Virgin Trains can't serve coffee without bags?

[Mag_seven]

In GWR first class when they serve you at hot drink at your seat they put a plastic lid on the cup which you then remove seconds later when you start to drink it.

 

[miami]

True. But, as has been demonstrated by several anecdotes posted to this thread, it is a genuine risk.

So basically there are two types of people

First, the 'Elf and safety gone mad' lot, who claim as they have never personally scarred anyone it must be perfectly safe.

Then there's the 'Actually people can get hurt and this is a very effective low impact low cost high benefit-cost-ratio way to reduce the number of permanent injury cases'.

Clearly the first group are the ones in the right. I assume they also don't wear seatbelts (I've never crashed, why do I need a seatbelt? Elf and Safety innit!), are happy working a heights without a harness, think nothing of letting 3 year olds play with fire, etc. :roll:

 

[miami]

In GWR first class when they serve you at hot drink at your seat they put a plastic lid on the cup which you then remove seconds later when you start to drink it.

Ridiculous isn't it, not like anything could happen in that few seconds

I had a large and unbagged cup of coffee spilt over me on a Scotrail train a few years ago.

Luckily it got cooled by the table that it ran across and only made a mess rather than scalding. But I was put to several hours of inconvenience as a result because I had to go back home to change.

Oh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In GWR first class when they serve you at hot drink at your seat they put a plastic lid on the cup which you then remove seconds later when you start to drink it.

I've always been amused by the way Starbucks put the lid on when they give it to you, only for you to immediately remove it to add milk and sugar. Presumably that's to encourage you to only remove the lid when you reach the milk/sugar area.

 

[philthetube]

Risk averse culture. The fear is that you might slop it on someone and burn them and they get sued.

I do recall remonstrating with the virgin on train caterers some years back that it was not environment friendly but they were adamant I had to take the bag.

If the bag is clean and has no stains I tend to fold it back as it was originally and put it back on the pile at the next visit. Sometimes I keep it and use it on a future train.

Gone are the days when I used to burn myself with Maxpax "Coffee" carrying it through the train at the reverse curve just south of Winsford.

Genuine risk should be mitigated against, the annoying this is when rules are made to prevent things which will not happen in a million years, or will only harm the person taking the risk, eg. Climbing a cliff fine, climbing a cliff over a childrens playground, never.

 

[47271]

Oh.

[emoji38] That's exactly what I said at the time.

 

[crehld]

Well this discussion has been incredibly fascinating. But at any point has it been confirmed that official Virgin policy is not to issue coffee unless a paper bag is also provided?

The cup of coffee I was issued with yesterday without a bag (and countless times previous) would suggest no such provision actually exists.

 

[Llanigraham]

True. But, as has been demonstrated by several anecdotes posted to this thread, it is a genuine risk.

And they have been putting the drinks in bags for years!

The whole thread is a story about nothing

 

[Deepgreen]

Well this discussion has been incredibly fascinating. But at any point has it been confirmed that official Virgin policy is not to issue coffee unless a paper bag is also provided?

The cup of coffee I was issued with yesterday without a bag (and countless times previous) would suggest no such provision actually exists.

This is the crux of it - policy or not? Seemingly not.

 

[sheff1]

So basically there are two types of people

First, the 'Elf and safety gone mad' lot, who claim as they have never personally scarred anyone it must be perfectly safe.

Then there's the 'Actually people can get hurt and this is a very effective low impact low cost high benefit-cost-ratio way to reduce the number of permanent injury cases'.

You have missed out the group who assess each situation on its individual merits, rather than adopting an all or nothing approach to everything they encounter.

 

[sheff1]

And they have been putting the drinks in bags for years!

Apparently not:

The cup of coffee I was issued with yesterday without a bag (and countless times previous) would suggest no such provision actually exists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the crux of it - policy or not? Seemingly not.

Or it is policy but often ignored and unenforced, particularly by staff who are sick of passengers arguing about it. (Actually this may be one case where a white lie makes sense - if you say the boiler is broken most people won't argue).

 

[Deepgreen]

Or it is policy but often ignored and unenforced, particularly by staff who are sick of passengers arguing about it. (Actually this may be one case where a white lie makes sense - if you say the boiler is broken most people won't argue).

If it's not a legal requirement (I don't know, but I hope it's not), then if the policy is not liked by so many passengers that it becomes unused, perhaps it should be reviewed. Perhaps offer a bag, rather than insist? Do many passengers, I wonder, accept the bag when they're told they must have it, pay, and them immediately dump the bag on the counter and leave with the coffee?

