Virgin Trains London-West Midlands route/timetime changes from December?

[sn1975]

Hi,

If possible, can someone please explain the changes to the Virgin Trains London-West Midlands route that are expected in December?

We travel frequently with Virgin in the West Midlands area between Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton - can we expect any major changes, i.e. less or more services?

Many thanks.

 

[swt_passenger]

Posts 80 & 81 in this thread should explain what's going on.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87702&highlight=wolverhampton&page=6

Basically the Euston to Wolverhampton and New St to Scotland services will combine, so there'll normally only be one Virgin service per hour between New St and Wolverhampton.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current nn23 Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton will terminate at Birmingham.
The current nn20 Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Scotland will start back from Euston at nn43 and leave Birmingham at nn15.
This calls additionally at Sandwell.
So it's one less VT train between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.
More Voyagers will operate south of Birmingham (and more Pendolinos north towards Scotland).
Early northbound and late southbound Scottish trains will terminate at Birmingham as now.
That's my reading of the changes anyway.
It will change connections at Wolverhampton for Telford/Shrewsbury.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The current nn23 Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton will terminate at Birmingham.
The current nn20 Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Scotland will start back from Euston at nn43 and leave Birmingham at nn15.
This calls additionally at Sandwell.
So it's one less VT train between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.
More Voyagers will operate south of Birmingham (and more Pendolinos north towards Scotland).
Early northbound and late southbound Scottish trains will terminate at Birmingham as now.
That's my reading of the changes anyway.
It will change connections at Wolverhampton for Telford/Shrewsbury.

Interestingly the nn43 departures are the official times for connections to Mid Wales therefore from December passengers for mid Wales will be catching trains to Scotland from Euston.

 

[ValleyLines142]

The current nn23 Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton will terminate at Birmingham.
The current nn20 Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Scotland will start back from Euston at nn43 and leave Birmingham at nn15.
This calls additionally at Sandwell.
So it's one less VT train between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.
More Voyagers will operate south of Birmingham (and more Pendolinos north towards Scotland).
Early northbound and late southbound Scottish trains will terminate at Birmingham as now.
That's my reading of the changes anyway.
It will change connections at Wolverhampton for Telford/Shrewsbury.

What about the xx:03 departures from Euston, or are they not affected?

 

[IanD]

What about the xx:03 departures from Euston, or are they not affected?

They appear to be unchanged Euston-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham Int-Birmingham New Street

 

[ValleyLines142]

They appear to be unchanged Euston-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham Int-Birmingham New Street

Ah, so there's still going to be 1tph from Birmingham to Wolverhampton because the ex xx:20 from Birmingham is starting back from Euston?

Ah, actually, I've just realised. There is currently 2tph from Brum to Wolves; the xx:23 from Euston, and the xx:20 from Brum. The xx:23 is terminating at Brum now. I thought there was going to be two still, both from Euston.

 

[dk1]

Wolverhampton is one of the few places on the WCML other than Livepool that hasn't really had much of an enhanced service with VHF.

Does one train less from Birmingham to Wolverhampton not mean that VT will lose a revenue share to LM?

 

[Eagle]

Probably, but they'll still have a Virgin Only fare on that flow that undercuts the Centro-regulated Any Permitted fare.

 

[dk1]

Probably, but they'll still have a Virgin Only fare on that flow that undercuts the Centro-regulated Any Permitted fare.

Suppose it's a drop in the ocean as Virgin Trains income goes, just unusual to give up a path or revenue stream for a TOC.

 

[Eagle]

Of course it remains to be seen if people will stop buying that ticket because the service is only hourly instead of twice an hour.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Suppose it's a drop in the ocean as Virgin Trains income goes, just unusual to give up a path or revenue stream for a TOC.

No doubt ATW will be pleased with one less train to share revenue with between Wolves and International.

 

[Eagle]

No doubt ATW will be pleased with one less train to share revenue with between Wolves and International.

It's one less train between Wolverhampton and New Street; it's still the same number of trains between New Street and International.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does one train less from Birmingham to Wolverhampton not mean that VT will lose a revenue share to LM?

