Virgin Trains: Untouchable?

[dk1]

I've no opinion either way but I just find it strange that people complain that the VT peak fares are high, the 390s are uncomfortable and smell, yet the vast majority of services in the peaks are loaded sometimes to bursting. There are other travelling options such as the car or the coach but these cannot compete with the journey time of the train which makes it the most viable option for the majority during the peaks despite the cost of the fare

Its been said so many times on business where an employer pays then nobody cares about the price its flexability & speed that counts.

Also the DfT has approved a modification program with Virgin/Alsthom to sort the odour problem out.

 

[AndyLandy]

Yes because I can see that Virgin are just as bad as any other TOC's. it's just other TOC's don't try and claim credit for improvements that were not down to them!! But people who worship Virgin don't seem to be able to see the wood for the trees. Or at least wont admit virgin are not all they make themselves out be.

I reckon it goes both ways though, there are people who think there's some kind of SRB conspiracy going on and that he "threw his toys out of the pram" and is "throwing his weight around to get his own way".

Frankly, the whole thing just reminds me of Mac/PC or iPhone/Android arguments, far too many people on both sides get all overzealous and protective of their stance and rationality gets lost by the wayside.

As I've said in an earlier post, I'm largely happy with the service that VT provides on the West Coast, and I'm happy for them to continue in a "better the devil you know" sort of way. I like the brand, but have no particular grievance against FirstGroup either.

The long and short of it is that I'm not sure I understand what franchising is for. I've used the Wessex Main Line CDF-PMH service when it was Wales & West, Wessex Trains and First Great Western. Equally I've used the Mid Cheshire Railway when it was First North Western and now Northern. By and large, these services haven't changed a great deal over the last 12 years. The only notable change was the extension of the Wessex 158s to 3-car sets. In that vein, I'm not sure how a First West Coast franchise would look any different to a Virgin one.

 

[D365]

Even so, the franchising system shouldn't be any more or less biased to Virgin Trains/Stagecoach because of this debacle.

EDIT: Most of my post just now, describing how West Coast won't change significantly despite much of the public assuming the upgrade and Pendos 'belong' to Virgin, has disappeared. As other have mentioned. Dang.

 

[Dave1987]

I reckon it goes both ways though, there are people who think there's some kind of SRB conspiracy going on and that he "threw his toys out of the pram" and is "throwing his weight around to get his own way".

Frankly, the whole thing just reminds me of Mac/PC or iPhone/Android arguments, far too many people on both sides get all overzealous and protective of their stance and rationality gets lost by the wayside.

As I've said in an earlier post, I'm largely happy with the service that VT provides on the West Coast, and I'm happy for them to continue in a "better the devil you know" sort of way. I like the brand, but have no particular grievance against FirstGroup either.

The long and short of it is that I'm not sure I understand what franchising is for. I've used the Wessex Main Line CDF-PMH service when it was Wales & West, Wessex Trains and First Great Western. Equally I've used the Mid Cheshire Railway when it was First North Western and now Northern. By and large, these services haven't changed a great deal over the last 12 years. The only notable change was the extension of the Wessex 158s to 3-car sets. In that vein, I'm not sure how a First West Coast franchise would look any different to a Virgin one.

I never said Virgin running the west coast for next 15 odd years was a bad thing BUT why are they allowed to claim credit for improvements not entirely down to them? Like I said before if other lines had the same investment as the WCML I'm sure other TOC's would seem god like in the same way Virgin are.

I hate to say this but people are fickle, if they see a shiny new train they automatically think they are brilliant. Unfortunately new trains cost hundreds of millions of £'s just look at IEP.

 

[AndyLandy]

I hate to say this but people are fickle, if they see a shiny new train they automatically think they are brilliant. Unfortunately new trains cost hundreds of millions of £'s just look at IEP.

Actually, you don't even have to provide new trains, as SWT discovered when they refurbished some old 423 '4VEP' units for the Lymington branch. The passengers loved the 'new' trains, despite them just being refreshed old Mk1 slammers.

I genuinely believe that if you did a deep clean and upholstery refresh of the Northern Sprinters and put an impressive livery on the outside, many passengers would think they've been given new trains.

 

[87015]

Actually, you don't even have to provide new trains, as SWT discovered when they refurbished some old 423 '4VEP' units for the Lymington branch. The passengers loved the 'new' trains, despite them just being refreshed old Mk1 slammers.

