Virgin roster

[djsmith200]

who do you work for class2ldn?

 

[Class2ldn]

Thameslink

 

[Bromley boy]

Just so people are aware...... there are people at Virgin who wouldn't touch the long weekend every 3rd week pattern with a barge pole and I dare say they have families and private lives too..... just a thought.

I for one have worked to BOTH patterns now and can safely say I've felt just as tired and spent just as many days passing my family like ships in the night on the 3 week cycle as I have on this....... I've also felt just as flogged going into a long weekend off as I have on this too.

Neither shift pattern is a paradise..... the important thing is the work load whilst you're in and the family time when you're off...... on my new pattern I feel as though I'm doing half the workload...... I'm home at more sociable times so seeing more of my family during work times and now I get a whole week off where I can take and pick the lad up from school...... help him with his homework....... take him on longer holidays without worrying about using ad hoc rest days etc....... I'm in much better moods at home and in work..... and I've received an improved salary for the privilege!...... oh and I've NO split rest days either ��

Horses for courses obviously but having now done both patterns it's a no brainer for me!

Is VTWC going to move to a 4 day week, to your knowledge?

 

[Bromley boy]

This: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142765



Well, I could give you the numbers...but you'll have to do the math! Always difficult to do such economic comparisons...

T&C is another big topic, I could talk a bit about the easy part: rosters. They vary quite a bit between Depots, but the base is everywhere an annual base roster, where you know when all your RD are and for I'd say about 60% if you are on lates or earlies shifts (they can obviously change but mostly don't).

There's no sunday in or out, it's considered just like any day of the week and there's not really a "week". Usually a generic pattern of # days off - # days on is extablished and then repeated for the rest of the year, with exceptions.

For example, we have a "4-2" pattern, which means that I'll generally do 4 on and two off but sometimes have maybe only 1 RD instead of 2 or work 5 days instead of 4.

Monday early
Tuesday early
Wednesday early
Thursday early
Friday RD
Saturday RD
Sunday late

Monday late
Tuesday late
Wednesday late
Friday RD
Saturday late
Sunday late

Monday late
Tuesday RD
Wednesday RD
Etc...

Other Depots prefer to work 5-6 days in a row and have more RD.

What's a usual number of total hours worked each year for a driver in the UK?




I'm sorry, I should have titled this "Generic roster knowledge" or something like that.

We work 35 hours per week on average, over 4 day week so averages 8:45 per shift. Assuming 6 weeks annual leave it works out as 1610 hours per year spent at work.

Obviously the amount of time actually spent driving depends on the work content of the shift and is very variable.

If you don't mind my asking what is the salary for a driver in Switzerland? I appreciate it's very difficult to do economic comparisons between different countries.

 

[Val3ntine]

Sorry but there's not many who wouldn't like the 4 day week.
Why would you want to work 5/6 days as standard.
Il let others decide why anyone at virgin wouldn't want a 4 day week like most other tocs
Only time I'm doing that is when I'm working rest days so I'm earning extra for it anyway.
Be interesting to see your roster as if I'm correct your at Wolverhampton and after seeing one of their roster patterns before it didn't change my mind
Obviously all depots are different but on my toc every depot works to the same rest day dependant on the shift so for me it's great, I know my friends on the same shifts at other depots have the same time off as me.
To me the weekends are more important which may not be as important to others which may be why the roster suits you.
I wouldn't even think about going to a company where Sundays are compulsory now, haven't worked one in 4 years and don't plan to now.

Quick question about this sundays included/excluded policy. If sundays are not compulsory and a sunday is included in your line for the week, do you essentially not work it and only work 3 days in that week? E.G rostered Sun,mon,Tue,Wed to work and simply just choose not to work the sunday. Or would you for example have to opt to work either the Thurs,Fri or Sat which were your originally rostered days off as an exchange?

 

[Tyrion]

Quick question about this sundays included/excluded policy. If sundays are not compulsory and a sunday is included in your line for the week, do you essentially not work it and only work 3 days in that week? E.G rostered Sun,mon,Tue,Wed to work and simply just choose not to work the sunday. Or would you for example have to opt to work either the Thurs,Fri or Sat which were your originally rostered days off as an exchange?