But they will be gaining share from LM north of Wolverhampton (and from TPE/NT north of Wigan), with more seats (Pendolino or double Voyager instead of single Voyager).

 

[calc7]

The current nn23 Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton will terminate at Birmingham.
The current nn20 Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Scotland will start back from Euston at nn43 and leave Birmingham at nn15.
This calls additionally at Sandwell.
So it's one less VT train between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.
More Voyagers will operate south of Birmingham (and more Pendolinos north towards Scotland).
Early northbound and late southbound Scottish trains will terminate at Birmingham as now.
That's my reading of the changes anyway.
It will change connections at Wolverhampton for Telford/Shrewsbury.

Additionally, the southbound calling pattern from Birmingham N St changes.
The xx30 will now call at Watford Junction (previously Milton Keynes)
The xx10 will now call at Milton Keynes (previously Watford Junction) - this is the service that starts back from Scotland.

 

[Eagle]

Additionally, the southbound calling pattern from Birmingham N St changes.
The xx30 will now call at Watford Junction (previously Milton Keynes)
The xx10 will now call at Milton Keynes (previously Watford Junction) - this is the service that starts back from Scotland.

This is so that it matches the northbound pattern; it's a MK service that is extended to Scotland.

It does mean that the three VT services from MK to London (ex-Chester, ex-Manchester, ex-Scotland) are now bunched up at one end of the hour.

 

[Mojo]

Looking at Trains.im these trains seem to be around an hour/50 Min longer than the 'direct' route via Nuneaton. Timing wise they all seem to be about 15/20 Min (or less from Crewe) near to the train taking the 'direct' route.

Just trying to work out how busy these trains will be and if it makes sense to avoid them when doing London to Birmingham journeys after December.

 

[Philip Elliott]

There is also no 1G01 06.03 Euston - Birmingham resulting in Rugby losing a morning train into Birmingham.

 

[calc7]

Looking at Trains.im these trains seem to be around an hour/50 Min longer than the 'direct' route via Nuneaton. Timing wise they all seem to be about 15/20 Min (or less from Crewe) near to the train taking the 'direct' route.

Just trying to work out how busy these trains will be and if it makes sense to avoid them when doing London to Birmingham journeys after December.

I think they will be busy - I would avoid as they are also MK stoppers and so busy with daytrippers to London.

 

[IrishDave]

There is also no 1G01 06.03 Euston - Birmingham resulting in Rugby losing a morning train into Birmingham.

Actually 1G02 departs 0620 from Euston rather than 0623, so that it can call additionally at Rugby: see http://opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y81409/2013-12-11

 

[Sheepy1209]

Didn't there used to be handful of services which went to Euston via Birmingham as through trains, but were actually two combined services?

I know on a couple of occasions I've bought very cheap advance 1st fares on one of these, which more than made up for the longer journey from Preston.

Is the same likely to apply on these 'via Birmingham' services for through passengers from Preston etc?

(In the case of the one I used, off-peak tickets were also valid earlier than the cut-off time shown on posters, because it arrived later in Euston.)

 

[Robinson]

Anyone know what first class passengers can expect from the new timetable in terms of catering? I did Glasgow-Birmingham twice in September in first class, and the offering was noticeably inferior to Virgin's catering on London-Glasgow services.

 

[Geezertronic]

Didn't there used to be handful of services which went to Euston via Birmingham as through trains, but were actually two combined services?

I know on a couple of occasions I've bought very cheap advance 1st fares on one of these, which more than made up for the longer journey from Preston.

Is the same likely to apply on these 'via Birmingham' services for through passengers from Preston etc?

(In the case of the one I used, off-peak tickets were also valid earlier than the cut-off time shown on posters, because it arrived later in Euston.)

There are still Euston-Birmingham services which form the Birmingham-Scotland services (and reverse)

 

[dannypye9999]

Regarding the Blackpool to Euston services that virgin want to run wouldn't it be easier to just have one of the Chester trains to divert to Blackpool instead, so the timetables show 2tph between Euston and Chester and 2tph between Euston and Blackpool. Problem solved.