I genuinely believe that if you did a deep clean and upholstery refresh of the Northern Sprinters and put an impressive livery on the outside, many passengers would think they've been given new trains.

Don't even have to be new, c2c get consistently good passenger survey scores for internal quality with pretty poor 3+2 seats (not that i'm 100% believer in such things, but it fits here!) and the 357s are no longer fresh out of the box. Its amazing what difference a proper cleaning regime will make - just compare the internal state of a 357 leaving Fenchurch St on say the 0815 Southend with 360s on the 0820 Ipswich...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BUT why are they allowed to claim credit for improvements not down to them?

The WCML upgrade (trains and infrastructure) was in the end down down to key people in OPRAF/SRA, Railtrack/Network Rail and Virgin/Alstom.
The leaders were Richard Bowker (at Virgin and then SRA), John Armitt (NR) and Chris Green (Virgin).
Without Virgin as the customer waving a contract and sticking with the operation, it would all have gone down the pan with Railtrack in 2001.
Bechtel had a lot to do with turning it round as well, along with Stuart Baker of the SRA/DfT.

Who else, exactly, do you think should claim credit for the WCRM?
The people who chose Ansaldo for Manchester South SCC?
The Radio Block 140mph signalling fiasco?
The several efforts at getting the Stoke on Trent layout right?
Ledburn crossovers? Axle counters?
We'll never know what kind of fist another operator would have made of it, but I reckon SRB has a right to claim at least some credit for finishing the job.

 

[Dave1987]

The WCML upgrade (trains and infrastructure) was in the end down down to key people in OPRAF/SRA, Railtrack/Network Rail and Virgin/Alstom.
The leaders were Richard Bowker (at Virgin and then SRA), John Armitt (NR) and Chris Green (Virgin).
Without Virgin as the customer waving a contract and sticking with the operation, it would all have gone down the pan with Railtrack in 2001.
Bechtel had a lot to do with turning it round as well, along with Stuart Baker of the SRA/DfT.

Who else, exactly, do you think should claim credit for the WCRM?
The people who chose Ansaldo for Manchester South SCC?
The Radio Block 140mph signalling fiasco?
The several efforts at getting the Stoke on Trent layout right?
Ledburn crossovers? Axle counters?
We'll never know what kind of fist another operator would have made of it, but I reckon SRB has a right to claim at least some credit for finishing the job.

Yes I will give you that he does have the right to take some of the praise. But do you think he deserves the amount credit he is trying to claim? I'm sure it would have gone ahead with or without Virgin in charge of the franchise. The TOC I think deserves most praise is in fact chiltern!

 

[tbtc]

I genuinely believe that if you did a deep clean and upholstery refresh of the Northern Sprinters and put an impressive livery on the outside, many passengers would think they've been given new trains.

144s are fairly nice to travel on as they've been refurbished more/ better than Northern's 142s.

 

[Dave1987]

I have added a poll at the beginning of the thread to see what people think

Cheers to everyone for all your input this has been a very good debate!

 

[calc7]

Where are all the other options?

 

[Yew]

Actually, you don't even have to provide new trains, as SWT discovered when they refurbished some old 423 '4VEP' units for the Lymington branch. The passengers loved the 'new' trains, despite them just being refreshed old Mk1 slammers.

I genuinely believe that if you did a deep clean and upholstery refresh of the Northern Sprinters and put an impressive livery on the outside, many passengers would think they've been given new trains.

Dont forget EMT's 158's, I thought they where only a few years old when I first used one, not 20. Same with the refurbishment on the 156's they look a lot younger.

 

[Geezertronic]

Seems like a poll that the Government would do. Comparing VT with Chiltern is irrelevant as their circumstances are completely different against a different set of agreements etc... bit pointless really

 

[Westboy]

Also "praise" is an interesting term.

They are profit making companies who recieve by various means vast sums of money to provide a service. Well done them. I dont find the need to "praise" Tesco for having my favorite brand of chocolate on sale or limiting the increase in the cost of milk to x%.

I don't intend that as a negative post BTW, its the way it should be. I jut find the notion of a company "deserving" praise for doing what it is paid to distinctly odd.

 

[Tibbs]

It does make me laugh that a company gets criticised for caring about its public image.

Rather than bringing Virgin down to the crap standards of the other TOCs, the reverse should be so?

 

[3141]

Also "praise" is an interesting term.