No is answer to your first question, people are on here spouting about a four day week when it is not a four day week. If you have to work your commited Sundays then you still do your full week of work plus your Sunday.
Only depots with Sundays inside and have 156 rest days can truly say they work a four day week or those that are excempt from Sundays under current arrangements.
To say Sundays outside with long weekend off every three weeks is "Quality" time off is a fallacy, finishing on a Satirday evening/Sunday Morning then back in at 4 am ish on Monday where it takes days to recover is not a good system and not quality time off!
Quicker all TOCs and Aslef stop arsing about and get it inside properly the better

 

[Class2ldn]

No is answer to your first question, people are on here spouting about a four day week when it is not a four day week. If you have to work your commited Sundays then you still do your full week of work plus your Sunday.
Only depots with Sundays inside and have 156 rest days can truly say they work a four day week or those that are excempt from Sundays under current arrangements.
To say Sundays outside with long weekend off every three weeks is "Quality" time off is a fallacy, finishing on a Satirday evening/Sunday Morning then back in at 4 am ish on Monday where it takes days to recover is not a good system and not quality time off!
Quicker all TOCs and Aslef stop arsing about and get it inside properly the better

Our Sundays are completely outside, no commitment to work it.
It was voted in to the last pay deal but from what i hear the company had no idea how to implement it and it's quite possible it will be scrapped.
We also don't swap over on weekends.
We swap over on the Wednesday and Thursday rds so 2 whole days before earlies.
Only time it's not whole days is nights.
The fact out of 3 Saturdays we have 1 late, 1 early and the other one part of our long weekend means its pretty appealing to most.
The early Saturday is nice because you don't have to work Sundays so if you're finished by lunchtime then you're pretty much having that weekend off and then the next one is the long weekend so really 2 weekend off in 3 seems pretty good to me.

 

[red2005]

No is answer to your first question, people are on here spouting about a four day week when it is not a four day week. If you have to work your commited Sundays then you still do your full week of work plus your Sunday.
Only depots with Sundays inside and have 156 rest days can truly say they work a four day week or those that are excempt from Sundays under current arrangements.
To say Sundays outside with long weekend off every three weeks is "Quality" time off is a fallacy, finishing on a Satirday evening/Sunday Morning then back in at 4 am ish on Monday where it takes days to recover is not a good system and not quality time off!
Quicker all TOCs and Aslef stop arsing about and get it inside properly the better

Agreed.

 

[Val3ntine]

Ahh right. I think I kinnnnnndddd of understand now. Thanks guys

 

[axlecounter]

Ours is always 12hrs minimum when driving. 11hrs when not safety critical. Still, getting the bare minimum between shifts is a killer.

Sure, especially when this gets in the way of sleep and rest, like finish at 3p.m. and start the next day at 3a.m. :eek:

TOC's do have trains on Sundays but the Sundays outside the working week is historical. There are plenty of occasions where the TOC has to cancel services because not enough Drivers volunteer for the Sunday.

Ah, well...WTF This would be quite unpopular over here, to put it mildly...

Just so people are aware...... there are people at Virgin who wouldn't touch the long weekend every 3rd week pattern with a barge pole and I dare say they have families and private lives too..... just a thought.

I for one have worked to BOTH patterns now and can safely say I've felt just as tired and spent just as many days passing my family like ships in the night on the 3 week cycle as I have on this....... I've also felt just as flogged going into a long weekend off as I have on this too.

Neither shift pattern is a paradise..... the important thing is the work load whilst you're in and the family time when you're off...... on my new pattern I feel as though I'm doing half the workload...... I'm home at more sociable times so seeing more of my family during work times and now I get a whole week off where I can take and pick the lad up from school...... help him with his homework....... take him on longer holidays without worrying about using ad hoc rest days etc....... I'm in much better moods at home and in work..... and I've received an improved salary for the privilege!...... oh and I've NO split rest days either ��

Horses for courses obviously but having now done both patterns it's a no brainer for me!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that what you're saying is that your workload is less than at your previous TOC and that's actually what you're happy about, not specifically the shift pattern compared to your previous one?

I wouldn't even think about going to a company where Sundays are compulsory now, haven't worked one in 4 years and don't plan to now.

So, who does generally work Sundays in TOCs where it isn't compulsory? Those that want/need more money? Without family?

 

[Class2ldn]

People who want the money.
You get rostered them but you can opt out if need be or work it for extra

 

[red2005]

No is answer to your first question, people are on here spouting about a four day week when it is not a four day week. If you have to work your commited Sundays then you still do your full week of work plus your Sunday.
Only depots with Sundays inside and have 156 rest days can truly say they work a four day week or those that are excempt from Sundays under current arrangements.
To say Sundays outside with long weekend off every three weeks is "Quality" time off is a fallacy, finishing on a Satirday evening/Sunday Morning then back in at 4 am ish on Monday where it takes days to recover is not a good system and not quality time off!
Quicker all TOCs and Aslef stop arsing about and get it inside properly the better

Sure, especially when this gets in the way of sleep and rest, like finish at 3p.m. and start the next day at 3a.m. :eek:




Ah, well...WTF This would be quite unpopular over here, to put it mildly...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that what you're saying is that your workload is less than at your previous TOC and that's actually what you're happy about, not specifically the shift pattern compared to your previous one?


