Virgin Trains East Coast launch day

[SaveECRewards]

But, bearing in mind that Stagecoach owns 90% of the company and so could just as easily applied for the franchise solo, they clearly saw business value in having the Virgin brand. One would expect them to want to quickly exploit it.

I don't know why they didn't. They could have kept the East Coast brand saying they own the rights to it or rebrand as East Coast Trains in Stagecoach style.

Apart from a nice livery (and the Stagecoach ones are good too) what does the Virgin brand get you? East Coast had already built a reputation out of nothing and had received a couple of top brand awards.

I think just like the switch to Nectar it was ill thought out. They could have owned 100% of it and kept a well liked brand. It's likely a lot of the public would not have noticed the difference if they just carried on as usual.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I don't know why they didn't. They could have kept the East Coast brand saying they own the rights to it or rebrand as East Coast Trains in Stagecoach style.

.

image is everything; having EMT and ECT as Stagecoach branded products would reduce the appearance of competition between the MML and ECML south of Doncaster ...

instead they've got away with a very light consideration from acompetition point of view ...

 

[glbotu]

I don't know why they didn't. They could have kept the East Coast brand saying they own the rights to it or rebrand as East Coast Trains in Stagecoach style.

I think something that we often overlook when looking at what a Train Operating Companies' jobs are is dealing with the public. I don't mean from a day to day perspective (which doesn't change too much), I mean dealing with the press when things go wrong, dealing with general publicising of the service and generally drawing positive attention towards the service. Virgin has, time and time again, shown that this is something they excel at.

While we, who have reasonable knowledge of the railways, hold generally a sceptical view of beardy's antics, the general public, who knows very little about the operation of the railways, falls for them hook, line and sinker. They genuinely think Virgin was responsible for the WCML upgrade and all of the good things to come out of the West Coast. If Stagecoach can expect the same level of public perception management and marketing on the ECML, then it's a great deal for them.

 

[gavin]

I've noticed a few sets that VTEC have ran lately have had the full livery on the drive cabs but the coaches are in the old EC livery

 

[fairysdad]

While we, who have reasonable knowledge of the railways, hold generally a sceptical view of beardy's antics, the general public, who knows very little about the operation of the railways, falls for them hook, line and sinker. They genuinely think Virgin was responsible for the WCML upgrade and all of the good things to come out of the West Coast. If Stagecoach can expect the same level of public perception management and marketing on the ECML, then it's a great deal for them.

Echoes of something I posted ages ago (in either this thread or another VTEC thread) - what they could have done to make that pubic perception of Virgin's railway branding better is to keep the East Coast branding, but plaster the new SET/IEP/Whatever trains with the Virgin branding when they start coming out... I'm quite glad they didn't, as that would *really* have twisted the public opinion of things!

(Initially, I think I said use a Stagecoach branding instead of the existing East Coast one, until it was pointed out that Stagecoach is a strong brand who wouldn't have wanted that sort of spin against themselves)

 

[Northern Pacer]

Not just that, look what else Virgin are doing in April.

Virgin Trains is replacing traditional seats with exercise bikes, cross trainers and running machines to create the world's first ever on-board travelling gym on its fleet of Pendolinos and Super Voyager trains...

...Named 'Fitness Coach' one carriage on each train will be packed full of state-of-the-art gym equipment that's been hand-picked with the help of fitness experts at Virgin Active. In a ground-breaking move, the kinetic energy generated from each Fitness Coach will be harnessed and returned to the Grid increasing Virgin Trains' energy return to 30 per cent.

I'm sorry but that's literally the worst idea ever. As if the "Super" Vomiters had too few seats already, added to the fact it's not uncommon for Pendos to be full, taking seats away? Really Branson? The man's an idiot that has no idea that it's a railway, not a place for a 'Fitness Coach'. I don't see a way in which this'll go down well with commuters OR bashers/enthusiasts.
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I'm sorry but that's literally the worst idea ever. As if the "Super" Vomiters had too few seats already, added to the fact it's not uncommon for Pendos to be full, taking seats away? Really Branson? The man's an idiot that has no idea that it's a railway, not a place for a 'Fitness Coach'. I don't see a way in which this'll go down well with commuters OR bashers/enthusiasts.

