Virgin Trains East Coast launch day

[cf111]

Quote from Stagecoach website:

"The new franchise will start in March 2015 and is planned to run until 31 March 2023, with the option for a one-year extension at the DfT’s discretion. It includes a commitment to deliver £2.3bn in real terms in premium payments to the Government between 2015 and 2023, providing a higher return to the taxpayer than under the current arrangements."

Personally, I'm amazed they're making such a comprehensive change to the EC livery for the 3 years or so that the Class 90's and Mk 4's will be carrying it. Thought they would have just modified the EC grey witgh a splash of red, and left this until IEP came along. Shows you what I know! lol

I was expecting a massive departure, Virgin have built an empire from branding.

 

[yorksrob]

Karen Boswell and the EC team done a decent job with EC and yes they returned a lot of money to the treasury, however when you actually stand back and look at everything very little was done with EC for years. Her remit was to keep it ticking over and that is pretty much what she has done since the introduction of Eureka. The return to the exchequer would have been nowhere near the level it was had the business been developed rather than standstill for years.

For better/for worse, they did substantially re-jig the catering. Given how little room for manoeuvre franchisees generally have over timetabling and rolling stock, that's a reasonable sized change.

New livery looks nice enough (so long as they can keep the white bits clean).

I hope they don't plaster everything in gaudy red upholstery though.

 

[martynbristow]

For better/for worse, they did substantially re-jig the catering. Given how little room for manoeuvre franchisees generally have over timetabling and rolling stock, that's a reasonable sized change.

She and her team have done a fine job indeed, but they turned around a failing business and a corporate reshuffle is whats needed now to prepare for IEP.
Hopefully Virgin* will do this well

 

[gavin]

Anyone know what times 91124 will be running tomorrow?

 

[Chrism20]

what on earth are you talking about?

EC returned £1bn to the treasury. One Billion, in 5 years. How long will VTEC take to return the same?

Have you thought that many real people ( not spotters but real people) are very angry that the government chose to sell of a financially successful publicly owned company? Many people worry about much more than the colours of the trains!

EDIT i have stayed out of this thread as i know my views aren't welcome but sometimes............

I am entitle to my opinion, I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Yes it returned a lot to the treasury - a hell of a lot, in that time there has been next to nothing spent on the rolling stock other than essential maintenance.

Some of that money should have been put back into the business to improve it and develop it further improving service, performance etc.

Returning more than EC did whilst introducing new rolling stock (And tbh I couldn't give a toss who ordered, who picked it etc etc, VTEC will be the ones to introduce it), upgrading the existing fleet, extending services, introducing new ones etc etc will be damn difficult, however VTEC and their bid think they can do it. We can only hope the DFT have made sure it stacks up so we don't end up with the same thing again.

And as for your last comment, I merely commented I liked the colour of the train I also have much more to worry about. Find me a company that can carry on returning those levels of cash with very little investment over a sustained period of time as I would like to invest.

I understand why people are angry BUT that anger should not be directed at the winning bidder (IMO), it should be directed at the politicians who made the decision. They were hell bent on re-privatising it profit or not and if it hadn't been Virgin/Stagecoach it would have been one of the others. The comments on social media are bordering on absurd. The rewards I can understand, I'd say I'll lose about twelve First Class returns a year due to it but ten point lists etc lampooning someone because someone else picked the trains and emissions etc is just ridiculous.

And for the record we can agree on one thing - that level of return is nigh on impossible, but if they manage it I'll happily write to Messrs Soutar & Branson to congratulate them.

 

[Searle]

Anyone know what times 91124 will be running tomorrow?

I'd advise making a thread dedicated to it for people to keep up with it.

 

[yorksrob]

She and her team have done a fine job indeed, but they turned around a failing business and a corporate reshuffle is whats needed now to prepare for IEP.
Hopefully Virgin* will do this well

For me, it will primarily be about the fares structure. Grand Central and EMT often provide a very good alternative even now.

 

[Chrism20]

For better/for worse, they did substantially re-jig the catering. Given how little room for manoeuvre franchisees generally have over timetabling and rolling stock, that's a reasonable sized change.

