Virgin Trains: Untouchable?

[MCR247]

Yeah I don't think the DfT are big fans of Virgin, and I'm talking before the WCML franchising fiasco)

 

[dk1]

Yeah I don't think the DfT are big fans of Virgin, and I'm talking before the WCML franchising fiasco)

Because Virgin know how to run a business properley

 

[MCR247]

And they tried the tactic of blackmailing the DfT or something lol

 

[AndyLandy]

I've wondered about this myself. I'm quite prepared to believe that what's gone before is more-or-less accurate. Virgin genuinely believed the process was broken and they sought to commence legal proceedings over the matter. The DfT put its hands up and said the process was flawed.

But, what does that mean if Virgin don't win the next time. Will they concede that the process was fair? They accepted the loss of XC fairly quietly.

In general, I've always been happy with Virgin's ICWC service and I'm happy to see them still running it. That said, it might be nice to see how another TOC handles the service and what changes they might make. Overall, I'm largely in the "better the devil you know" camp though.

 

[matt]

When Arriva aka Crosscountry arrived what was the first thing they did, they switched off the tilt! How long did that add to the run times?

Very little as not much as the CrossCountry routes had balizes for tilting.

 

[Dave1987]

Because Virgin know how to run a business properley

No Virgin have a very good PR machine and have a very powerful brand. The improvements to the WCML would have happened no matter who was the franchise holder. In fact there is an argument that had it been a different franchise holder the interior of the pendos may well have been better.

I hate the fact virgin are trying to take credit for all the upgrades on the WCML and of course the gullible british public believe them.

Yes the WCML franchise bidding system was flawed and did not take into account inflation etc but how can Branson claim that just because he his company hasn't been able to provide even more improvements that no one else possibly could!

 

[jon0844]

This is why I got so upset too, as Virgin has now got this image that means the general public (who, should after all get to choose via Twitter rather than some Government organisation!) probably think Virgin should take over the whole railway network.

Of course we know Virgin cherry picks and bides time if necessary, so if it made sense to hold off for a franchise period to allow essential upgrade work/electrification/new rolling stock procurement to take place, it surely would. It wants nice easy operations that it can paint with the Virgin gloss and strengthen its WHOLE brand - and that probably means keeping well away from operations that include commuter services.

Most people don't know that Virgin doesn't own a lot of the Virgin businesses, or how many of them operate. You or I could seek to set up a new business and ask Virgin to licence the name, for a fee. Want SRB to launch your brand and bring along his dancing girls and organise some killer viral ad campaign and word-of-mouth marketing? No problem.. just sign here and once the money has transferred, SRB will be along to endorse what is actually a company that is of no risk to him whatsoever. If it does do amazingly well, he might of course then buy you out.

 

[thelem]

It's the 'brand' effect at work, I think.
I seem to remember reading recently that when the cable networks of ntl, telewest and others were merged and relaunched as Virgin Media, customer satisfaction surveys not long after showed a marked improvement, even though all that had changed initially was the name on the customers bills ! :roll: The investment in providing fibre-optic broadband hadn't even begun at the time of the survey !!!

Actually it was reported at the time that one of the conditions of being allowed to use the Virgin brand was that they sort the customer service out, as ntl particularly had a bad reputation. That was partly caused by ntl attempting to merge all their legacy billing systems onto a single platform ("harmony") which wasn't going well. After the merger they replaced harmony with the old Telewest billing system and invested in more customer services staff. It was also the time when TV On Demand was taking off, and their service was by far the best around.

I don't remember any specific broadband upgrades following the merger. Fibre-optic is just a marketing term really - ntl and Telewest broadband was fibre-optic at launch, but artificially speed-limited because their central network wouldn't have been able to cope, and because the competition weren't able to provide anything faster. Every so often they will increase the speeds of their packages, but they were doing that before the merger too.

The point that's relevant to this thread is that while the brand will have had some impact on customer approval ratings, I would have thought the bigger impact was the terms that came with being allowed to use the brand, and there will be things that Virgin Trains have been told to do to protect the Virgin brand. Similarly, there are things that are nothing to do with Virgin being involved that they still get the credit for (in both cases - faster line speeds!)