It's ok guys, i asked VT on twitter and i found out it was an april fool. Panic over lol.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure anyone had taken seriously what with the date they 'announced' it...

 

[capital12]

I'm not sure anyone had taken seriously what with the date they 'announced' it...

I think Northern Pacer had...!!

 

[Scotty]

I'm sorry but that's literally the worst idea ever. As if the "Super" Vomiters had too few seats already, added to the fact it's not uncommon for Pendos to be full, taking seats away? Really Branson? The man's an idiot that has no idea that it's a railway, not a place for a 'Fitness Coach'. I don't see a way in which this'll go down well with commuters OR bashers/enthusiasts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's ok guys, i asked VT on twitter and i found out it was an april fool. Panic over lol.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm not sure anyone had taken seriously what with the date they 'announced' it...

However if they had announced that they were taking the seats out and leaving it as standing room only - it would have made the Daily Mail as a follow up story

 

[TUC]

I don't know why they didn't. They could have kept the East Coast brand saying they own the rights to it or rebrand as East Coast Trains in Stagecoach style.

Apart from a nice livery (and the Stagecoach ones are good too) what does the Virgin brand get you? East Coast had already built a reputation out of nothing and had received a couple of top brand awards.

The Virgin brand gets you quite a lot. Put the East Coast brand and the Virgin Trains brand up for auction and I guarantee that the Virgin brand would sell for at least fifty times as much. The notion that the East Coast brand has any significant value is, to be honest, rail enthusiasts talking to themselves and assuming the rest of the world thinks the same.

Why do you think that so many people signed petitions to support Virgin West Coast when it was thought that they had lost the franchise? It wasn't because of any great understanding of legal reasons why the franchising process had been flawed. It was because they liked Virgin as a brand, and that is where the value lies.

 

[Deerfold]

The Virgin brand gets you quite a lot. Put the East Coast brand and the Virgin Trains brand up for auction and I guarantee that the Virgin brand would sell for at least fifty times as much. The notion that the East Coast brand has any significant value is, to be honest, rail enthusiasts talking to themselves and assuming the rest of the world thinks the same.

Why do you think that so many people signed petitions to support Virgin West Coast when it was thought that they had lost the franchise? It wasn't because of any great understanding of legal reasons why the franchising process had been flawed. It was because they liked Virgin as a brand, and that is where the value lies.

On the West Coast passengers saw the results of the line upgrade and the new trains and attributed that to Virgin.

Most regular passengers on the East Coast have seen the improvements since National Express went so may be less lilkely to go for Virgin (until they've proved themselves - so far my experience is much the same except for the Rewards scheme).

Perhaps the Virgin brand will attract new passengers - though EC have been doing quite a good job of that.

 

[SaveECRewards]

The Virgin brand gets you quite a lot. Put the East Coast brand and the Virgin Trains brand up for auction and I guarantee that the Virgin brand would sell for at least fifty times as much.

Of course the Virgin brand is worth a lot more, it can be placed on almost anything. The East Coast brand is more specific to a geographical region.

East Coast built their reputation from scratch (and did indeed win at least two 'top brand' awards), Virgin is more reputation in a can. As people liked East Coast the change to Virgin excited fewer people, plus remember all those who remember Virgin CrossCountry, it has someone soured the Virgin Trains reputation.

I think David Horne gets this, I don't know if they're still there but there were some nice posters in the stations and on the trains saying they plan on building on the success of East Coast, unfortunately no one sent Richard Branson the memo as when he was here he said he wanted East Coast to sing like West Coast (no thanks!)

I really think they'll lose more by scrapping rewards than they'll gain by the Virgin brand. Remember the FoI request, East Coast made more off the commissions of additional 3rd party sales than it cost to give out rewards. Now there's no incentive to book 3rd party tickets through VTEC as you're better off booking through FGW who give Nectar for all travel (not sure why Virgin don't).

