Virgin to Rebid for WCML Franchise

[asylumxl]

Basically VRG are more crafty than the DfT, and the DfT don't like being outsmarted, despite proving their stupidity regularly.

 

[me123]

Well, I hope Virgin win. I like Virgin, the public seem to like them, and their satisfaction ratings are generally very high (90% of passengers were satisfied according to the National Passenger Survey). They have been part of the radical transformation of the WCML, generally for the better (although I am fully aware that they've been prone to exaggeration above...). And, as we've seen over the past few months, Virgin have come up with some more rather innovative ideas to further improve West Coast travel. OK, they may not get the opportunity to deliver on these, and some of them may prove impossible, but they've got the drive and ideas that a lot of other companies don't seem to have.

Good luck to them. I hope the DfT make their decision based on the facts and the case Virgin makes, and not based on "we don't like Branson".

 

[tbtc]

It's hardly news, is it? TOC wishes to bid for new tender?

It'd be news if they said they *didn't* want to rebid, of course.

As for the speculation, that's all a lot of it is. We don't *know* what the relationships really are and whether personal things would affect decisions like these. A few years ago National Express seemed to be flavour of the month with franchises. Things change.

 

[ph1985]

As said before Virgin did not buy the trains the Rosco did.

Also when the franchise was let the agreement was that the winner (Virgin) would arrange to procure (through the Rosco) new 140mph tilting trains.

So although I hope Virgin retain the franchise do not believe everything that they say.

point taken, but they still have many more ideas on how to improve the railways even if the DfT refuse most of them. All you hear out of the other operators is how much they want to increase fares by.

 

[junglejames]

I like Bransons way of thinking, and he seems to have been successful on the WCML. However we have very very different tastes in trains!!!
I rate standard class on the Pendolino in my bottom 3 in the UK. I have never refused to travel on a train before, except for one time I stepped onboard a pendo. I never even bothered sitting down it was so bad. Seats looked mega uncomfortable, interior was dark and dingy, and overall it wasnt far off a plastic tin can. On the other hand, the Mk 2s and 3s, prior to the anialation by FGW etc, were up in my top 1. So for this reason I have boycotted pendos ever since they came out. So would i want Virgin to keep the franchise? Well unless somebody else promises to refurbish the pendos and make them more comfortable, then yes, because Virgin are very popular by all accounts.

I will say one nice thing about the interior of a pendo though. 1st class seems to be just about on a par with standard class in a Mk3 (free food not being taken into account).

 

[Greenback]

point taken, but they still have many more ideas on how to improve the railways even if the DfT refuse most of them. All you hear out of the other operators is how much they want to increase fares by.

So Virgin have never increased any fares then, or changed any restrictions to reduce the numbe rof trains available on off peak tickets?

I'd be quite happy to see the back of Virgin, but then again I'd be happy to see the back of the entire franchising system. I don't think there's a great deal of difference between the different TOC's at all, apart from livery and catering policy.

 

[BR 1979]

So Virgin have never increased any fares then, or changed any restrictions to reduce the numbe rof trains available on off peak tickets?

I'd be quite happy to see the back of Virgin, but then again I'd be happy to see the back of the entire franchising system. I don't think there's a great deal of difference between the different TOC's at all, apart from livery and catering policy.

+1 to those sentiments.

All Limited and Public Listed Companies first responsibility is to shareholders. It is written into law. Pity a few Virgin employees haven't told us what they think of Virgin Trains.
For many years after the inception of the franchises the staff (especially station staff) were very unhappy with working practices and the 'new' managements attitude but that seems the case across the rail industry in general.

Me Branson wants to remember a few of his own words and travel on some of his services himself (maybe even be forced to stand for hours like the rest of us)

Now that Virgin itself is a huge global empire, Branson expects governments to kill unfair practices which stifle competition. He exhorted politicians to come down heavily on erring companies, however mighty and politically connected they may be, to protect the interests of the consumer.

 

[Failed Unit]

point taken, but they still have many more ideas on how to improve the railways even if the DfT refuse most of them. All you hear out of the other operators is how much they want to increase fares by.

Virgin are very good at increasing fares, have you not heard thier proposals to price people off the trains directly after the peak restriction finish?

 

[j0hn0]

I like Bransons way of thinking, and he seems to have been successful on the WCML. However we have very very different tastes in trains!!!
I rate standard class on the Pendolino in my bottom 3 in the UK. I have never refused to travel on a train before, except for one time I stepped onboard a pendo. I never even bothered sitting down it was so bad. Seats looked mega uncomfortable, interior was dark and dingy, and overall it wasnt far off a plastic tin can. On the other hand, the Mk 2s and 3s, prior to the anialation by FGW etc, were up in my top 1. So for this reason I have boycotted pendos ever since they came out. So would i want Virgin to keep the franchise? Well unless somebody else promises to refurbish the pendos and make them more comfortable, then yes, because Virgin are very popular by all accounts.

I will say one nice thing about the interior of a pendo though. 1st class seems to be just about on a par with standard class in a Mk3 (free food not being taken into account).

