Virgin Trains' bizarre priorities - "quiet crockery"

[All Line Rover]

I wrote a few months ago about Virgin (West Coast) Trains' removal of the first class quiet coach. Since the policy was implemented I can count on one hand the number of journeys I have made on reasonably busy trains where Coach H has been as audibly quiet as it used to be, except journeys on those handful of trains where Coach H has not yet had the quiet coach stickers removed.

One thought I have long had about Virgin's first class service is how noisy the crockery is (was). The first class carriages are (were) noticeably quieter at the weekends when the crockery was not used. Had I mentioned this observation on this forum, I'm sure I would have been accused of pedantry. Yet bizarrely, Virgin apparently agree and have recently replaced the first class crockery with "quiet crockery"! They are so proud of this innovation that they plastered the first class carriages with business cards proclaiming it. I will attach a photo of the card when I have the chance.

I agree that "quiet crockery" is a good idea and a neat piece of engineering (the crockery genuinely is almost silent), but I find it bizarre that Virgin Trains considers this to be an urgent priority (along with installing purple spotlights on the Voyager trains) at the same time as they are phasing out the first class (and in the coming months standard class) quiet carriages. I am yet to meet a person who considers rattling crockery to be unimaginably irritating but loud conversations and mobile phone calls to be pleasant background noise.

 

[snail]

{waves hand} Hello! I would put the crockery a close second to window blinds for irritating rattles on a Pendolino. The centre seats are/were the worst by the service point where you get a trolley full of the things. I haven't seen the new replacements but could be a good thing.

As for the quiet coaches, I don't care. There are irritating people in all the coaches, designating a quiet coach just makes it more noticeable when someone is being loud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are not phasing out the Standard quiet coach. What they do seem to have done, though, is made coach J unreservable, which is annoying as now we have seat selection the most desirable seats for single travellers cannot be reserved, and as such (because of their desirability) basically aren't available to anyone not getting on at the terminus.

I do wish they'd convert one of the other coaches to all individual seating on the 1 side. It would be a very popular move.

 

[All Line Rover]

They are not phasing out the Standard quiet coach.

Yes they are, sadly. But I will provide more information in the thread I created a few months ago concerning the potential removal of the standard class quiet coach so that this thread isn't sidetracked.

 

[Philip C]

I wrote a few months ago about Virgin (West Coast) Trains' removal of the first class quiet coach......

......I am yet to meet a person who considers rattling crockery to be unimaginably irritating but loud conversations and mobile phone calls to be pleasant background noise.

Many is the time that I've moved teaspoons on near-by tables so that they don't tremble against cups and saucers, but I would agree that the loss of quiet fellow travellers is, at least, as important. I'm only left with my old fall-back: I never travel without a pair of ear-plugs to hand. Strangely they are more effective in blocking conversation than noisy crockery.

Perhaps Virgin should hand out complimentary ear-plugs, their first class fares should stretch to the expense!

 

[All Line Rover]

What they do seem to have done, though, is made coach J unreservable, which is annoying as now we have seat selection the most desirable seats for single travellers cannot be reserved, and as such (because of their desirability) basically aren't available to anyone not getting on at the terminus.

Do you mean Coach K? If Coach K were reservable there would be nowhere for full-fare passengers to sit on a number of weekday 9-car trains. Coaches J and H tend to be 90% - 100% reserved on most morning southbound trains Monday to Thursday; even those arriving in London around 1pm. The DfT should never have forced Virgin to convert Coach G. The revenue derived from first class fares would pay for additional standard class carriages in no time. Typical DfT short-termism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you mean Coach K? If Coach K were reservable there would be nowhere for full-fare passengers to sit on a number of weekday 9-car trains. Coaches J and H tend to be 90% - 100% reserved on most morning southbound trains Monday to Thursday; even those arriving in London around 1pm. The DfT should never have forced Virgin to convert Coach G. The revenue derived from first class fares would pay for additional standard class carriages in no time. Typical DfT short-termism.

Sorry, yes. I would prefer they had left J or H unreserved instead.

I'd have similarly preferred them to introduce walk-up First Class Off-Peak fares at around 150-170% of the Standard fare on all routes, with the same restrictions as the Standard equivalents, and interavailable on all TOCs i.e. routed Any Permitted. If they did, I'd buy them for most journeys; I already do use Weekend First a fair bit.

Of course, what was *really* needed was *all* Pendolinos extending to 11-car, not just some of them. The 9s are usually busy in Standard as well.

 

[mirodo]

They've done this before on their airline

http://blog.virgin-atlantic.com/t5/Our-Experience/Virgin-Atlantic-s-Whisper-Quiet-Service/ba-p/1485

 

[All Line Rover]

As for that business card (they had about twenty per table in the sugar sachet holder), see the attached image.

They forgot to conclude with the sentence "...especially when the passenger opposite you is talking on their phone for the next two hours".

 

[ScotTrains]

Are they still using actual crockery? I would hate for them to start using plastic cups!!

 

[Radedamer]

Ah, I thought this was a thread about Richard Branson's age. But surely more appropriate to describe him as an old buffer!