The nice thing about the freedom of information act is we could get an insight into how well East Coast Rewards worked. The scheme did such an excellent job of attracting customers and was self financing that it just seems such a crazy decision to scrap it.

 

[Clip]

I really think they'll lose more by scrapping rewards than they'll gain by the Virgin brand. Remember the FoI request, East Coast made more off the commissions of additional 3rd party sales than it cost to give out rewards. Now there's no incentive to book 3rd party tickets through VTEC as you're better off booking through FGW who give Nectar for all travel (not sure why Virgin don't).

The nice thing about the freedom of information act is we could get an insight into how well East Coast Rewards worked. The scheme did such an excellent job of attracting customers and was self financing that it just seems such a crazy decision to scrap it.

No matter how much spin you try and put on it I will point out for balance that the FOI request you made and champion is only for the NON EC journeys.

As you well know and as you have said in the past that lots of you used your rewards on train tickets, something that you helpfully leave out of your nice webpage as it is something that you haven't really asked for as you may not like the answer isn't it?

half a million registered users for EC rewards

Not going very well is it.

 

[DarloRich]

I assume that VTEC are immune from FOI requests unlike East Coast

 

[Clip]

I assume that VTEC are immune from FOI requests unlike East Coast

Probably. But it would be interesting to know how many 1st class tickets were claimed using their rewards scheme and the distances involved so we could actually get the true cost of the scheme. London to Scotland isn't cheap.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Probably. But it would be interesting to know how many 1st class tickets were claimed using their rewards scheme and the distances involved so we could actually get the true cost of the scheme. London to Scotland isn't cheap.

But by that same token, I used two free rewards tickets for the wife and I to go to Aberdeen, then used the east coast website to book to Tickets from Aberdeen to Inverness, Stayed a few days, and bought two First class Tickets back to our starting location. So two free tickets meant I spent a few bob on the rest of the travel. Without the free tickets I wouldn't have made the journey in the first place.

 

[TUC]

Rewards schemes come, rewards schemes go with any retailer. Who cares? Move on.

 

[Starmill]

I've booked a journey on the Sleeper, and other journeys on the same trip that total well over £100 as a result of having Rewards to use.

 

[SaveECRewards]

No matter how much spin you try and put on it I will point out for balance that the FOI request you made and champion is only for the NON EC journeys.

As you well know and as you have said in the past that lots of you used your rewards on train tickets, something that you helpfully leave out of your nice webpage as it is something that you haven't really asked for as you may not like the answer isn't it?

half a million registered users for EC rewards

Not going very well is it.

I love the fact you're showing the 225 signatures image which was posted when the petition was under a week old! So who's the one spinning it when you deliberately quote old info and the petition was over 600 when you actually did post? The petition is relatively new (about 3 weeks old) as it was created by a new contributor to the campaign.

That's over 600 people who've bothered to sign up to change.org to sign the petition. I can't see that many people caring if they scrapped Nectar.

As someone else pointed out, unfortunately we can't FoI VTEC. I would love to know how many people have stopped booking third party tickets through the ECML site, the commission of which was more than enough to fund the scheme. There's now NO incentive to book third party tickets through this site, if you want Nectar then you need to book through FirstGroup to get points on all tickets.

Can I just say what a crazy thing to say? Of course we know most people used their points on train tickets. That was the main point of the scheme! I don't think we need a FoI request to prove that most people did that, it was pretty much a given. But to get the free tickets you needed to earn the free tickets. That's the whole idea of a loyalty scheme (which Nectar fails at) it encouraged us to (a) travel by rail, (b) book tickets through their website and (c) upgrade to first class. On the other hand Nectar (a) is currently giving more points for fuel than rail travel, (b) encourages booking through a FirstGroup website and (c) offers no incentive to upgrade.

Rewards schemes come, rewards schemes go with any retailer. Who cares? Move on.

So you want me to give up because YOU said so? I ask you why? What makes you say what I can dedicate my time to? You may be surprised but the support has risen since March. That's how we've appeared more active because there's more people working on it. Even if I moved on, they wouldn't.