I dont find the need to "praise" Tesco for having my favorite brand of chocolate on sale or limiting the increase in the cost of milk to x%.
.

Agree completely. But if Tesco did a survey of customers, especially if it was via the internet, they'd be asking questions like "Please rate your customer experience here today: Excellent, Good, Neither good nor bad..."etc.; and "Tell us how we met your expectations: Exceeded my expectations, Met my expectations, neither met nor exceeded them..." If you go to buy a pint of milk, or even quite a lot of things, you don't think "What sort of experience am I having here today?" or about your "expectations" beyond the intention "I am going to buy some milk/a chicken/a bag of potatoes".

The question at the head of this thread is far too vague. If it asked "Which company deserves more praise for introducing and paying for new infrastructure along its route?" it might begin to get realistic answers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dont forget EMT's 158's, I thought they where only a few years old when I first used one, not 20. Same with the refurbishment on the 156's they look a lot younger.

When Which? did a survey about TOCs last year, they mentioned that several people who had answered favourably about EMT had referred to their "new" trains. Similar comments were made about Merseyrail. The people at Which obviously accepted these comments at face value and had no idea that they were inaccurate.

 

[Dave1987]

Where are all the other options?

Sorry created the poll very quickly but I think seeing as Virgin and Chiltern are competing against each other for passengers from Birmingham to London it is an appropriate poll.

I feel I have expressed myself as a complete Virgin hater, I'm not, I appreciate that they have made many improvements to the WCML with good customer service and positive brand image. What I don't like is as I have said the way SRB tries to make out that all the improvements only happened because Virgin have been operating the franchise. And I also don't like the way other TOC's can't be treated the same way as Virgin when it comes to delays out of their control. If Virgin do win the next WCML franchise and other ones as well off their own merit then fair play. Chiltern have invested heavily into their line and I truly hope they get the recognition they deserve for what they have invested.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also "praise" is an interesting term.

They are profit making companies who recieve by various means vast sums of money to provide a service. Well done them. I dont find the need to "praise" Tesco for having my favorite brand of chocolate on sale or limiting the increase in the cost of milk to x%.

I don't intend that as a negative post BTW, its the way it should be. I jut find the notion of a company "deserving" praise for doing what it is paid to distinctly odd.

Sorry that you don't like my use of the word praise

 

[tbtc]

Sorry created the poll very quickly but I think seeing as Virgin and Chiltern are competing against each other for passengers from Birmingham to London it is an appropriate poll

Sorry, I have to disagree.

Chiltern are a local/ commuter/ middle-distance (insert phrase here) operator who are offering bargain tickets on the one route where they compete with Virgin (but are skipping stations like High Wycombe to enable this).

Virgin are an Intercity TOC - a better comparison would be with East Coast/ NXEC/ GNER (depending on when the poll was run).

 

[Temple Meads]

Chiltern have done a fantastic job, that can't argued with, and they deserve more praise because of that, however my personal preference is for Virgin, as I find Chiltern a bit staid to be honest, there isn't any excitement or romance there, I do appreciate that such things don't bother most commuters/regular passengers, but it does bother me.

 

[island]

There fares are ridiculous. Compare a similar journey on East Coast:-
York to Kings Cross - £48, 08:00
And even Newcastle to Kings Cross - £83, 07:55

They're similar times
I used the Trainline for all these prices

My figures came from TheTrainLine, I couldn't find any of these discounted EC fares, only Anytime and Offpeak fares (which were the prices I quoted). However, you're quite right, when I give the date you suggested, it shows some discounted fares. I wonder why it didn't before...

East Coast's cheapest fares are only available directly from East Coast.

East Coast's most expensive fares are available from thetrainline.

Actually you can. Working on the mileage from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston that is 198 miles.

198 miles at 0.25ppm is £49.50
Car Parking in London is say £30 (I have to pay £22 but that is Docklands)
Congestion Charge is £8

Total: £87.50 to go by car.

Coach prices range from £9.00 to £23.00 depending on when you travel (based on NatEx - Manchester Coach Station to London Victoria Coach Station)
.

25ppm figure plucked out of thin air, though.

 

[AndyLandy]

144s are fairly nice to travel on as they've been refurbished more/ better than Northern's 142s.

I don't think I've even seen a 144. 142s and 143s, but never a 144.

Also, Northern's 142s are in better nick than their 150s!