New livery looks nice enough (so long as they can keep the white bits clean).

I hope they don't plaster everything in gaudy red upholstery though.

Yes the catering, it's scary to think that was what? Four years ago now, my thoughts on that are well documented elsewhere.

I'd say red is a guaranteed certainty for the upholstery.

 

[martynbristow]

I am entitle to my opinion, I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Yes it returned a lot to the treasury - a hell of a lot, in that time there has been next to nothing spent on the rolling stock other than essential maintenance.

Some of that money should have been put back into the business to improve it and develop it further improving service, performance etc.

Returning more than EC did whilst introducing new rolling stock (And tbh I couldn't give a toss who ordered, who picked it etc etc, VTEC will be the ones to introduce it), upgrading the existing fleet, extending services, introducing new ones etc etc will be damn difficult, however VTEC and their bid think they can do it. We can only hope the DFT have made sure it stacks up so we don't end up with the same thing again.

And as for your last comment, I merely commented I liked the colour of the train I also have much more to worry about. Find me a company that can carry on returning those levels of cash with very little investment over a sustained period of time as I would like to invest.

I understand why people are angry BUT that anger should not be directed at the winning bidder (IMO), it should be directed at the politicians who made the decision. They were hell bent on re-privatising it profit or not and if it hadn't been Virgin/Stagecoach it would have been one of the others.

And for the record we can agree on one thing - that level of return is nigh on impossible

Virgin Trains are to return 2.3bn over 8 years I read somewhere, and the BBC are stating 3bn
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31680914
So its a hefty improvement, and yes some more government outlay but the figures seem impressive if they can meet them

 

[yorksrob]

Yes the catering, it's scary to think that was what? Four years ago now, my thoughts on that are well documented elsewhere.

I'd say red is a guaranteed certainty for the upholstery.

Four years isn't a long time in catering.

Think how little decor and menus at places like McDonalds, Beefeater, Wagamama, Subway etc change over long periods of time.

With regard to moquette, there seems to have been a substantial decline in aesthetic quality since BR.

 

[387star]

Confused about the livery is it mostly vinyl?

I thought the undercoat livery had to be used although to be fair there were two variants of this plus most mk3s still in national express livery...

Presume the east coast repaints weren't in vain and form the basis for the new livery?

They seem to be rebranding very very fast

 

[ThePannier]

Looking forward to making a couple of short journeys with Virgin EC on Sunday morning (hopefully!).

I wish them the best of luck with all their future operations, investments, and ventures.

 

[cjmillsnun]

For comparison with the original.

Now that is classy!

 

[JaJaWa]

I wonder when/if we'll be seeing an HST in the new livery.

 

[387star]

Presume the ex EMT grey set will retain original seats

 

[Chrism20]

Four years isn't a long time in catering.

Think how little decor and menus at places like McDonalds, Beefeater, Wagamama, Subway etc change over long periods of time.

With regard to moquette, there seems to have been a substantial decline in aesthetic quality since BR.

I worked in catering for about six years, believe me it's a very long time

There is continual NPD and investment in these brands however which is the difference. You mentioned Beefeater which is Whitbread who I worked for. Their test kitchen works at least five days a week testing different products. The planning at that stage is immense and very little makes it out of test.

Can't disagree with you about the moquette

 

[Bodiddly]

Just saw the new set decked out in Beardy branding on the news.
Just as minging as everything else Virgin touches!

 

[yorksrob]

I worked in catering for about six years, believe me it's a very long time

There is continual NPD and investment in these brands however which is the difference. You mentioned Beefeater which is Whitbread who I worked for. Their test kitchen works at least five days a week testing different products. The planning at that stage is immense and very little makes it out of test.

I hope it wasn't you who got rid of the pre-meal bread roll

I suppose my point is that the customer experience doesn't change that much over that time. My experience when buying a Big Mac from Leeds City station hasn't changed at all over longer than four years and I doubt most TOC's substantially change how they run their meals any more frequently.