 

[QueensCurve]

Yes, just to confirm, railway buffet cars have been putting your purchases in small paper carrier bags with handles for around 40 years now, so absolutely nothing to do with blame culture, compensation culture or any other culture. If you've ever tried getting from a Mk1 buffet car back to your seat in a Mk1/early Mk2 coach, you'd know the internal doors weren't powered. You always needed one hand to open them, some were so stiff you needed both. And the riding on a pre-upgrade WCML that had seven bells knocked out of the track by unmodified 86s meant that several hands would have been useful to keep yourself steady even if you had the luxury of Mk3 stock and a Mk3 buffet. Even today, when everything at least nominally has powered doors, it doesn't follow that they are all working properly, and the door open buttons aren't at a height which makes them easy to press while carrying a cup of hot liquid in each hand.

I don't think it is that long - I would place it at about 30y. BR started serving the Maxpax "Coffee" about 1979 or 1980 (recall my late mother refusing to pay unless she got it in proper crockery). I certainly recall carrying the said Maxpax down the trains and spilling the hot stuff on my hand as I went even in Mk3 stock on the Class 86 battered WCML.

 

[QueensCurve]

I had it only the other month, morning rush hour train from BPW to PAd, hoards crowded around the open door on the platform waiting to board, and someone dropped a full cup of coffee just bought from Upper Crust. Lid flew off when it hit the platform, and the coffee went all over the trouser legs of about 4 of us.

My partner recently spilt her tea on my lap on a flight from Manchester to Zurich. I was much more tolerant than had it been my coffee on her lap.

She may have been getting her own back for getting grease from a sausage (Kalb-bratwürst) on her on a train at Zürich Hauptbahnhof some years earlier.

 

[Busaholic]

In GWR first class when they serve you at hot drink at your seat they put a plastic lid on the cup which you then remove seconds later when you start to drink it.

It's when you remove it that you can get scalded too! Bone china should be used - you're paying enough.

 

[QueensCurve]

Well this discussion has been incredibly fascinating. But at any point has it been confirmed that official Virgin policy is not to issue coffee unless a paper bag is also provided?

The cup of coffee I was issued with yesterday without a bag (and countless times previous) would suggest no such provision actually exists.

I am pretty sure it is as I have tried to take one away without the bag and been told that I couldn't. I don't subscribe to the idea that reasonably practicable safety measures shouldn't be taken whilst questioning whether it is really necessary to refuse all sales of tea and coffee because the bags are not available. A happy medium can be struck.

 

[QueensCurve]

You have missed out the group who assess each situation on its individual merits, rather than adopting an all or nothing approach to everything they encounter.

Yes. "Elf and safety" has not gone mad. The question is whether it is reasonably practicable and whether the risk of selling tea and coffee after the bags are all gone is really too great.

 

[QueensCurve]

It's when you remove it that you can get scalded too! Bone china should be used - you're paying enough.

My mother insisted on having her Maxpax "Coffee" poured into the British Rail Crockery - the green stuff.

 

[crehld]

I am pretty sure it is as I have tried to take one away without the bag and been told that I couldn't. I don't subscribe to the idea that reasonably practicable safety measures shouldn't be taken whilst questioning whether it is really necessary to refuse all sales of tea and coffee because the bags are not available. A happy medium can be struck.

A member of staff claiming there is a policy is not the same as there actually being a policy. In the same way that a member of staff claiming there is no policy is not the same as there actually being no policy. I've yet to see any actual evidence of such a company policy, which suggests this discussion is a lot of fuss over not a lot.

On finding a happy medium, I broadly agree. Health and safety legislation is quite clear that individuals are as much responsible for their own health and safety as companies are (at least that's what I was told in the briefing session last week at work). So if a compmay takes reasonable efforts to ensure an individual's health and safety (such as offering tea carrying advice or a paper bag) it's up to the individual to apply this, and the company cannot be held liable.

 

[LordCreed]

Do many passengers, I wonder, accept the bag when they're told they must have it, pay, and them immediately dump the bag on the counter and leave with the coffee?

I think you're missing the point. If you take the coffee out of the bag and then spill it on someone (which is a regular occurrence), then that is entirely your fault. The train operator, and the buffet host, have done everything they can to reduce that risk.

From my experience, the vast majority of people are happy with a bag. Some even go so far as to request one immediately upon ordering. Occasionally you get someone who doesn't want one, but if you tell them it's just the policy then they're pretty happy to just take one.

 

[miami]

I think you're missing the point. If you take the coffee out of the bag and then spill it on someone (which is a regular occurrence), then that is entirely your fault. The train operator, and the buffet host, have done everything they can to reduce that risk.

I would hope very in much in this case that the person who refused to use the provided safety equipment and injurred would be held fully accountable, both civilly (funding the medical treatment, recovery, loss of earnings, and loss of quality of life) and criminally (GBH?)

 

[graham11]

Why not just carry a polythene bag in your pocket just in case they had run out of bags on the train ?

Graham

 

[cjmillsnun]

I expect you would agree with me, however, that if my blind tests were carried out and it turned out that there was no taste difference, then giving people flavoured boiling water to carry through a train is the height of irresponsibility. See our earlier poster who is still nursing their wounds.