So, who does generally work Sundays in TOCs where it isn't compulsory? Those that want/need more money? Without family?

I'm more than happy with both mate!...... can plan my family and social time in advance just as easily with this shift pattern as I could with the 3 week/ long weekend pattern. Just boils down to whatever your interests outside of the workplace are and how often they come around I suppose.

For example if you rigidly have certain things planned every 3rd weekend then the week off every 4th /5th probably isn't going to be as attractive for you..... me personally..... I'd rather have this........ I've gone from 3 weeks of flogging going into 5 days off to a nice workload into a week off....... but like I've always said..... purely an individual thing

 

[axlecounter]

We work 35 hours per week on average, over 4 day week so averages 8:45 per shift. Assuming 6 weeks annual leave it works out as 1610 hours per year spent at work.

Obviously the amount of time actually spent driving depends on the work content of the shift and is very variable.

If you don't mind my asking what is the salary for a driver in Switzerland? I appreciate it's very difficult to do economic comparisons between different countries.

Well, it varies a lot obviously. First of all, I'm not sure if it's common there too, train drivers have usually a salary that evolves each year a bit and goes from a min to a max in a determinated period of time.

I for one, in a small regional SBB-partner TOC, I started at around 65kCHF and now after 7 years of driving I'm at 81kCHF, aiming for the maximum in 3 years, which is 88k.
Those working at SBB have different T&Cs and a much more complicated salaries system. You can enter at around the same, 65kCHF but in 20 years go up to a (more hypotetical than real) 118000CHF. I'd expect to be at around 95k in 15 years. But then they have all sort of "fine tuning" instruments over your yearly salary which can vary a lot, because of experience, incidents of all sort, whatever...

From the above gross numbers you have to substract around 10% or more of various deductions and another good 10% in taxes.


Now you tell me how this compares to the UK salaries.


Oh and I forgot: 1610 hours? WTF #2 We are now at 2000hr at work per year... I'm going to practice my english fluency and run over there!

 

[Bromley boy]

Well, it varies a lot obviously. First of all, I'm not sure if it's common there too, train drivers have usually a salary that evolves each year a bit and goes from a min to a max in a determinated period of time.

I for one, in a small regional SBB-partner TOC, I started at around 65kCHF and now after 7 years of driving I'm at 81kCHF, aiming for the maximum in 3 years, which is 88k.
Those working at SBB have different T&Cs and a much more complicated salaries system. You can enter at around the same, 65kCHF but in 20 years go up to a (more hypotetical than real) 118000CHF. I'd expect to be at around 95k in 15 years. But then they have all sort of "fine tuning" instruments over your yearly salary which can vary a lot, because of experience, incidents of all sort, whatever...

From the above gross numbers you have to substract around 10% or more of various deductions and another good 10% in taxes.


Now you tell me how this compares to the UK salaries.


Oh and I forgot: 1610 hours? WTF #2 We are now at 2000hr at work per year... I'm going to practice my english fluency and run over there!

Thanks that's very interesting. I'd say that compares pretty favourably to the UK salaries, although you work more hours so perhaps it's less favourable when compared on a hourly pay basis.

81CHF is around £61k which would put you comfortably at the top end of UK driver pay.

Most UK TOCs pay between £50-60k, some a little more. Eurostar are top of the tree, paying a basic of around £67k.

The salary is roughly the same all over the UK but clearly costs of living vary massively - property in the Southeast and London in particular is very expensive.

From what I've seen of Switzerland, it's a clean, picturesque,
civilised country. I wouldn't rush to the U.K., I'm afraid you might be disappointed!

 

[ComUtoR]

No is answer to your first question, people are on here spouting about a four day week when it is not a four day week. If you have to work your commited Sundays then you still do your full week of work plus your Sunday.

My TOC is Sundays inside and I only every work a 4 day week. 3 Rest days per week on every line. We have a true 4 day week.

Our average turn length is 8.24 This is constrained by terms and conditions and where the turn lengths have a specified minimum. As I understand it the average turn length can't go above this hard limit any-more.