 

[Manchester77]

Virgin trains is a rare example of Virgin Owning the majority of a company usually it's just a brand name as said not 51%

If you catch my drift...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Similarly, there are things that are nothing to do with Virgin being involved that they still get the credit for (in both cases - faster line speeds!)

But they contracted with Railtrack for 140mph (but didn't get it), and are still trying to get Network Rail to allow 135mph in the Trent Valley.
And as a TOC they are paying higher access charges for the upgraded WCML.
How can all that be "nothing to do with Virgin"?

 

[Trains06]

Virgin does a lot of good, a lot of bad, on the whole they're definitely a 'better' TOC in my opinion.

On the subject of PPM though, they can't be blamed for a lot of the low scores they receive, unlike LM they do not have many staff shortages, morale and attendance is high. They have the odd defective set from time to time but most of their bad punctuality is down to factors outside their control.

 

[Dave1987]

Virgin does a lot of good, a lot of bad, on the whole they're definitely a 'better' TOC in my opinion.

On the subject of PPM though, they can't be blamed for a lot of the low scores they receive, unlike LM they do not have many staff shortages, morale and attendance is high. They have the odd defective set from time to time but most of their bad punctuality is down to factors outside their control.

Yes but they don't get slated like other TOC's for delays out of their control. On GA passengers get quite abusive towards the company for signal failures that are not their fault. Why don't Virgin get the same treatment? Cos passengers have been brainwashed by the Virgin brand?

 

[Trains06]

Yes but they don't get slated like other TOC's for delays out of their control. On GA passengers get quite abusive towards the company for signal failures that are not their fault. Why don't Virgin get the same treatment? Cos passengers have been brainwashed by the Virgin brand?

There's some degree of truth to that, Virgin don't get as tarnished as they could do by delays out of their control - they do get some though, have seen a group of businessmen shouting the VT office down when there was a person hit by a train down south.

 

[Dave1987]

There's some degree of truth to that, Virgin don't get as tarnished as they could do by delays out of their control - they do get some though, have seen a group of businessmen shouting the VT office down when there was a person hit by a train down south.

They also want to take credit for improvements that were not down to them and would have happened even if someone else got the franchise.

 

[AndyLandy]

A huge amount of it really is just down to PR. I'm sure that even Northern could become popular if they cleaned the trains and marketed themselves well.

 

[Roverman]

A huge amount of it really is just down to PR. I'm sure that even Northern could become popular if they cleaned the trains and marketed themselves well.

AndyLandy for Marketing Manager, Northern trains!!

 

[jon0844]

A huge amount of it really is just down to PR. I'm sure that even Northern could become popular if they cleaned the trains and marketed themselves well.

I do think a lot of businesses don't realise the power/benefits of PR, just as the general public can't see what's fact and slick PR (and therefore quite likely rather misleading).

 

[ainsworth74]

I do think a lot of businesses don't realise the power/benefits of PR, just as the general public can't see what's fact and slick PR (and therefore quite likely rather misleading).

And in the case of the railway it's rather strange that they don't seeing as historically the railway has been very good at PR. The pre-nationalisation companies had very good PR (think of all those GWR adverts for the West Country or LMS and LNERs mid-30s rivalry), BR was no slouch itself and had more than a few successes.

Yet the modern railway (apart from VT) is terrible on the whole at doing PR.

 

[Manchester77]

Indeed intact didn't VT do a GWR/SR style poster for fast trains to London?

 

[Dave1987]

I think that is the issue here though. Virgin do seem to be untouchable because of their strong PR and strong brand. People see Sir Richard Branson as the "saviour" of the railways when actually he is just a very shrewd businessman and has an excellent PR team around him.

When it was announced that he had lost the WCML didnt he immediately announce that Virgin Atlantic were going to offer short haul flights from London to Edinburgh?

I feel in future all franchising bids will be biased in favour of Virgin due to the strong brand and PR that Virgin have and that can only be bad for the railways!