 

[All Line Rover]

Are they still using actual crockery? I would hate for them to start using plastic cups!!

Only the saucers have been converted to plastic, although the china cups feel like they are made of plastic. The cutlery remains metal, but the new spoons are so large it's a struggle to fit them in one's mouth.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've noticed that Virgin Trains published a press release about the crockery: https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...-past-with-virgin-trains-new-crockery-1247003.

Virgin said: "Extensive research amongst customers and frontline staff... identified rattling cups and cutlery as a common gripe."

Seriously? According to the MD most passengers couldn't care less about a quiet coach but the cutlery is a 'common gripe' amongst passengers and staff!?

Virgin also said: "We make it a priority to provide our customers with the very best and are committed to improving our services, right down to the teaspoon."

I never realised that getting rid of quiet carriages is an improvement.

What on earth is going through the minds of the managers at Virgin Trains' head office?

Monday: Let's get rid of the first class quiet coach. Our customers won't mind.​

Tuesday: We desperately need to install purple lights on the Voyagers. The more difficult it is to read, the better!​

Wednesday: Our customers and staff are obsessed with rattling crockery. This is now our top priority!​

Thursday: How about getting rid of the standard class quiet coach too?​

Friday: ...​

 

[Starmill]

Two images attached of the new First Class "quiet" mug and side-plate. You can also see the coaster that goes under the glass and the placemats, which share a new design.

They are perfectly quiet. I couldn't agree more with ALR that their priorities are bonkers. However I get around it by not relying on the ability to work on the train, which does annoy me and is of course counter-productive.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I remember NXEC got rid of the saucers on the East Coast also citing noise as the reason. Proper spoons also vanished for a while but they made a reappearance (can't remember if NXEC or EC brought back the spoons, I have my tea black, no sugar so never really looked).

VTEC have gone one further and now (at least on weekday evening services, not tried breakfast since the changes) don't have any cups on the tables. One reason suggest for the change is not everyone drinks hot drinks and those wanting to work may appreciate the cup not being in the way. Oddly enough the sugar container remains on the table whether you want it or not. The more cynical people say it's just to save on washing up.

So in a way it's interesting that VTWC didn't just take the easy route and abolish the saucer altogether. I do think things looked more stylish in the GNER days with a cup and I never noticed the noise. Do you think VTWC should follow VTEC and make cups on demand or would you like to see VTEC use the VTWC style?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two images attached of the new First Class "quiet" mug and side-plate. You can also see the coaster that goes under the glass and the placemats, which share a new design.

They are perfectly quiet. I couldn't agree more with ALR that their priorities are bonkers. However I get around it by not relying on the ability to work on the train, which does annoy me and is of course counter-productive.

The plastic tray thing looks a bit "school dinners" to have the First Class quality about it, I reckon.

 

[HH]

Obviously a quiet day for news...

I'm afraid you guys just don't get Virgin. I'd bet this idea came from their staff; they really do want, get and appreciate staff feedback and have made many changes that started off from a staff suggestion. Also their main focus is on the customer experience. If they are getting rid of quiet coaches you can bet it's because they've done research and found that most people didn't value them. They do a lot of research.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they are getting rid of quiet coaches you can bet it's because they've done research and found that most people didn't value them.

Or that they cause too much conflict, perhaps more likely.

 

[HH]

Or that they cause too much conflict, perhaps more likely.

Quite possibly. Which is always a bad experience...

 

[Clip]

I agree that "quiet crockery" is a good idea and a neat piece of engineering (the crockery genuinely is almost silent), but I find it bizarre that Virgin Trains considers this to be an urgent priority (along with installing purple spotlights on the Voyager trains) at the same time as they are phasing out the first class (and in the coming months standard class) quiet carriages. I am yet to meet a person who considers rattling crockery to be unimaginably irritating but loud conversations and mobile phone calls to be pleasant background noise.

I'm pretty sure they would not have seen it as an urgent priority but implemented it whilst doing regular updating of their catering equipment.

 

[MCSHF007]

The first class quiet coach on a VTEC Mk4 set is always ruined whenever the crew are collecting used crockery and seemingly slamming them into the module in the south end vestibule of Coach K. Bang Crash Wallop.

 

[ScotTrains]

The new tray isn't that bad but I agree, it does look a bit 'school dinners' like. I'm just glad the rest of the crockery is still china, the glass is glass and the cutlery is metal. Really don't see why they had to change it. Personally, as a frequent leisure traveller, I quite like the coach sounding like a coffee shop/ restaurant, I think it's part of the first class experience.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm afraid you guys just don't get Virgin. I'd bet this idea came from their staff; they really do want, get and appreciate staff feedback and have made many changes that started off from a staff suggestion. Also their main focus is on the customer experience. If they are getting rid of quiet coaches you can bet it's because they've done research and found that most people didn't value them. They do a lot of research.

