MCR247
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As much as you think they do, they don't really get away with it. But hey, never let facts get in the way of a good raht
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Virgin Trains: Untouchable?
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
We'll know fairly soon if there are going to be any major changes in franchising after the WC debacle, when Richard Brown reports to the DfT.
It's probably true that until a new process is reliably in place it will be hard to dislodge any incumbent TOC (eg First from GW, as well as VT from WC).
They will probably all get extensions in the short term.
Also the order of franchising may change - WC might slip down the queue to allow a "simpler" competition to prove the new rules - GA perhaps.
And the West Coast operator has probably had the lowest "PPM" of the big lines for about the last 100 years, such is the nature of the route and its management.
(opens large can of worms...)
MCR247
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Oh you mean when it comes to the general public. Thats only because they don't know what they're on about
I don't fully agree with you. Abellio were obviously the cheapest bid, which was because (in part) they decided they could manage without a dozen-ish units (class 317/7).
Potentially other bidders would have kept these units and hence had a more robust timetable.
warriorwarlord
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Pre-pendo days Virgin made the mistake of being quick to apply their branding to ex-BR stock which was a mistake for them. Back in those days, they seemed to have an abnormally unreliable fleet of HST's with problems like lack of working air con and they would blame the age of the trains.
I would concede that Virgin had a point when it came to the franchising system but after the manner in which they acted during that debacle, I can't say I favour them at all. It wasn't necessarily that their PR machine spun lies, it was more the vague nature of what they said as well as blatant half truths that didn't really sum up what happened on the WCML. In some cases, their press releases about their 15 years on the WCML were close to even implying that they single handedly were responsible for upgrading the line and rolling stock, because they just left out a few details here and there. But the public just took all that and took to carrying on tales in their minds, then coming out with things on the internet that were a bit embarrassing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuNn0UNuS_s
Heres a flashback to ye olden times of Virgin Trains
I would concede that Virgin had a point when it came to the franchising system but after the manner in which they acted during that debacle, I can't say I favour them at all. It wasn't necessarily that their PR machine spun lies, it was more the vague nature of what they said as well as blatant half truths that didn't really sum up what happened on the WCML. In some cases, their press releases about their 15 years on the WCML were close to even implying that they single handedly were responsible for upgrading the line and rolling stock, because they just left out a few details here and there. But the public just took all that and took to carrying on tales in their minds, then coming out with things on the internet that were a bit embarrassing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuNn0UNuS_s
Heres a flashback to ye olden times of Virgin Trains
Pre-pendo days Virgin made the mistake of being quick to apply their branding to ex-BR stock which was a mistake for them. Back in those days, they seemed to have an abnormally unreliable fleet of HST's with problems like lack of working air con and they would blame the age of the trains.
I would concede that Virgin had a point when it came to the franchising system but after the manner in which they acted during that debacle, I can't say I favour them at all. It wasn't necessarily that their PR machine spun lies, it was more the vague nature of what they said as well as blatant half truths that didn't really sum up what happened on the WCML. In some cases, their press releases about their 15 years on the WCML were close to even implying that they single handedly were responsible for upgrading the line and rolling stock, because they just left out a few details here and there. But the public just took all that and took to carrying on tales in their minds, then coming out with things on the internet that were a bit embarrassing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuNn0UNuS_s
Heres a flashback to ye olden times of Virgin Trains
I think you are totally correct. Virgin have tried to claim total credit for the line upgrades and the new rolling stock which isnt true at all.
One thing I have noticed on our line is that even when passengers are provided with wifi (for which some people dont seem to be able to live without :roll
they then complain that they cant live stream the BBC Iplayer off of it!!I think the next gemeration of new trains should have no windows AT ALL and then see people complain that they cant see out!
Oh you mean when it comes to the general public. Thats only because they don't know what they're on about
What a charming attitude :roll:
This isn't an rail industry intranet, you know, we can see what you're saying about us!