It was the best loyalty scheme in the UK and now we've got one that actually gives you more points if you drive (10x offer on Sainsbury's fuel) than take the train!

As someone said to me a few days ago, the good thing about those that tell you to give up is they quickly give up telling you to give up. We had something great, we have rights to stand up for what we believe in, why should we give up when some company takes over with loads of marketing spin of how great they are, describing Nectar as a 'truly rewarding experience', we've had proper loyalty schemes on the ECML since GNER days!

Some people may be happy to sit back and let changes for the worse happen, doesn't mean we all have to.

 

[Clip]

I love the fact you're showing the 225 signatures image which was posted when the petition was under a week old! So who's the one spinning it when you deliberately quote old info and the petition was over 600 when you actually did post? The petition is relatively new (about 3 weeks old) as it was created by a new contributor to the campaign.

Im not spinning anything - I am only going on the data that you have provided on your own website. If you cant be bothered keeping it up to date then you cant fault others for using it.

 

[scotsman]

No matter how much spin you try and put on it I will point out for balance that the FOI request you made and champion is only for the NON EC journeys.

As you well know and as you have said in the past that lots of you used your rewards on train tickets, something that you helpfully leave out of your nice webpage as it is something that you haven't really asked for as you may not like the answer isn't it?

half a million registered users for EC rewards

Not going very well is it.

I doubt you'd get info on rewards tickets claimed, as that's commercially sensitive info, and not valid to request under FOI.

 

[westv]

I'm now totally fed up with the EMT set.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Im not spinning anything - I am only going on the data that you have provided on your own website. If you cant be bothered keeping it up to date then you cant fault others for using it.

That was a news article about the launch of the website, it clearly said that the 225 was obtained in under 48 hours.

The petition is clearly linked to for those who are interested.

I can't believe you think I'm keeping it a secret that most people redeem for free tickets. It was the best use for them, of course that's what most people use them for!

I redeemed Avios to Los Angeles a while ago. I got a first class seat both ways for 'fees + taxes' or in other words around the price of the cheapest economy seat. You can buy first class flights for over £8k. Obviously the cost to BA was not £8k.

The idea of loyalty schemes is to offer something that's relatively cheap for you to provide (in EC's case seats on their own services) in order to bring in extra revenue. East Coast benefitted in the following ways:

• More people booked their East Coast tickets on their own website (saving them paying out commission)
• More people booked other operator tickets on the EC website (gaining them commission)
• More people switched from telesales or ticket office booking to online (saving them general admin costs)
• More people tried First Class through rewards and were more likely to upgrade in future after seeing the benefits.

Now we have the ridiculous situation where you get more Nectar points on petrol than you do on rail travel.

 

[Gateliner]

No matter how much spin you try and put on it I will point out for balance that the FOI request you made and champion is only for the NON EC journeys.

As you well know and as you have said in the past that lots of you used your rewards on train tickets, something that you helpfully leave out of your nice webpage as it is something that you haven't really asked for as you may not like the answer isn't it?

half a million registered users for EC rewards

Not going very well is it.

I've just signed up on this site and I'll admit it the sole purpose is to defend the campaign. Slate me if you wish, but I just want to put the points across.

The FOI request was how much money EC made and how much it cost them to provide the rewards in return. Profit. I'm sure you already know that.

I'm not really understanding your second point about train tickets. It was by far the best way to spend points i.e. every £255 you spend on train tickets on any TOC on any service, you get a free ticket anywhere on EC's network totally free of charge and you could have that for 2 years. Virgin then came in and scrapped it and have given us until late September to spend them. But the thing is these could be spent on other products too like first class lounge access, free wi-fi, M&S vouchers, premium beers et al. All had better redemption rates than Nectar. But as it was the best value for money, it was the most popular.

The picture you put up was last week. As of 19:00 this evening Save East Coast Rewards has 1456 followers on Twitter, 223 likes on Facebook and 676 signatories on a petition. Whilst a small number, it is growing steadily as people become more aware, and this is what the campaign for me is all about really, making people aware.

