiltern yet but am now very much inclined to try.

 

[pinguini]

I have to vote Virgin, as a frequent and generally happy user of their franchise.

I've used Chiltern on the odd occasion from Moor Street down to Marylebone as from time to time an advance ticket for under a fiver pops up which is too good to resist. I've travelled on their silver service train before too which I very much enjoyed, at no extra cost.

But from Coventry, going to Euston on Virgin is so much easier and often ridiculously cheap too.

 

[Dave1987]

I have to vote Virgin, as a frequent and generally happy user of their franchise.

I've used Chiltern on the odd occasion from Moor Street down to Marylebone as from time to time an advance ticket for under a fiver pops up which is too good to resist. I've travelled on their silver service train before too which I very much enjoyed, at no extra cost.

But from Coventry, going to Euston on Virgin is so much easier and often ridiculously cheap too.

I appreciate Virgin's service is fine but have stated that I don't think Virgin should be taking total credit. Whereas Chiltern have invested hugely in their own line but I appreciate your point of view.

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't honestly know what my local Chiltern station would be (probably Solihull or Tyseley if that counts?) but living 10 minutes away from Birmingham International is the reason I use VT (and not LM because they take too long for me).

I've often thought about using Chiltern just to try them out but never had the time.

 

[AlterEgo]

I appreciate Virgin's service is fine but have stated that I don't think Virgin should be taking total credit. Whereas Chiltern have invested hugely in their own line but I appreciate your point of view.

Does it really matter who takes the credit? Really?

I would much rather TOCs benefit from the "limelight" of service upgrades as they're the public face of the railway. Regardless of whether you think it's accurate or not, Virgin may well be seen as the saviours of the West Coast Main Line by many of the public. And that's why many people choose to use Virgin, and drop the car at home, and take the train.

Chiltern should be blowing their horn a lot more than they are doing, in my view. I don't give a monkeys who actually pays for the railway as long as more people use them - which is a Good Thing.

 

[Roverman]

I don't honestly know what my local Chiltern station would be (probably Solihull or Tyseley if that counts?) but living 10 minutes away from Birmingham International is the reason I use VT (and not LM because they take too long for me).

I've often thought about using Chiltern just to try them out but never had the time.

Tyseley is managed by LM but some Chilterns do stop there. Solihull would probably be the better bet if you wanted to catch a 'Mainline' to Moor St or Marylebone.

 

[Dave1987]

Does it really matter who takes the credit? Really?

I would much rather TOCs benefit from the "limelight" of service upgrades as they're the public face of the railway. Regardless of whether you think it's accurate or not, Virgin may well be seen as the saviours of the West Coast Main Line by many of the public. And that's why many people choose to use Virgin, and drop the car at home, and take the train.

Chiltern should be blowing their horn a lot more than they are doing, in my view. I don't give a monkeys who actually pays for the railway as long as more people use them - which is a Good Thing.

I agree chiltern should be advertising their investment far far more. And I also see what you mean regarding virgin taking the limelight.

 

[MCR247]

I do like their "Still a Virgin?" advert as you come out of New Street

 

[D365]

I do like their "Still a Virgin?" advert as you come out of New Street

I saw that one coming in on a 350/2!

 

[AndyLandy]

Does it really matter who takes the credit? Really?

I would much rather TOCs benefit from the "limelight" of service upgrades as they're the public face of the railway. Regardless of whether you think it's accurate or not, Virgin may well be seen as the saviours of the West Coast Main Line by many of the public. And that's why many people choose to use Virgin, and drop the car at home, and take the train.

Chiltern should be blowing their horn a lot more than they are doing, in my view. I don't give a monkeys who actually pays for the railway as long as more people use them - which is a Good Thing.

That's a really interesting viewpoint, and makes a lot of sense, tbh. The travelling public largely don't understand or care about Network Rail and infrastructure improvements for their own sake. But they can relate to "Virgin Trains now offering faster and more frequent trains"

 

[BlythPower]

But from Coventry, going to Euston on Virgin is so much easier and often ridiculously cheap too.

If you're lucky enough to get a rare advance, perhaps. Otherwise, Virgin is ridiculously expensive. London Midland provide the best combination of walk-up fare and flexibility for me. Those override the journey time for my requirements.

 

[glbotu]

I think this should not be a case of "Virgin Trains is doing the wrong thing", instead "Why is everyone else not doing what Virgin is doing?"

I mean, I think what is being missed in this thread is how can you make the general public feel like you're doing a good job, which should at least in part be a portion of your remit as a TOC. If everyone thinks you're terrible, your ridership goes down (not as much as it would in a solid competitive environment, rather than the local-monopoly system employed, but I digress) and less investment becomes available for your lines. London Overground has shown that if you make your lines shiny, more people will use them - look at GOBLIN - yes I know frequencies have increased, but the ridership has increased considerably more, resulting in overcrowding and a request to tender for new trains/train extenstions to the already brand new Class 172 s.

The problem is that the companies who run most of the rail franchises aren't particularly clued in to marketing. Virgin were pretty much the only ones who had that kind of extensive marketing experience - useful when you want to run things such as airlines and generic consumer products with established alternatives (Cola from Coke, Music from HMV, Virgin Airlines competing with flag-carrier BA etc.)

Most of the past experience of the TOC is in buses (First, Arriva etc.), coaches (NatEx) or British Rail (Prism, Great Western Holdings) . The first two are both things that don't need to be marketed, they just rely on low cost or complete monopoly for their business. British Rail, while a railway company, was also technically a public service and didn't really need to market itself. Virgin were in a great place, they had a phenomenally established brand throughout the UK, because they'd spent years doing it. They just needed to apply the same level of brand diligence to their train services and things like punctuality stop being as much of an issue. If First had the same level of awareness when it came to brand image, the argument over the tendering process may never even have happened as the public would have been overjoyed to see the "fantastic" GW service applied to the WCML, rather than be replaced by a company who's well known for treating one DMU as another (142 on Cardiff to Bristol), extensive late running (known for, doesn't have to be true) and some random bus services (buses are always terrible anyway in terms of brand image, you take them because they're cheap and go where you want them to).