Virgin Trains Proposed services

[northwichcat]

Does anyone know how Virgin proposes to make Voyagers available for this service?

Wasn't it set to be 11 car Pendolinos directly replacing some 9 car Pendolinos and then those 9 car Pendolinos going on to the busiest Birmingham-Scotland services to free up Voyagers for new services?

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Or it could combine with the new salop services at Stafford???

How would that work? Are the Shrewsbury services really going to run via Stafford?

To answer the original question, might Virgin consider using a Pendolino for the Blackpool services, with a drag for the last bit beyond Preston?

 

[TDK]

It seems to me that VT have everything sewn up, this route was refused I think for 2 seperate bids and now VT want to run it, it seems that the ORR will give it the go ahead! Although the moderation of competition had been relaxed it still seems that VT have this in place.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems to me that VT have everything sewn up, this route was refused I think for 2 seperate bids and now VT want to run it, it seems that the ORR will give it the go ahead! Although the moderation of competition had been relaxed it still seems that VT have this in place.

The DfT asked Virgin to introduce the Shrewsbury/Blackpool services, and will be paying for it under the cost-plus interim deal.
VT's problems are simply paths and finding stock from the current fleet.
They will be token services really as there is not enough stock for anything else.

If a full commercial franchise had been let, VT (and First for that matter) would have to fund the costs themselves.
They also intended to order new stock.

A full (eg 2-hourly) service will have to wait the new full franchise and new stock.

It will be interesting to see how ORR handle the applications.
Alliance has an application to run to Blackpool (but no stock), but nobody else wants to run to Shrewsbury.

 

[The Planner]

How would that work? Are the Shrewsbury services really going to run via Stafford?

Yes they are.

 

[swt_passenger]

It seems to me that VT have everything sewn up, this route was refused I think for 2 seperate bids and now VT want to run it, it seems that the ORR will give it the go ahead! Although the moderation of competition had been relaxed it still seems that VT have this in place.

The ORR's 'not primarily abstractive' test is still there to protect TOCs. So a Virgin proposal is looked at more as them spreading their overall farebox revenue differently, rather than someone else taking part of it.

Slightly different scenario to the now ended 'M of C', which barred any competition with the WCML operator full stop (on listed protected routes).

 

[northwichcat]

Alliance has an application to run to Blackpool (but no stock), but nobody else wants to run to Shrewsbury.

They propose they can get hold of 140mph Polaris trains within 2 years of a track access application being approved.

 

[WatcherZero]

Problem being that CSRE would need several months demonstrated working on a European railway before they would be granted permission to use the network. Process wouldnt be that dissimilar to that Parry had to go through as a new builder to prove their safety case.

 

[Beveridges]

Not a chance of getting paths on the southern WCML with them. Where has that info come from?

How does freight get paths then?

 

[northwichcat]

How does freight get paths then?

The number of slow paths are limited and are mainly used for freight and stoppers. If Virgin want more slow paths they'll be less fast paths and also less paths in total, so the extra path available for the new service may just disappear!

 

[The Planner]

They propose they can get hold of 140mph Polaris trains within 2 years of a track access application being approved.

Is this a Sunday Sport headline?

 

[northwichcat]

Is this a Sunday Sport headline?

No what they put in the original track access application. TPE responded saying it was unrealistic based on Siemens production times.

What makes it interesting now is Alliance have merged with Grand Central and by their own omission Leeds-Huddersfield-Stockport-London services won't be possible to fit in around the enhanced North TPE timetable, so that reduce the size of any rolling stock order.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No what they put in the original track access application. TPE responded saying it was unrealistic based on Siemens production times.

What makes it interesting now is Alliance have merged with Grand Central and by their own omission Leeds-Huddersfield-Stockport-London services won't be possible to fit in around the enhanced North TPE timetable, so that reduce the size of any rolling stock order.

I'm sure Virgin will get approval for the new services (assuming there are paths) for the duration of their interim franchise.
Beyond that, it will all be up for grabs.
It's called kicking the can down the road...

I can't see a DB/Arriva company sending out to China for untried tilting trains.
Alstom must have the only suitable WCML design ready to go.
Even that won't do the diesel bits.

 

[Whistler40145]

In response to the use of a Pendolino on the Blackpool services, it would require top n tail 57s & are the platforms long enough to accommodate either 9 or 11 carriages?

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[northwichcat]

I can't see a DB/Arriva company sending out to China for untried tilting trains.
Alstom must have the only suitable WCML design ready to go.
Even that won't do the diesel bits.

Bombardier's class 221 DEMUs can do the diesel bits and tilt and they believe they can be made to work on OHEs.

 

[mikestone1952]

The obvious move is to replace the double Voyager off the 06.19 Birmingham-Edinburgh etc with a Pendolino, as two 390s currently don't enter passenger traffic until tea-time and the mid-afternoon up trains get into Euston in time to cover them - it might require the 19.10 Euston-Holyhead to lose its second set, but presumably that is not a franchise commitment.
;
An alternative would be to use WB64 for an evening peak West Midlands working.

 

[Welshman]

The obvious move is to replace the double Voyager off the 06.19 Birmingham-Edinburgh etc with a Pendolino, as two 390s currently don't enter passenger traffic until tea-time and the mid-afternoon up trains get into Euston in time to cover them - it might require the 19.10 Euston-Holyhead to lose its second set, but presumably that is not a franchise commitment.