Im not spinning anything - I am only going on the data that you have provided on your own website. If you cant be bothered keeping it up to date then you cant fault others for using it.

All you need to do is go to change.org to find out how many the petition has. Whilst the guys on Facebook and Twitter have been posting updates on it for the past week, here's one from the 12th that you could've picked but chose not to.

But it is ironic you tell EC that they're creating the spin whilst Virgin-Stagecoach over there snigger in the corner over the majority being dumb enough to think Nectar is the better deal for the consumer, when it's not. Save EC are providing hard facts from the old scheme, providing data from the FOI requests from the old East Coast company and you're knit picking over this? Hm.
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Rewards schemes come, rewards schemes go with any retailer. Who cares? Move on.

Never let go of a good thing, they say.

Personally I do care since I'm standing to lose up to £40 for my points. Plus any future tickets.

If everyone had that attitude then this world would be done for. Change can be good or bad, but this is a step in the wrong direction. And since Virgin-Stagecoach don't care what people say yet, Save EC are aiming to get louder to make them listen.

Just think how much money everybody could save.

 

[lincolnshire]

How can you ask for a freedom of information request for how much East Coast made out of its reward scheme, form a private company as you will find that East Coast Railways Ltd was a private company, set up by and run by Directly Operated Railways yet again another private company just like Network Rail was until it was taken back under the governments umbrella. The answer was at Network Rail if anyone asked about freedom of information request then we are a private company backed by government guarantee so sorry no information from us in other words.

Just think They could have said that all East Coast rewards had to be used by the end of the franchise as the new company will not honour the old scheme after start of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise.

Nothing stays the same in this life, thats life.

 

[SaveECRewards]

A motivating factor for me is some of the comments that have been posted to the petition as well as encouraging emails.

I can't share emails without permission as they're private, but the comments to the petition are public and are intended to be shared.

Here's some examples of what East Coast Rewards mean to people.

A couple that were posted in the last hour:

As pensioners, the Rewards scheme enabled us to visit Scotland last year, and we would make more trips if the scheme was reinstated. It was never an issue who to book our rail tickets through, but now I'll go with the website that is easiest to use. I already have over £100 worth of Nectar points, and have no interest in this alternative offering.

I work in the charity sector travel almost every week from Edinburgh to London - so the cancellation of Rewards represents a huge fare rise for me. Getting occasional free tickets from time to time always incentivised me to book via the East Coast site (even if I was travelling on other services), helped me travel more and enabled me feel really warmly towards the company. I don't feel the same towards Virgin East Coast and feel really let down.

And a pick from the older comments:

I have been travelling Edinburgh to London for 20 years and the EC loyalty scheme and its predecessors allowed me to attend trustee meeting of a charity at a low cost to them. I don't intend to continue using the VTEC booking site without restoration of a loyalty scheme similar to the EC one

I live in london but all my family love in Durham so travel north on the East Coast line very frequently. I spend a significant amount if money on travel and thought the East Coast Rewards was a lovely scheme that really have back to loyal customers and made me love the operator and what they stood for. The Nectar scheme is an absolute insult in comparison. So much so I am looking at alternative routes to Durham as I do not wish to give Virgin East Coast my custom when they obviously don't respect their customer.

I used the reward tickets to visit my disabled dad in Yorkshire. It meant I could go more often to see him. I worked out how lousy the exchange rate for nectar points is... Very poor exchange that can't even get a cinema ticket. It would be wonderful if you changed your mind. I have no way to use up all my reward tickets before the deadline.

the rewards scheme with East Coast was a no brainer. I spend a ton of money travelling home from uni and I'm a student so these rewards were really great for me. Why on earth would you replace that with nectar points? Who even uses those except for grocery shopping? How is that in any way equivalent to free tickets????

The Rewards scheme was excellent. I travel to London a fair amount with work and used the rewards points to treat my family to weekend trips away (including London) travelling first class - something we could never afford to do normally. Nectar points a third class substitute.