 

[krus_aragon]

Regarding the Blackpool to Euston services that virgin want to run wouldn't it be easier to just have one of the Chester trains to divert to Blackpool instead, so the timetables show 2tph between Euston and Chester and 2tph between Euston and Blackpool. Problem solved.

Problem solved, assuming Virgin feel there is no longer demand for an hourly service from Chester. Alternatively, could some of the double-voyager services for Chester/North Wales split at Crewe (P11/12), and serve Blackpool that way? (I've no idea which services are double-formed off the top of my head.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Regarding the Blackpool to Euston services that virgin want to run wouldn't it be easier to just have one of the Chester trains to divert to Blackpool instead, so the timetables show 2tph between Euston and Chester and 2tph between Euston and Blackpool. Problem solved.

Do you mean a through train every 2 hours to each destination?
You would need 2 more Voyagers as Crewe-Blackpool is further than Crewe-Chester (plus turnround).
Also the VT Chester train would need replacing with an ATW one, and you won't win any friends in Chester and North Wales by halving the through service which is very popular.

Problem solved, assuming Virgin feel there is no longer demand for an hourly service from Chester. Alternatively, could some of the double-voyager services for Chester/North Wales split at Crewe (P11/12), and serve Blackpool that way? (I've no idea which services are double-formed off the top of my head.)

There's no sign that Virgin think that an hourly Chester service is not needed.
In any case it's the DfT's VHF timetable which is about maximising utilisation of the VT 221s for the one hourly diesel service out of Euston.
The Chester service also connects to North Wales/Wirral.
The Chester Voyagers are single units off-peak except for the 0910 down and 1535 up (the one daytime through service to/from Holyhead).

In the peak, the first Chester train of the day (0626, 0448 ex Holyhead) doubles up at Crewe with the Lancaster starter at 0535.
That unit could easily start from Blackpool.
Good luck telling Lancaster they lose out.

 

[Dunc108]

Do you mean a through train every 2 hours to each destination?
You would need 2 more Voyagers as Crewe-Blackpool is further than Crewe-Chester (plus turnround).
Also the VT Chester train would need replacing with an ATW one, and you won't win any friends in Chester and North Wales by halving the through service which is very popular.



There's no sign that Virgin think that an hourly Chester service is not needed.
In any case it's the DfT's VHF timetable which is about maximising utilisation of the VT 221s for the one hourly diesel service out of Euston.
The Chester service also connects to North Wales/Wirral.
The Chester Voyagers are single units off-peak except for the 0910 down and 1535 up (the one daytime through service to/from Holyhead).

In the peak, the first Chester train of the day (0626, 0448 ex Holyhead) doubles up at Crewe with the Lancaster starter at 0535.
That unit could easily start from Blackpool.
Good luck telling Lancaster they lose out.

Yes, Lancaster would lose out, Lancaster's a key interchange for TPE & Northern services from South & Central Cumbria, not to mention Morecambe shuttles which rely on main line connections. Virgin services are very well used from Lancaster, theres heavy commuter flows also between Lancaster & Preston, Lancaster being a University City makes them even busier...

 

[krus_aragon]

There's no sign that Virgin think that an hourly Chester service is not needed.

I wasn't aware of any change of heart in that respect either.

 

[dannypye9999]

Do you mean a through train every 2 hours to each destination?
You would need 2 more Voyagers as Crewe-Blackpool is further than Crewe-Chester (plus turnround).


.

Maybe not at 2 hour intervals but virgins idea is to run one train daily in each direction. One of the early evening Chester trains from Euston could run to Blackpool instead of Chester meaning one of the morning services from Chester would have to start at Blackpool.

What about the 18:43 Euston to Crewe?? Couldn't this continue towards Blackpool?......Or does it have to terminate at Crewe..whats it forming the next day?

 

[Eagle]

What about the 18:43 Euston to Crewe?? Couldn't this continue towards Blackpool?

No, because it's a Pendolino. Also it goes via Birmingham so it would be slow.