This old chestnut

Standard class seats are just too narrow. I am an average size guy, medium to stocky build yet my shoulders do not fit on the pendo standard class seats.

Basically, any man/woman of a decent/normal size cannot sit comfotably on a pendo.

But I really like em engineering wise.

 

[Greenback]

Virgin are very good at increasing fares, have you not heard thier proposals to price people off the trains directly after the peak restriction finish?

I forgot to mention the ALR restrictions - only introduced to stop those in the know from undercutting the high fares VT (and others) charge!

There is no difference between VT and any other TOC in this respect, they all want the same thing,

 

[Failed Unit]

hopefully they keep it, seeing as they're the only operator who didn't just sit with inherited/ancient trains with a new lick of paint to protect profit margins and instead actually went out and bought new trains.

I always love it when people come out with statements like this, lets have a look at a few operators.

GNER - Imaging the outcry if they had change all thier rolling stock in 1996? Waste our money would be the outcry and many people prefer the old mk3s and mk4s to the pendos.

Anglia seems to be very happy with the clapped out Mk3 and 90s.

Scotrail - They did invest more in rolling stock but this was really for growth, in fact most of the regional railways operators had fairly young rolling stock at the start of privatisation. Central trains was in the same position, thier oldest stock if I recall was at the time the 10 year old 150's

Going further south most 3rd rail operators replaced nearly everything. Again you would not expect SWT to replace the 158s? or South Eastern to replace the 465s?

Likewise north of the thames there is nothing wrong with the 313s or 317s!

The main reason that WCML needed to change the rolling stock was that the 90s and mk3s were not compatable with the 125mph running and tilt. We will never know what other bidders proposed for the WCML, but I am fairly certain most of them would have had an element of new rolling stock in it!

When you talk about investment take a look at the top 10 worse stations in the UK, how many of them belong to Virgin? What are they in the list is? Why did GNER feel it was worth investing in Newark North Gate but Virgin didn't feel it was worth investing in Warrington Bank Quay?

 

[DarloRich]

And Virgin didnt pay for them - despite what they say!

 

[Geezertronic]

This old chestnut

Standard class seats are just too narrow. I am an average size guy, medium to stocky build yet my shoulders do not fit on the pendo standard class seats.

Basically, any man/woman of a decent/normal size cannot sit comfotably on a pendo.

But I really like em engineering wise.

Your desciption fits me as well and I don't have any problems

 

[tbtc]

And Virgin didnt pay for them - despite what they say!

Technically no TOC has paid for new stock, afaik (the only stock "purchased" were the old HSTs which Grand Central and First Great Western own)

If we are going to dismiss Virgin's brand new fleet of trains (meaning improved frequencies etc) because they aren't "owned" then we should dismiss every other TOC which has introduced new trans (because they aren't *owned*), surely?

 

[swt_passenger]

Technically no TOC has paid for new stock, afaik (the only stock "purchased" were the old HSTs which Grand Central and First Great Western own)

If we are going to dismiss Virgin's brand new fleet of trains (meaning improved frequencies etc) because they aren't "owned" then we should dismiss every other TOC which has introduced new trans (because they aren't *owned*), surely?

I certainly wasn't criticisng the introduction of the trains, I'm criticising Virgin being praised specifically for buying them. I strongly suspect that whoever had won the WCML franchise 15 years ago would have replaced the stock sooner or later.

If people posted that 'Virgin succesfully organised the replacement of their entire fleet', I'd have no problems with that at all...

 

[Zoe]

I doubt all the franchise bids for XC and WC back in the 1990s contained proposals to replace the entire fleet of trains though. It would be interesting to know what Virgin planned for EC back in the 1990s had they won.

 

[sprinterguy]

I doubt all the franchise bids for XC and WC back in the 1990s contained proposals to replace the entire fleet of trains though. It would be interesting to know what Virgin planned for EC back in the 1990s had they won.

I have a feeling that a proposal for complete fleet replacement was included in the franchise agreement, as there were certainly CGI mock ups of the new West Coast trains cropping up all over by 1998.

I don't know what Virgin would have done with East Coast if they had successfully won the franchise in 1996, but their 2001 bid included promises of sections of new build High Speed line in various areas of the route and general line speed increases. If they'd actually proved capable of pulling it off, a new fleet of trains would have been forthcoming.

 

[Mr Spock]

This thread seems to becoming repetitive now as the same questions and answers keep appearing.

 

[tbtc]

I have a feeling that a proposal for complete fleet replacement was included in the franchise agreement, as there were certainly CGI mock ups of the new West Coast trains cropping up all over by 1998.

I don't know what Virgin would have done with East Coast if they had successfully won the franchise in 1996, but their 2001 bid included promises of sections of new build High Speed line in various areas of the route and general line speed increases. If they'd actually proved capable of pulling it off, a new fleet of trains would have been forthcoming.

...and, frustratingly, it'd have been up and running by now (if they had won the bid and it had been built as planned)...