My spend with East coast was large due to a very long distance relationship. I regularly used East coast to travel between York and Inverness. The rewards was a very welcome addition. I could make an additional journey to see my partner for free, which was a great help. Now instead of I free journey, I might just have enough nectar points to have a free kit kat to eat on the train. Virgin East coast have now lost my business as I now travel cross country to Edinburgh and change to Scots rail for the journey on to Inverness. Having to change trains is a small price to pay to show my protest

East Coast rewards Scheme really was a superb loyalty bonus - I now live in Edinburgh but I am from London with an elderly mother I try and get home around 4 times a year with my husband and daughters (sometime with friends too) I always sneak in a visit and not let my mum know if this journey as she worries about the coast - her smile is even bigger when I tell her that it is courtesy of East Coast. I really don't collect or want nectar points I would rather feel the excitement of surprising my mum with an extra journey which I would not be able to do without the reward scheme and see the smile and amazement when I always remind her that East Coast have sent me home free of charge. So future years sadly I won't get to cherish and have those memories with my mum for the time she is still with us. Very sad indeed!

 

[JaJaWa]

How can you ask for a freedom of information request for how much East Coast made out of its reward scheme, form a private company as you will find that East Coast Railways Ltd was a private company, set up by and run by Directly Operated Railways yet again another private company just like Network Rail was until it was taken back under the governments umbrella. The answer was at Network Rail if anyone asked about freedom of information request then we are a private company backed by government guarantee so sorry no information from us in other words.

No it wasn't: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/east_coast.

 

[SaveECRewards]

How can you ask for a freedom of information request for how much East Coast made out of its reward scheme, form a private company as you will find that East Coast Railways Ltd was a private company, set up by and run by Directly Operated Railways yet again another private company just like Network Rail was until it was taken back under the governments umbrella. The answer was at Network Rail if anyone asked about freedom of information request then we are a private company backed by government guarantee so sorry no information from us in other words.

Just think They could have said that all East Coast rewards had to be used by the end of the franchise as the new company will not honour the old scheme after start of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise.

Nothing stays the same in this life, thats life.

You need to look at my site!

We made two FoI requests, and they were both honoured.

The first was on East Coast letterhead and the second one was on Virgin Trains East Coast letterhead. VTEC said they didn't have to do this, but as I sent my request in late February when the company was still public they said they would still process my request.

BTW there is no new rail company, on 28 February the operator was East Coast Main Line Company Ltd (T/A East Coast) on the 1 March it was still East Coast Main Line Company Ltd but trading as Virgin Trains East Coast. The government simply sold the company on to the Virgin/Stagecoach consortium. Therefore it inherited all their assets, computer systems, etc. They also own the East Coast brand if they ever want to use it (that's why you still see it around, they didn't have to debrand anything). If you don't believe me, look at the copyright notice in the footer of the VTEC website or the second FoI request.

We fight for what we believe in! Richard Branson told us that.

One of the key things we have learned from this episode is to never give up if you think right is on your side.

Some people may want to accept change for the worse, I'm not one of them.

We have supporters from every main political party so it's not a nationalisation v privatisation argument (I have my own views on that, others vary). Just like I never supported everything East Coast did, I don't have to support everything they do now that they have private owners. Companies are there to serve their customer and so just like Richard Branson says you need to never give up if you think right is on your side.

As my quotes in my previous comment show, East Coast meant a lot to some people, it enhanced their quality of life, helped keep costs low for charities, make long distance relationships a little bit easier and brought families closer together.

I've realised Rewards mean a lot to many people and that helps keep me going. For me my reason doesn't compare to those. I've been a member of GNER excel, GNERtime, NXEC escape, as well as both iterations of East Coast Rewards. Loyalty schemes have been a part of the ECML since privatisation, it's one of the things that made the East Coast Mainline just a little bit more special than other lines.

Don't think I'm anti-VTEC. I think David Horne has the right amount of experience, he seems to be the right man for the job and I fully support his appointment. The new livery looks nice, but I think they scored a dreadful own goal with Nectar. It may be difficult to get out of the contract but where there's a will there's a way. Note other contributors have different views on VTEC management so you may hear different opinions on that.

 

[387star]

I'm now totally fed up with the EMT set.

Which one?