35hr week x 52 weeks = 1820 base roster hours. Again this is highly constrained by the rostering principles. My link has 2,200+ hours in total but the average weekly hours must still be no more than 35hrs The thing is, you almost never work the maximum number of hours per year. We had a small blip a few years back but the current terms and conditions as designed to prevent excess hours worked each year. Its getting tighter and tighter each roster change but it will cap out eventually. As Bromley Boy points out take off leave and then take off training days etc and your never gonna work it.

 

[Tyrion]

My TOC is Sundays inside and I only every work a 4 day week. 3 Rest days per week on every line. We have a true 4 day week.

Our average turn length is 8.24 This is constrained by terms and conditions and where the turn lengths have a specified minimum. As I understand it the average turn length can't go above this hard limit any-more.

35hr week x 52 weeks = 1820 base roster hours. Again this is highly constrained by the rostering principles. My link has 2,200+ hours in total but the average weekly hours must still be no more than 35hrs The thing is, you almost never work the maximum number of hours per year. We had a small blip a few years back but the current terms and conditions as designed to prevent excess hours worked each year. Its getting tighter and tighter each roster change but it will cap out eventually. As Bromley Boy points out take off leave and then take off training days etc and your never gonna work it.

Yeah that is a true 4 day week, if Sundays are outside and are commited then that is not a true 4 day week!
Are your 3 rest days always grouped together so no short turnaround times from
Lates to early?

 

[ComUtoR]

Are your 3 rest days always grouped together so no short turnaround times from
Lates to early?

Not all grouped and its a bit of a bone of contention between depots. I wish they were but we still get floating single days. Mostly you will get two together plus the floating odd one. Typically this is the Sunday as there are less Sunday only diagrams.

The turn around times are again something restricted by T&C's We do have a few 12hr minimums between turns, just not many.

We are restricted to : Friday late > Monday early (44hrs) Saturday > Monday (32hrs) (29 by local agreement) Sunday > Monday can be 12hrs. Sunday is an odd day as you can be early or late shift. Our shifts change Saturday/Sunday and as I stated you get early/late alternating weeks. Lates to earlies and vice versa is generally ok with just a few rogue lines.

I don't mind our roster but it needs cleaning up. I prefer (as do most) a rest day pattern. The randomness of our roster is anti-social and sadly, like Class mentions, it will change. I would also love to see a fixed RD roster on a permanent basis but that only comes with fixed rest day patterns. I'd love our 3 days always being together and a couple of depots have managed this but my depot kinda sucks.

True 4 day week with a 9hr 15m max turn length is pretty sweet and I think is one of the best out there.

Spare/As required has the crappy 3hr +/- movement and I'd like to see that removed or lowered to more 1hr +/- but that destroys rostering flexibility.

A funny thing happened a few weeks ago when I was discussing my availability for a delivery. I told the guy I was at work from 1354 or something like that and he went ... are you a Train Driver ?

Our precise booking on and off hours are very unique to the railway that I'm aware of and I'd like to see that removed in favour of more fixed times. All turns to be 8:45 would be amazing and stop the messing about with stupid booking on and off times. I'm aware of the impact that would have on diagrams :/

 

[djsmith200]

Thameslink

Interesting reading your thoughts. Do you know if GN share the same roster patterns as you guys?

 

[Class2ldn]

Yes I believe it's similar

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry but there's not many who wouldn't like the 4 day week.
Why would you want to work 5/6 days as standard.
Il let others decide why anyone at virgin wouldn't want a 4 day week like most other tocs
Only time I'm doing that is when I'm working rest days so I'm earning extra for it anyway.

We've had an interesting situation at my TOC. For guards (I believe it's similar for drivers but I'm not 100% so I won't risk saying so for definite) we work a 4 day week, in the 5 day weekend every 3 weeks pattern. There was however one depot that for various reasons kept its 5 day week, with a week of rest days every 6 weeks. In both cases Sundays are outside.

The company wanted the one remaining 5 day depot to come in to line with every other depot - but it met with fierce resistance from most of the depot, especially the union reps. Finally, out of a 1 link depot of 90, 18 people were found who agreed to form their own seperate link on a 4 day week, as a trial. That was 2 years ago, I think they're in to the 40s now with more guards coming over at every roster change, including one of the reps - all of those on 4 days love it!

 

[red2005]

We've had an interesting situation at my TOC. For guards (I believe it's similar for drivers but I'm not 100% so I won't risk saying so for definite) we work a 4 day week, in the 5 day weekend every 3 weeks pattern. There was however one depot that for various reasons kept its 5 day week, with a week of rest days every 6 weeks. In both cases Sundays are outside.