 

[Paule23]

I feel in future all franchising bids will be biased in favour of Virgin due to the strong brand and PR that Virgin have and that can only be bad for the railways!

Why will franchising bids be biased in favour if Virgin? Just because they pointed out a legitimate problem with the franchise calculations should not mean they get preferential treatment, is it not more likely they have upset people and will be biased against in future bids?

Also, why would bias in favour if Virgin be bad for the railways? I know they are not everyone's cup of tea but can anyone be certain First, Deutshe, NatEx or anyone else would definitely be better?

 

[Dave1987]

Why will franchising bids be biased in favour if Virgin? Just because they pointed out a legitimate problem with the franchise calculations should not mean they get preferential treatment, is it not more likely they have upset people and will be biased against in future bids?

Also, why would bias in favour if Virgin be bad for the railways? I know they are not everyone's cup of tea but can anyone be certain First, Deutshe, NatEx or anyone else would definitely be better?

Ow dear another one brainwashed by the Virgin brand lol

Virgin have exactly the same problems as other TOC's with signal failures, train failures etc they just have such good PR that no one dare speak a word against them. All the improvements to the line would have happened with or without Virgin.

 

[AndyLandy]

Ow dear another one brainwashed by the Virgin brand lol

Virgin have exactly the same problems as other TOC's with signal failures, train failures etc they just have such good PR that no one dare speak a word against them. All the improvements to the line would have happened with or without Virgin.

In that case, it's utterly irrelevant who runs the franchises, if all the improvements would have happened anyway. So, why not let Virgin run the whole network, since everyone likes their PR?

 

[Westboy]

Ow dear another one brainwashed by the Virgin brand lol

Virgin have exactly the same problems as other TOC's with signal failures, train failures etc they just have such good PR that no one dare speak a word against them. All the improvements to the line would have happened with or without Virgin.

None of which is relevant to the baseless claim you made that the dft will be biased towards them. I think they are well aware of who funds upgrades.

All the number crunchers care about is the figures in the bid, not the PR. In case you have forgotten, they did lose the ICWC before the cock up was revelaed.

 

[jon0844]

In that case, it's utterly irrelevant who runs the franchises, if all the improvements would have happened anyway. So, why not let Virgin run the whole network, since everyone likes their PR?

You do have a point. First, Serco etc should simply license the Virgin brand from SRB and then paint (or vinyl) a protective barrier from negative PR onto their ageing rolling stock!

 

[AndyLandy]

You do have a point. First, Serco etc should simply license the Virgin brand from SRB and then paint (or vinyl) a protective barrier from negative PR onto their ageing rolling stock!

Everyone knows that shiny silver reflects all criticism!

 

[pinguini]

Not too long ago I was stranded at Northampton station from around midnight to 2am because some gypsies were stealing cable further on up the line. The Virgin TM was so wonderful, making us free cups of tea, bringing bottles of water, cookies etc. He had to deal with people stealing alcohol from the buffet carriage because they were so fed up but he was so good about it. I travel regularly on Virgin trains and have always had a good service for very good fares.

 

[Dave1987]

Not too long ago I was stranded at Northampton station from around midnight to 2am because some gypsies were stealing cable further on up the line. The Virgin TM was so wonderful, making us free cups of tea, bringing bottles of water, cookies etc. He had to deal with people stealing alcohol from the buffet carriage because they were so fed up but he was so good about it. I travel regularly on Virgin trains and have always had a good service for very good fares.

Was he/she doing that for the whole train or just first class passengers??

 

[Manchester77]

...for very good fares.

As you joking?! I'm going to London on the 17/01/12 on the 7.55 train and I've paid £108 for the luxury to be an a train where Ill be trapped for two hours in a cramped train with the smell of the lavatory making me want to puke. In the words of Penny from Miranda SUCH FUN!
There fares are ridiculous. Compare a similar journey on East Coast:-
York to Kings Cross - £48, 08:00
And even Newcastle to Kings Cross - £83, 07:55

They're similar times
I used the Trainline for all these prices

 

[pinguini]

Was he/she doing that for the whole train or just first class passengers??

All passengers. I have never travelled first class