We might not need to be having HS2 debates as we'd have a brand new ECML bypassing Welwyn/ Peterborough/ Durham/ Morpeth etc...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I certainly wasn't criticisng the introduction of the trains, I'm criticising Virgin being praised specifically for buying them. I strongly suspect that whoever had won the WCML franchise 15 years ago would have replaced the stock sooner or later.

If people posted that 'Virgin succesfully organised the replacement of their entire fleet', I'd have no problems with that at all...

You're right, it's just that people don't seem to have the same problem with statements like "National Express bought the 222s for Midland Mainline" or "First bought the 175s for FNW" - which are equally "false".

I suppose the difference may be down to the way that the 390s are synonymous in the UK with Virgin (like the suggestion that Branson specified small windows himself - nonsense, but often repeated), whereas nobody suggests National Express were involved in any "design" when taking on their 170s (or other stock)

 

[Zoe]

...and, frustratingly, it'd have been up and running by now (if they had won the bid and it had been built as planned)...

I seem to remember Virgin got to the preferred bidder stage in that franchise, this was when long 20 year frannchises were going to be granted. There were also quite a few positive plans for the railways. Then we had Hatfield and we all know the story from then.

 

[tbtc]

I seem to remember Virgin got to the preferred bidder stage in that franchise, this was when long 20 year frannchises were going to be granted. There were also quite a few positive plans for the railways. Then we had Hatfield and we all know the story from then.

The "what if Hatfield hadn't happened" idea is one I've thought about quite a lot.

 

[WestCoast]

I would be happy to see Virgin Rail Group rewarded the franchise. I believe they are a very successful Intercity operator, yes they have faults, but which franchise does not have faults? I don't like some aspects of their fare structure which pushes the peak periods to exceed norms.
They are also a shrewd operator and this has not always boded well with the DfT.

Even the beloved GNER had its fair share of faults :roll: (I really liked GNER by the way). GNER and Virgin are a world apart though, but I would argue they are/were the strongest brands. GNER went for glamour and heritage, while Virgin Trains went with a cheery, fun and futuristic image (in keeping with the Virgin brand I suppose).

Virgin Trains have a very strong brand recognition, often people who very rarely travel by train know of them. I think this is partly due to the fact that "Virgin" is a more identifiable and distinct brand than First, Stagecoach, Arriva and NatEx could ever hope to be.

Even so, if Virgin don't win I really do wonder who will.

 

[MCR247]

I hope Virgin keep it, they aren't that bad IMO and if they do keep it, we won't need to see money wasted on rebranding trains, new uniform, refurbishments, new station signs, new logos on FC lounges etc and all of the other rubbish

 

[Failed Unit]

I hope Virgin keep it, they aren't that bad IMO and if they do keep it, we won't need to see money wasted on rebranding trains, new uniform, refurbishments, new station signs, new logos on FC lounges etc and all of the other rubbish

Maybe they should do a scotrail and not let the operator brand it whoever gets it. Better for everyone!

 

[dk1]

Maybe they should do a scotrail and not let the operator brand it whoever gets it. Better for everyone!

I thought that is why East Coast now has base silver. All ex-Intercity operators would have a similar sheme with company branding. Virgin practically have this livery anyway.

 

[Trog]

Your desciption fits me as well and I don't have any problems

Check carefully next time you travel,you are probably sitting with each buttock on a seperate seat.

My self I am medium sized, and have to sit skewed sideways to avoid leaning on the person next to me, due to the narrrow seats. So I am always glad to see the pretendolino pull in.

 

[Geezertronic]

Check carefully next time you travel,you are probably sitting with each buttock on a seperate seat.

My self I am medium sized, and have to sit skewed sideways to avoid leaning on the person next to me, due to the narrrow seats. So I am always glad to see the pretendolino pull in.

I always travel in the peaks so it is extremely rare not to have anyone sitting next to me. Only time I usually have a space issue is if there is a man (or woman) who is larger than me sitting next to me

I would also like to see VT retain the franchise, then commit to extending all of the 390s to 11 cars which is something I believe I have heard them mention as a franchise extension commitment? While they are at it, they can order some more 390s to use on the Birmingham-Scotland services

 

[YorkshireBear]

i only get problems with length im average the other way, im not tall but after some issues in early teens my legs struggle to stay bent for long and rarely fit in anyway.... i find voyagers comfortable for me legs aswell as 185's

makes my journey to plymouth saturday morning (03:09 depature via manchester and birmingham) little less daunting for my joints...

if they keep it (which at moment i would like to see) id like to see all pendilinos 11 car with a few more ordered by virgin or ROSCO just to try and eleminate as many voyagers as possible, how many do you think they actually need if they were to keep holyhead and chester? how man 5 car sets could transfer to XC which would almost make them a better operator overnight....

 

[BrummyBoy]

Agree with several others, i would like to see Virgin keep the franchise, in my opinion they are one of the UKs best operators

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think there present performance is good enough. They have a poor investment record on things like stations and on train facilities. I mean not having the ability to purchase stuff from the shop is well debated on here. But equally I wouldnt be upset if they win it on merit of the future rather than past performance. To me national express is the one we don't want.