 

[3141]

Chiltern have done a fantastic job, that can't argued with, and they deserve more praise because of that, however my personal preference is for Virgin, as I find Chiltern a bit staid to be honest, there isn't any excitement or romance there, I do appreciate that such things don't bother most commuters/regular passengers, but it does bother me.

"Excitement or romance." This has the potential for a huge thread! What do you mean by those terms? I feel there's quite a lot of excitement about getting Princes Risborough - Bicester - Aynho redoubled, extending to Aylesbury Parkway, up-grading the line so as to improve journey times substantially, and developing a new service to Oxford. Many people also seem to feel excited about the re-introduction of loco-hauled stock with upgraded Mark 3s.

I agree these things may not be as striking as zooming along in a tilting train with amazing accelerative capacity and doing London - Manchester in little over two hours (when I first did it in 1958 it was over four hours), but what Chiltern have done really does stand out.

 

[Dave1987]

"Excitement or romance." This has the potential for a huge thread! What do you mean by those terms? I feel there's quite a lot of excitement about getting Princes Risborough - Bicester - Aynho redoubled, extending to Aylesbury Parkway, up-grading the line so as to improve journey times substantially, and developing a new service to Oxford. Many people also seem to feel excited about the re-introduction of loco-hauled stock with upgraded Mark 3s.

I agree these things may not be as striking as zooming along in a tilting train with amazing accelerative capacity and doing London - Manchester in little over two hours (when I first did it in 1958 it was over four hours), but what Chiltern have done really does stand out.

Totally agree the upgraded mk3's and 168's are very very comfortable and dare I say it the standard class is so much better than standard on a pendo

 

[island]

"Excitement or romance." This has the potential for a huge thread! What do you mean by those terms? I feel there's quite a lot of excitement about getting Princes Risborough - Bicester - Aynho redoubled, extending to Aylesbury Parkway, up-grading the line so as to improve journey times substantially, and developing a new service to Oxford.

In a Bubblecar I assume?

 

[GNER 91128]

I have to say from a user of mainly only ECML and EC services my coments are not probabaly valid.

However: As someone who's father was made redundant by Virgin trains I still applaud them for what they did to contribute to the WCML upgrade, even though it wasn't the 140mph running all the way through that had been hoped and the getting the Class 390s to replace what was inadequate stock. But what Chiltern have done is amazing also with paying for a brand new station and line upgrades (all be it on a quiteter line) is very commendable!!

Whether the 390s were a good replacement is another matter and I for one prefer being on a dvt+9+91 set anyday!

Why wasn't the 91 and mkIVs brought to the WCML? I'd really like to know! Again maybe a naieve question!

 

[Manchester77]

Why wasn't the 91 and mkIVs brought to the WCML? I'd really like to know! Again maybe a naieve question!

Initially you were going to have APT-S which is what IC225 originated from.
Then you were going to have IC250 bringing new trains (93s+mark Vs+mark V DVT) and infstructure improvments but because of budgetary constraints at the treasury the project was cancelled.
There was then a plan for 10 IC225s for ICWC for expresses but because the 225s were made by the same company manufacturing 365s and 465s at the time it was cancelled by the treasury due to the economic risk.

They were tested on some parts of the WCML though!

 

[Geezertronic]

25ppm figure plucked out of thin air, though.

Might be plucked out of the air but you'd still fill the tank for less than 0.25ppm unless you had a beast of a power plant underneath the hood. I'm lucky enough to get 0.35ppm, some of my colleagues get much less. The ppm figure is irrelevant if you like in the scheme of the discussion

 

[island]

And fuel is the only expense associated with a car? I think not...

 

[GNER 91128]

Initially you were going to have APT-S which is what IC225 originated from.
Then you were going to have IC250 bringing new trains (93s+mark Vs+mark V DVT) and infstructure improvments but because of budgetary constraints at the treasury the project was cancelled.
There was then a plan for 10 IC225s for ICWC for expresses but because the 225s were made by the same company manufacturing 365s and 465s at the time it was cancelled by the treasury due to the economic risk.

They were tested on some parts of the WCML though!

Ah thanks for that!

Another thing I'd wondered is why they've never been run with two 91s instead of a dvt, surely this would've given better performance? But anyway that's probably for a different thread!

 

[ainsworth74]

Another thing I'd wondered is why they've never been run with two 91s instead of a dvt, surely this would've given better performance? But anyway that's probably for a different thread!

There has been some discussion of that here.