I can tell the difference between tea made with boiling water or merely hot water. I can also tell the difference between tea made in a pot from loose leaves and that made in a mug from a tea bag.

Boiling water with loose leaves in a pot gives the best results every time.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think you're missing the point. If you take the coffee out of the bag and then spill it on someone (which is a regular occurrence), then that is entirely your fault. The train operator, and the buffet host, have done everything they can to reduce that risk.

From my experience, the vast majority of people are happy with a bag. Some even go so far as to request one immediately upon ordering. Occasionally you get someone who doesn't want one, but if you tell them it's just the policy then they're pretty happy to just take one.

Perhaps, but then I'm also losing the will to live! When you say "regular occurrence" - does this mean every five minutes or every decade? There is an infinite range within the term. There is also no limit on what the staff can do the minimise the perceived 'safety risk' - double bagging, treble bagging and so on, bagging and boxing and so on. OTT I know, but where does it end? Perhaps it doesn't end and we are destined to be forever more protected against ourselves.

I'm of the old school tribe who take responsibility for their actions, and would concentrate on carrying my boiling drink (lidded) safely along a swaying train, rather than, for example, texting or carrying on a 'phone conversation at the same time.

I can see both sides of the discussion but would prefer not to have additional packaging forced upon me to account for those who need to wrapped in cotton wool to get through life. Hey ho.

 

[Deepgreen]

I would hope very in much in this case that the person who refused to use the provided safety equipment and injurred would be held fully accountable, both civilly (funding the medical treatment, recovery, loss of earnings, and loss of quality of life) and criminally (GBH?)

Apart from anything else, it is refreshing to encounter someone who accords themselves the label of "grumpy" who is in favour of modern life's H&S regime.

I do enjoy the description of a paper bag as "safety equipment".

 

[Deepgreen]

Why not just carry a polythene bag in your pocket just in case they had run out of bags on the train ?

Graham

Ah, but your bag may not comply with the prescribed safety features of the 'Virgin Trains' bag. They're not just any old paper bag, you know!

 

[BestWestern]

I am pretty sure it is as I have tried to take one away without the bag and been told that I couldn't. I don't subscribe to the idea that reasonably practicable safety measures shouldn't be taken whilst questioning whether it is really necessary to refuse all sales of tea and coffee because the bags are not available. A happy medium can be struck.

Well, there isn't a happy medium, is there...? The safety policy says scalding hot liquids need to be dispatched in a bag, so they need to be in a bag. I struggle to see how you'd come up with a workable solution as to why it's ok for someone to throw burning coffee everywhere if the bags aren't available? Might be alright to run with no fire extinguishers a week on tuesday if they aren't available. I mean, nothing much ever actually catches really, does it...??

Safety policies tend to be rather fixed and inflexible, and that is usually the best way!

 

[dosxuk]

I'm of the old school tribe who take responsibility for their actions, and would concentrate on carrying my boiling drink (lidded) safely along a swaying train, rather than, for example, texting or carrying on a 'phone conversation at the same time.

I can see both sides of the discussion but would prefer not to have additional packaging forced upon me to account for those who need to wrapped in cotton wool to get through life. Hey ho.

The thing is, the main reason we have all these H&S laws is to stop the people who say "I'm alright, I'll be careful, I don't need any safety equipment/rules/protection/oversight" or "If it goes wrong, I'll take the blame, no worries" from doing things that damage themselves and others.

A three year old child running into you from behind is going to end up causing you to launch your coffee over a pensioner regardless of how many phone calls you ignore. If you had the bag, there'd be nothing worse than some tutting going on.

 

[Llanigraham]

Perhaps, but then I'm also losing the will to live! When you say "regular occurrence" - does this mean every five minutes or every decade? There is an infinite range within the term. There is also no limit on what the staff can do the minimise the perceived 'safety risk' - double bagging, treble bagging and so on, bagging and boxing and so on. OTT I know, but where does it end? Perhaps it doesn't end and we are destined to be forever more protected against ourselves.

I'm of the old school tribe who take responsibility for their actions, and would concentrate on carrying my boiling drink (lidded) safely along a swaying train, rather than, for example, texting or carrying on a 'phone conversation at the same time.

I can see both sides of the discussion but would prefer not to have additional packaging forced upon me to account for those who need to wrapped in cotton wool to get through life. Hey ho.

It doesn't matter how regular an occurrence it is.
It is a documented fact that it has happened.
It is also a documented fact that carrying a cup of nearly boiling water on an unsteady mode of transport is a safety hazard.
Therefore, by Law, the risk to be mitigated, so you WILL be provided with a bag to carry your cup of nearly boiling liquid.

Do you drive?
Do you wear your seatbelt?
When did you last have an accident?
Perhaps you haven't had an accident in the last 5 years.
Following your "logic" you don't need that seat belt.