If I had the choice between 95% quiet journeys and 5% journeys involving a 'quiet word' (which was typically the case on peak services), and almost 100% noisy journeys, I would opt for the former. If the former is not available I would opt to fly for journeys in excess of 60 minutes. Unfortunately flights are not available from London City to Manchester but they are available to Glasgow and Edinburgh where, even when booking at short notice, prices are comparable with Virgin's peak time fares.

If Virgin's management are so confident in the accuracy of their research they should go ahead and publish the results. The franchise has received enough money from the taxpayer to justify disclosing the information when asked to do so by an MP.

 

[Starmill]

The tray doesn't look that tacky when you're sat with it on the table and not upturned inspecting it as I was. That was just a bit of research because I love you all so much

 

[HH]

If I had the choice between 95% quiet journeys and 5% journeys involving a 'quiet word' (which was typically the case on peak services), and almost 100% noisy journeys, I would opt for the former. If the former is not available I would opt to fly for journeys in excess of 60 minutes. Unfortunately flights are not available from London City to Manchester but they are available to Glasgow and Edinburgh where, even when booking at short notice, prices are comparable with Virgin's peak time fares.

If Virgin's management are so confident in the accuracy of their research they should go ahead and publish the results. The franchise has received enough money from the taxpayer to justify disclosing the information when asked to do so by an MP.

1. What you prefer is not necessarily what the other 999,999 passengers prefer.
2. Any research is commercially confidential.
3. The franchise pays a premium and has done for years.

Anything else you need educating on?

 

[All Line Rover]

1. What you prefer is not necessarily what the other 999,999 passengers prefer.
2. Any research is commercially confidential.
3. The franchise pays a premium and has done for years.

Anything else you need educating on?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the questionable premium payments that the franchise has made in its later years come nowhere near the ongoing taxpayer-funded cost of upgrading and maintaining the infrastructure which the franchise profits from: https://www.nao.org.uk/report/the-modernisation-of-the-west-coast-main-line/.

As for the idea that all research carried out by a company granted a monopoly to profit from stated-owned infrastructure is 'commercially confidential' whatever it relates to, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[DarloRich]

Currently speeding north by virgin fc - environment v pleasant and much more quiet that second class quiet coach or not!

The crokery has not rattled once so thier design seems to work and is obviously quite clever

However staff have the absolute temerity to dare speak to each other within ear shot of my seat. I know ought to thrash them with my belt but itnis Christmas after all!

1. What you prefer is not necessarily what the other 999,999 passengers prefer.
2. Any research is commercially confidential.
3. The franchise pays a premium and has done for years.

Anything else you need educating on?

This! I find it odd so many posters on this board confuse a quiet coach with a mobile library in which any niaie is prohibited - it never has been that despite your clear wish it was thus!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the questionable premium payments that the franchise has made in its later years come nowhere near the ongoing taxpayer-funded cost of upgrading and maintaining the infrastructure which the franchise profits from: https://www.nao.org.uk/report/the-modernisation-of-the-west-coast-main-line/.

As for the idea that all research carried out by a company granted a monopoly to profit from stated-owned infrastructure is 'commercially confidential' whatever it relates to, you are entitled to your opinion.

What on earth are you on about:roll:

 

[driver_m]

Currently speeding north by virgin fc - environment v pleasant and much more quiet that second class quiet coach or not!

The crokery has not rattled once so thier design seems to work and is obviously quite clever

However staff have the absolute temerity to dare speak to each other within ear shot of my seat. I know ought to thrash them with my belt but itnis Christmas after all!




This! I find it odd so many posters on this board confuse a quiet coach with a mobile library in which any niaie is prohibited - it never has been that despite your clear wish it was thus!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What on earth are you on about:roll:

I could tell you many tales from our train managers where they have been requested to tell babies to stop crying, people to stop talking, some people actually do think it should be like a library. And as for the OP's thing with the cutlery, it actually needs replacing after a while because the relentless dishwashing wrecks the cutlery, as you'll know if you use one at home. So I don't see what the problem is with replacing it. It has to be done.

 

[fowler9]

I would suggest that anyone that wants to travel in a silent coach should probably choose another form of transport. Other than when someone is having a loud mobile phone conversation right next to me on a Pendolino I can't really make out the regular humdrum above the noise of the air conditioning. Even the "noisy" coaches are quieter than the office I work in. This is purely a personal observation and not my judgement on anyone elses experience of life. I work in a very noisy office and it is far from perfect.

 

[Clip]

I could tell you many tales from our train managers where they have been requested to tell babies to stop crying, people to stop talking, some people actually do think it should be like a library. And as for the OP's thing with the cutlery, it actually needs replacing after a while because the relentless dishwashing wrecks the cutlery, as you'll know if you use one at home. So I don't see what the problem is with replacing it. It has to be done.

Don't be silly, the OP has a silent dishwasher that doesn't damage the crockery and if it did he would just pay someone to wash it cheaper by hand. In silence.

 

[ScotTrains]

Perhaps Virgin could have a coach with first class compartments for people who want more privacy/ less noise. That way there is no need for cheap looking quiet plastic cookery. We can continue with proper plates, glasses and cutlery!