The company wanted the one remaining 5 day depot to come in to line with every other depot - but it met with fierce resistance from most of the depot, especially the union reps. Finally, out of a 1 link depot of 90, 18 people were found who agreed to form their own seperate link on a 4 day week, as a trial. That was 2 years ago, I think they're in to the 40s now with more guards coming over at every roster change, including one of the reps - all of those on 4 days love it!

I know which depot you're talking about..... drivers are seriously against it, especially the old hands.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The company wanted the one remaining 5 day depot to come in to line with every other depot - but it met with fierce resistance from most of the depot, especially the union reps. Finally, out of a 1 link depot of 90, 18 people were found who agreed to form their own seperate link on a 4 day week, as a trial. That was 2 years ago, I think they're in to the 40s now with more guards coming over at every roster change, including one of the reps - all of those on 4 days love it!

They were traitors when it happened - a lot of them came from the 4day week at the other depot at the same location and wanted to go back to it so took the opportunity. I remember the Resource Managers spent a long time discussing it with the reps, to resource the same depot with two links of different Ts+Cs

 

[craigybagel]

I know which depot you're talking about..... drivers are seriously against it, especially the old hands.

They were traitors when it happened - a lot of them came from the 4day week at the other depot at the same location and wanted to go back to it so took the opportunity. I remember the Resource Managers spent a long time discussing it with the reps, to resource the same depot with two links of different Ts+Cs

Indeed, PNB's at that particular messroom were rather interesting at the time - it always felt like it was about to kick off! But it's amazing how much the attitude has changed since then once people realised how good the 4 day week rolling over 3 weeks really is.

The big thing though is it's change. I'm still young enough and new enough to the railway ("only" 6 years service - 2 years of which were spent at Virgin) that I'm sure if Virgin were ever kind enough to offer me a driver's key I could make their roster work for me if necessary, as the OP has done, but a lot of people on the railway are scared about even the smallest change. And it must be said, on paper the Virgin roster does appear to be worse. The OP has made it work for him, and that's great, but I can see why people would be put off by it. Maybe though, after trying it, it might not be such a bad thing - and at least at Virgin there are plenty of other perks to make up for it!

 

[Bromley boy]

I know which depot you're talking about..... drivers are seriously against it, especially the old hands.

Really?

They preferred a 5 day week? I must say I find that astonishing - surely for almost everyone slightly longer shifts (by less than a couple of hours or so on average) is worth it for an extra day off per week?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Really?

They preferred a 5 day week? I must say I find that astonishing - surely for almost everyone slightly longer shifts (by less than a couple of hours or so on average) is worth it for an extra day off per week?

They are a funny bunch

 

[ComUtoR]

People hate change.

 

[craigybagel]

Really?

They preferred a 5 day week? I must say I find that astonishing - surely for almost everyone slightly longer shifts (by less than a couple of hours or so on average) is worth it for an extra day off per week?

Some of them own Caravans or Holiday homes and enjoy being able to spend a week at a time in them.

 

[red2005]

Really?

They preferred a 5 day week? I must say I find that astonishing - surely for almost everyone slightly longer shifts (by less than a couple of hours or so on average) is worth it for an extra day off per week?

Yes really..... the 4 day week/long weekend discussion at said depot was almost taboo!

People need to realise it's what works for the individual..... for example if one of said "old hands" has been on that 5 day week pattern for god knows how long and he/she has made it work or it's all they've ever known and become used to it you can easily see why they wouldn't wanna come off it. That could be said for guys/gals on the four day pattern too.

There's this misconception that a 4 day week is automatically an easier life than a 5 day week..... that's where I believe things like the work content etc comes into play. I can safely say now having experienced both patterns now that I'm just as if not more refreshed on the 5 day pattern than I ever was on the 4 day.

Where I've come from you NEEDED that 3 week cycle as the work/diagrams/shifts were that intense you were wrecked by the time the long weekend came around...... with the type of work I'm doing now I can see why there's no real need for that pattern.

Having done this new shift pattern now I'm certainly not "astonished"

 

[craigybagel]

Really?

They preferred a 5 day week? I must say I find that astonishing - surely for almost everyone slightly longer shifts (by less than a couple of hours or so on average) is worth it for an extra day off per week?

Also, it's not that the shifts were longer - they were the same hours as the 4 day workers - but that saved up the extra day they worked and used it to get an entire week off every 6 weeks. AIUI, moving from 5 days to 4 hasn't changed the content or the length of the jobs at all - just their rest day pattern.