 

[TUC]

I quite like the livery and I think the loco looks good in the red. I'm not too keen on the bit leading off the swish but that's just my opinion. I think it will look the business on an HST though when they are done.

I've had a quick look on Facebook this afternoon and my word people need to get a grip. It is day two and the vitriol is beyond belief, I actually had to stop reading as it is just ridiculous.

Karen Boswell and the EC team done a decent job with EC and yes they returned a lot of money to the treasury, however when you actually stand back and look at everything very little was done with EC for years. Her remit was to keep it ticking over and that is pretty much what she has done since the introduction of Eureka. The return to the exchequer would have been nowhere near the level it was had the business been developed rather than standstill for years.

That's the problem with state-run services. The more competent ones can keep things ticking over OK. Some, such as BR, could do big step changes such as the introduction of 125s well. What they are often not good at (unless it's someone exceptional like Chris Green) is to turn standard services day in, day out into attractive products that positvely grow passengers in large numbers and increase satisfaction levels..

 

[fgwrich]

I notice the swoosh reverses over the top of the buffet car and sweeps the other direction across the First class coaches.

Very surprised to read this is a Ray Stenning design though as it lacks any sort of flair or style usually associated with Best Impressions' work.

Shame to see the website already dumbed down by Virgin to appeal to dim people whilst patronising everyone else who isn't 7 years old.

I've noticed that with the website. I hate it already, it is too Virgin. Too look at this, look at theeese, look at this (now say that in a Jeremy Clarkson excited voice and it's how the website looks!).

Notice the typeface is standard Ray Stenning. Does he use anymore than the standard Best Impressions typeface in use with Go Ahead's Southern, South Eastern, London Midland, GTR, Southern Vectis, More Bus, Salisbury Reds, Brighton and Hove, Bluestar, Buses of Somerset, First Kernow and anyone else Stenning has worked with including VTEC?

https://twitter.com/JaJaWa/status/572359730754162688

EC May have been drab, but this is too overdone. We've gone from keep it simple to look at these curves, and swishes, and fadey bits, and flashy bits. I think it might have worked better had it not been full of swishy lines, black around the cab windows, silvery around the light clusters, full yellow, and get rid of the awful curvy lines across the buffet car. That is awful!

 

[E-Rail]

Notice the typeface is standard Ray Stenning. Does he use anymore than the standard Best Impressions typeface in use with Go Ahead's Southern, South Eastern, London Midland, GTR, Southern Vectis, More Bus, Salisbury Reds, Brighton and Hove, Bluestar, Buses of Somerset, First Kernow and anyone else Stenning has worked with including VTEC?

The font used by Virgin for publicity etc is Neo Sans font and yeah it is the same one used by Go South Coast.

 

[aylesbury]

Why do so many people dislike Virgin they do a good job on the WCML and will do a good one on the EC .Virgin as a brand has brought out many good products and is a respected headed up by someone who has vision .Maybe this is why people do not like him and the brand in the UK entrepenours are disliked and stodgy stick in the mud is lauded as perfect.Lets wait and see how Virgin Stagecoach perform and I hope the facebook vitriol subsides quickly.

 

[JaJaWa]

I've had a quick look on Facebook this afternoon and my word people need to get a grip. It is day two and the vitriol is beyond belief, I actually had to stop reading as it is just ridiculous.

They've now deleted their Facebook account!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They've now deleted their Facebook account!

No, it's still there.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The font used by Virgin for publicity etc is Neo Sans font and yeah it is the same one used by Go South Coast.

Yes, I think the Stenning standard fonts are getting a bit tired. They are also typecast to Go Ahead - the First "Buses of Somerset" operation (another Stenning job) looks like it's Go-Ahead!

Neil

 

[mildertduck]

Here's my video from Durham this morning - sorry for the quality, the sun was in the wrong place, and it was blowing a gale! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-yyF8bpJF4

 

[DarloRich]

I am entitle to my opinion, I'm sorry if you don't like it.

More than happy to see opinion. I just dont agree.

Yes it returned a lot to the treasury - a hell of a lot, in that time there has been next to nothing spent on the rolling stock other than essential maintenance.