Well what do you expect. The general public supports one TOC to the point of creating an Epetition to save it, yet criticises another TOC who have much the same problems. The Great British Public haven't got a clue at times!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I think the external branding is superb and taps into the strong image and brand virgin have built up over he years, particularly with their airline brand. They are very keen to tie the plane & train brands together in the minds of the public. However i think the interior decor doesn't show the same attention.
It always seems drab and dark. To me they have used the wrong shade of colours. There is a lack of natural light because of the vehicle design so surely you would have gone for a lighter, uplifting colour scheme coupled with a clever lighting system to try and make it feel light and airey. I appreciate "house colours"" have to be used but i would have gone for a lighter shade!
They are also VERY good at revisionist history! They know the public dont understand or really care how the railway works so they use their brand loyalty and awareness to claim the credit for everything and the blame for nothing
Those Virgin track workers did a brilliant job on the WCML upgrade and their train leasing arm are worked wonders to spend all that money on new trains. It is a good job they own them else the line would be in a right mess
It's more about favourites and perception.
People like Branson. So they'll defend him no matter what. They probably don't know the head people at other TOCs and nor do they have the slick PR machine - so they're the evil fat cats that milk a private railway.
Same with politicians, celebrities and sports people. If we like them, we'll defend them. If not, we'll slate them - even for doing the exact same things.
It would be fine for Branson to travel first class - he's earned the right.. Or Lord Sugar to use his private jet.. But the Chancellor in first class? How dare he refuse to sit with the plebs because he said he was too good for us (as was commented at the time, which was all a lie of course).
Most people, of which we all are - industry or not - have double standards.
People like Branson. So they'll defend him no matter what. They probably don't know the head people at other TOCs and nor do they have the slick PR machine - so they're the evil fat cats that milk a private railway.
Same with politicians, celebrities and sports people. If we like them, we'll defend them. If not, we'll slate them - even for doing the exact same things.
It would be fine for Branson to travel first class - he's earned the right.. Or Lord Sugar to use his private jet.. But the Chancellor in first class? How dare he refuse to sit with the plebs because he said he was too good for us (as was commented at the time, which was all a lie of course).
Most people, of which we all are - industry or not - have double standards.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
No you miss the point!
The Chancellor is a Tory scum bag upper class Baron in waiting who earned his money through daddy and his trust funds, and no doubt oppressed the common man along the way, not like those decent hard working chaps Sir Richard and Sir Alan who earned their money through hard graft and are decent all round good eggs
I totally agree with you there. It's interesting how the "Pleb" line has been lauded around so much even though it seems to be entirely false!
Branson is an incredibly clever individual and knows the power of the brand. And like people say seeing the powerful Virgin logo on the side of a "shiny" new train (be it a horrible design or not) and people are put into a mindset that the TOC is brilliant and will not be persuaded otherwise even if they are late all the time!
Compare that to other lines like GA without the powerful brand and the older (yet still perfectly good) trains and people are automatically put into a feeling that the TOC is awful and even the slightest delay of a couple of minutes is the worst thing in the world.
Like I said its the Great British Public for you!
The only problem is is that shiny new trains cost an awful lot of money, I believe the pendo's are about £1m per coach! are people prepare to pay for shiny new trains constantly or would they prefer the cheaper option of upgrading the current stock when feasible, I fear the shiny new trains on the WCML is at the detrement of older stock as they are now see as old and unfit for purpose even though they are still perfectly up to the job!
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I have to remind myself that the next time I got a shoddy answer from a disinterested member of rail staff, they're not an exception. Based on this thread and "The stupidest question..." thread, it's the rule
That thread was created for a bit of a laugh for everyone and seems quite popular! Every workplace has people who ask silly questions when the answer is either obvious or right smack bang infront of them! I have asked silly questions of staff in various places before and felt like a complete idiot for asking when I realised the answer was right infront of me and fully expected the person I asked to have a bit of a laugh at my expense.