The 2nd [rear] set on the 1910 Euston-Holyhead is detatched at Chester. Whether or not it is a franchise committment, its removal would make the remaining set to Holyhead very cosy indeed as far as Chester, as that is the first train available to off-peak ticketholders after the evening peak.

 

[David Goddard]

The return of a Blackpool-Euston has to be good news for the town, to benefit both its residents and its visitors.
What I believe the service will however need is some sensible calling points en-route to enable decent connections to be made.
I would suggest that these are at Stafford, Tamworth and Nuneaton, for connections to the West Midlands, East Midlands & South Coast, and East Anglia respectively.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would the pricing structure of the Virgin Trains London to Blackpool service be set at a level that will be attractive to the holidaymaker market for families coming up to the North West ?

 

[johnnychips]

Would the pricing structure of the Virgin Trains London to Blackpool service be set at a level that will be attractive to the holidaymaker market for families coming up to the North West ?

If I lived in the south of England and had a family, I'd be jumping on a flight to Spain. Blackpool is a possible destination for families from the north of England and Scotland, though so much diminished, as their opportunities to go somewhere warm have also been greatly increased by low cost airlines; but now it's mainly a pisede-up [some bot has rejected the correct spelling] weekend, or day trips -especially to see the illuminations.

And that's said with regret as it was Blackpool, Llandudno or Minehead when I was a kid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and don't get me wrong, the NW of England has fantastic attractions but you'd be getting off the train at Chester, Liverpool, Wigan, Manchester, Oxenholme/Windermere, Penrith to see them, not Blackpool.

 

[calc7]

The return of a Blackpool-Euston has to be good news for the town, to benefit both its residents and its visitors.
What I believe the service will however need is some sensible calling points en-route to enable decent connections to be made.
I would suggest that these are at Stafford, Tamworth and Nuneaton, for connections to the West Midlands, East Midlands & South Coast, and East Anglia respectively.

Not going to happen. Virgin's model is London-centric and they will not want to compromise fast end-to-end journey times.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not going to happen. Virgin's model is London-centric and they will not want to compromise fast end-to-end journey times.

So this is just a really a cynical ploy to bring even more visitors to London? Again I ask..at what prices ?

 

[Clip]

So this is just a really a cynical ploy to bring even more visitors to London? Again I ask..at what prices ?

Possibly the same price as it is now, trhough I guess vt will have some specials knocking around at launch

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The return of a Blackpool-Euston has to be good news for the town, to benefit both its residents and its visitors.
What I believe the service will however need is some sensible calling points en-route to enable decent connections to be made.
I would suggest that these are at Stafford, Tamworth and Nuneaton, for connections to the West Midlands, East Midlands & South Coast, and East Anglia respectively.

The declared intention in the RUS is to have a 10th hourly path out of Euston to the north west, with calls at TV stations and Crewe.
This would allow the Glasgows to run non-stop Euston-Preston.
The destination was a choice of Lancaster, Blackpool or Liverpool (possibly alternating).
To work, this needed more rolling stock, Blackpool electrification, and the Stafford upgrade (and a timetable recast).

How much of this Virgin can implement in December with limited rolling stock is questionable.
You can expect LM to object if there are calls in the Trent Valley.
I'd expect an interim service with few stops.
There might be some convoluted link between the Shrewsbury/Blackpool/Chester services.
Then potentially it changes in 2016 with completion of Blackpool electrification.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Then potentially it changes in 2016 with completion of Blackpool electrification.

I see that you saved the best (and most telling) part of your posting until the end.

 

[mikestone1952]

The Shrewsbury was quoted as as calling at Rugby in the Shropshire CC website. The Rugby RUG has been quite vocal about the loss of VT services other than West Mids, and VT always replied that they could only run the service the DfT specified.
;

 

[Aictos]

In response to the use of a Pendolino on the Blackpool services, it would require top n tail 57s & are the platforms long enough to accommodate either 9 or 11 carriages?

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Why top and tail 57s? Surely runaround facilities still exist at Blackpool North?

Could not a pair of 221s be used to run as one from Euston to Preston then split with one going to Blackpool and the other to Lancaster/Carlisle?

 

[Whistler40145]

A Pendolino with only 1 Class 57 isn't any use as Blackpool North doesn't have crossovers on any Platform to release locomotives. Also, following a derailment about 10 years ago, LHCS being propelled into the sidings derailed, therefore all LHCS require top n tail locomotives from Preston. I don't think Virgin would want to hire in a 2nd 57 as only 1 is normally on hand at Preston. For this reason until Blackpool is wired, a Voyager is the best option for this service.


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[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst much in the way of interesting theoretical train formations that may be so employed have so far been posted upon this thread, was there anything in the Virgin Train service provision statements in their submission that may shed some light upon this matter ?

 

[Boothby97]

How would that work? Are the Shrewsbury services really going to run via Stafford?

Yes, in Today's Railways UK it states that two southbound trains will run from Shrewsbury (at 0706 and 1506), calling at Telford Central, Wellington and Stafford before arrivng at London Euston (at 0918 and 1718)

Two nortbound services will leave London Euston (at 1133 and 1837) and arrive at Shrewsbury at 1350 and 2057.

The services will use the Oxley chord, avoiding Wolverhampton.