In 5 years they returned more than Virgin WC did in 17 years!

Some of that money should have been put back into the business to improve it and develop it further improving service, performance etc.

The infrastructure is often the problem on the EC. It wont get any better if VTEC take the same stance as VWC

EC have invested where they could: Fleet wide air con upgrades, fleet wide wifi upgrades/fleet wide catering changes/fleet reliability mods. Each set has been through works at Wabtecc recently for refits/repaints

new trains weren't an option and taking on extra stock didnt seem to be possible. VTEC get access to the super duper new IEP in due course.

Returning more than EC did whilst introducing new rolling stock (And tbh I couldn't give a toss who ordered, who picked it etc etc, VTEC will be the ones to introduce it), upgrading the existing fleet, extending services, introducing new ones etc etc will be damn difficult, however VTEC and their bid think they can do it. We can only hope the DFT have made sure it stacks up so we don't end up with the same thing again.

But VTEC will claim the credit for saving the East Coast and building these super new trains and it wont, strictly, be true. The risk lies entirely with other people not the operator.

If VTEC funded, form their own resources entirely, a new fleet of trains that they sourced, specified and procured i would be very happy to acknowledge this. They aren't. They will simply be the first users of a new train and pay to lease it. That isn't quite the same thing.

And as for your last comment, I merely commented I liked the colour of the train I also have much more to worry about. Find me a company that can carry on returning those levels of cash with very little investment over a sustained period of time as I would like to invest.

They can paint it tope and turquoise for all i care. It is unimportant. There are bigger systemic issues that many posters on here seem to care little about. There is an obsession with frippery at times.

I understand why people are angry BUT that anger should not be directed at the winning bidder (IMO), it should be directed at the politicians who made the decision. They were hell bent on re-privatising it profit or not and if it hadn't been Virgin/Stagecoach it would have been one of the others. The comments on social media are bordering on absurd. The rewards I can understand, I'd say I'll lose about twelve First Class returns a year due to it but ten point lists etc lampooning someone because someone else picked the trains and emissions etc is just ridiculous.

I agree that the government is to blame. They wanted this pushed sale/franchise through before an election to lock their successors into this system and it stinks.

And people ARE angry. Real people who have no real interest in the railways but are VTEC customers are angry and upset that EC was disposed of. VTEC have to acknowledge this fact and win hearts and minds. Not with cheap gimmicks like today but with offering a service to their passengers that exceeds on a regular basis that offered by EC. People will not forgive their failings as they may have forgiven EC.

And for the record we can agree on one thing - that level of return is nigh on impossible, but if they manage it I'll happily write to Messrs Soutar & Branson to congratulate them.

Happily agreed. I will hand deliver my letter. Hopefully it will be third time lucky. The cynic in me doubts it.

 

[ainsworth74]

(imagine how much more that could be if they didn't have to pay shareholders!)

Between the franchises, in a good year, maybe £200m. It isn't pocket change but on the scale of costs on the railway neither is a particularly huge sum, especially on a per franchise basis.

 

[DarloRich]

Between the franchises, in a good year, maybe £200m. It isn't pocket change but on the scale of costs on the railway neither is a particularly huge sum, especially on a per franchise basis.

still extra money to spend on other things.

I think there is more than that sloshing around in various corporate accounting practices that could go back into the pot.

 

[Chrism20]

They've now deleted their Facebook account!

No, it's still there.

Neil

There was a second one appeared yesterday morning but has now disappeared leaving what was originally the EC one.

All the press stuff from today was on the other one but they haven't posted it to the existing one.

Most of the abuse was on the new one though so it doesn't surprise me that it's gone.

 

[Railsigns]

There was a second one appeared yesterday morning but has now disappeared leaving what was originally the EC one.

All the press stuff from today was on the other one but they haven't posted it to the existing one.

Most of the abuse was on the new one though so it doesn't surprise me that it's gone.

The page with the high volume of justified negative remarks has disappeared, although somehow they've managed to transfer c.20,000 'likes' from the old EC page to the new one, which doesn't seem fair at all.