I remember when Branson submitted his bid to run ECML - He offered a brand new high speed line from south of Peterborough to north of Doncaster, improvements to York - Darlington and in the Morpeth area to introduce high speed rail to the East Coast. A very ambitious project, which might have been pie in the sky pipe dreams, or which might have generated improvements worth billions at little cost to the taxpayer - time would have proved which scenario was right.
A direct comparison however could be drawn with Chiltern Railways which having the advantage of a long franchise has invested lots in improving it's service offering with improved track speeds, trains, and new stations and lines. This is what franchising should be for - service improvement in the long run, not for companies to milk what they can from the system over 8 or 9 years.
I am not a fan of Pendolino trains, but the service needed to improve on the WCML from Class 86/87/90 hauled trains with a mix of mark 2 and mark 3 stock, and it has.
I don't think that Virgin is by any means unstoppable, but the report on the WCML franchising fiasco has vindicated Branson's position that the procedure was flawed. The DfT needs to decide what it wants from franchises, and pehaps needs to look at what people like Branson can bring to the table in the long term, and make the most of what they are offering.
People forget Branson had the balls to stand up publicly and question the process of Franchising. He had to be 250% certain that his figures were right and stood up to scrutiny, how many people on here can they say they totally understand the intricacies of the process? I studied Maths and Stats at College and I got flummoxed trying to follow the figures and information quoted in Modern Railway!
This suggests to me he knows his business very well indeed.
I don't think this gives him carte blanche to win franchises in the future or keep ICWC forever just that he knows his numbers and expects a fair trial.
This suggests to me he knows his business very well indeed.
I don't think this gives him carte blanche to win franchises in the future or keep ICWC forever just that he knows his numbers and expects a fair trial.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
No, the suggestion is that he employs people who understand the process inside out along with some VERY, VERY clever lawyers & forensic accountants! I expect he, personally, knows little more than he actually NEEDS to know about the franchise process or even railway operations.
And why shouldn't he! Surely that is the way to run a business. Spot the people with the expert knowledge and employ them for their expertise, pay for the best legal and financial advice you can afford and allow those people to run the business on a day to day basis while Sir Richard acts as a public face for the corporation.
Seems sensible to me!
I'm no fan of their trains, i think the Voyagers are terrible Intercity trains and the Pendos are far from as good as they should've been. But as a company, they haven't let me down much. Usually on time, but informative if things go wrong. I was excited about First getting WCML as i would've liked to have seen the internal changes they were going to make to the pendos, therefore here is hoping Virgin see sense and realise how poor they currently are for Standard Class passengers. The Swiss-Itailan Pendolino Due is a good example of what a Pendo should be like inside.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaeschol/5574402842/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaeschol/5574402842/in/photostream
Is there sufficient vertical clearance to do that on the WCML?
In my experience the biggest problem with Virgin is that when things become too difficult for them (e.g. flooding or engineering) they just pack in running trains! For a recent example consider last Saturday where they pretty well abandoned Crewe-Chester for most of the day.
Maybe that was just an ambition rather than a direct wish?
I can only assume you did not use Cross Country after Virgin took over. A seat would have been a wonderful thing after full length trains were replaced by 4 carriage, sewage smelling, abominations. Many longstanding through journey opportunities were also removed from the railway map.
The service has never fully recovered, although at least Arriva have seemingly cured the sewage problem and do run some suitable length trains.
Manchester77
Established Member
At least Blackpool will be re-joining the intercity map some time soon
VT have a good public perception because, as aid previously, they have a a PR machine which does wonders to their image. Branson isn't just CEO of Virgin, he's a mast of twisting the publics view. Yes VT's ICWC franchise has seen many improvements but they do take a lot of credit. Network Rail / Railtrack had a lot to do with the WCML upgrade but VT likes to take a lot more credit than they actually do. I'm not critising them but they are not the best TOC out there...
VT have a good public perception because, as aid previously, they have a a PR machine which does wonders to their image. Branson isn't just CEO of Virgin, he's a mast of twisting the publics view. Yes VT's ICWC franchise has seen many improvements but they do take a lot of credit. Network Rail / Railtrack had a lot to do with the WCML upgrade but VT likes to take a lot more credit than they actually do. I'm not critising them but they are not the best TOC out there...
bengolding
Member
My experience after 2 yrs of daily First Class commuting on VT and FGW was excellent. VT have by far the largest on board staff presence of any TOC. The FC service isn't as good as it once was but I found staff morale was excellent. I'm good friends now with several London based crew.
Lewisham2221
Established Member
And what's to say that was entirely their decision?
Well, Operation Princess made an attempt to have the best of both worlds, all the journey opportunities and the clockface timetable, with new stock as well. On reflection, it was far too ambitious, and probably never going to work in the first place. However, its ultimate collapse can't be blamed entirely on Virgin, the SRA ultimately pulled the plug on it, and on any ideas Virgin had of lengthening the Voyagers or bringing back some HSTs - the so-called 'Challengers'. Virgin's ideas might well have worked had they ordered 6-car Voyagers from the start, assuming that the longest possible train is 12-car, or if they had hung onto their HST fleet while replacing the 47s and still ordered the same number of Voyagers.
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So do I, I ran with that one for quite some time (it ammounts to several A4 notebooks of diagrams). It's just the sort of future I hope to see for the ECML one day, depending on what happens with HS2.
Loving the way Virgin is panned for using HSTs then panned for pulling them (despite this being an SRA instruction and not Virgin's).
Virgin brought new trains to the railways, Pendolinos, Voyagers and Super-Voyagers. When Arriva aka Crosscountry arrived what was the first thing they did, they switched off the tilt! How long did that add to the run times? They also added HSTs back to the route! Where are the threads panning these decisions?!
They also only managed to run the same timetable as Virgin for 7 days before routes were dropped.
They also said they were going to build a new station at Kenilworth, in 5 years its still at the 'talking about it' phase and I am not holding my breath over the proposed Parkway station in Worcester!
As for First I am glad they didn't get the ICWC franchise, they already have 7 other TOCs none of which seem to doing all that well on PPM ratings. Is there not a Monopoly Commission banning companies taking over the market?
I have no problem with criticising Virgin but lets be fair, open and honest. None of the TOCs are anywhere near where they should be for the money we pay them. If only this government had the balls to impose fare freezes/cuts as a punishment for poor service!
Virgin brought new trains to the railways, Pendolinos, Voyagers and Super-Voyagers. When Arriva aka Crosscountry arrived what was the first thing they did, they switched off the tilt! How long did that add to the run times? They also added HSTs back to the route! Where are the threads panning these decisions?!
They also only managed to run the same timetable as Virgin for 7 days before routes were dropped.
They also said they were going to build a new station at Kenilworth, in 5 years its still at the 'talking about it' phase and I am not holding my breath over the proposed Parkway station in Worcester!
As for First I am glad they didn't get the ICWC franchise, they already have 7 other TOCs none of which seem to doing all that well on PPM ratings. Is there not a Monopoly Commission banning companies taking over the market?
I have no problem with criticising Virgin but lets be fair, open and honest. None of the TOCs are anywhere near where they should be for the money we pay them. If only this government had the balls to impose fare freezes/cuts as a punishment for poor service!
Er, isn't that what I said?
It actually added no time at all, since AIUI, all times were planned in case a Voyager ran VICE Super Voyager. Looks like ordering two classes was a bit of a mistake.
Or if they had ultimate responsibility for the poor service (as they would if they were owner-operators like the Big 4) they would stand or fall by their railways and be able to adapt to changing traffic patterns much more effectively. The CBI knew better, of course. :roll:
dk1
Veteran Member
Would never say untouchable but pretty damn close. DfT tried to control but where put in their place. VT got my vote every time.
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