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Virgin rail 'bullies'

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colpepper

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I read the first five pages then skipped ahead.

The one conclusion I can draw from this is that for normals, travel by train simply isn't worth it. Virgin had them bang to rights according to their Terms and Conditions, so the letter of the law is on their side. But is the spirit? Is it good business practice to threaten a 14 year old boy with prison for catching the train one in front of the one his parents should have taken him on?

As an enthusiast who is now a family man and an occasional traveller, if I didn't have a bit of knowledge other than what I read in the papers I wouldn't touch the railways with a pole when travelling with my family - the fine for getting it wrong being a bill the same size as a weeks holiday somewhere hot. And that is the utter madness here - not whether or not Virgin correctly applied their T&Cs, but whether those T&Cs are insane or not.

That's exactly as I see it. As I noted up thread, ticketing is clear enough for regular commuters and open tickets paid for by employers but everything else is restricted to a degree that often invites interpretation or access to a rule book full of acronyms and sub-headings.

Threatening a minor makes the company's representative lose any moral high ground and intimidation isn't as uncommon as some make out. I've seen guards snap at young girls with their feet on seats, so long as they'd do the same thing to a guy with facial tattoos on a Saturday night I don't mind. This case sounds like it might be easy pickings of low hanging fruit.
 
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Flamingo

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Hardly easy pickings. re-read the Daily Mail article that was posted in the OP, and work out how much time has been taken dealing with these people over the past few months, from the original staff on the day, to the correspondence and media contacts.

The easy option for the guard is to stay in the rear cab / buffet car, drink tea and blow the whistle. Which doubtless you would be happy with, up to the point that you have a bunch of football fans or drunk teenagers in your carriage with you, when it's "Where is the guard, why arn't they doing anything".

There are enough complaints from passengers about rail-staff cherry-picking the parts of the job they want to do. It annoys me when passengers also want to cherry-pick the jobs they want the staff to do. It's a package - if you want us to be visible and checking tickets, then the consequences of having incorrect or no tickets also have to be accepted.
 

colpepper

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The easy option for the guard is to stay in the rear cab / buffet car, drink tea and blow the whistle. Which doubtless you would be happy with, up to the point that you have a bunch of football fans or drunk teenagers in your carriage with you, when it's "Where is the guard, why arn't they doing anything".
I've been in such situations a number of times and the guard has gone missing. It's not a criticism of all guards, some are proactive and friendly, others see passengers as an enemy who's done something wrong and it's their job to find out what.

I'd recommend more travellers who think they've been mistreated to complain to the point of legal redress rather than be brow beaten by what they perceive to be big business with big lawyers. Ticket checkers are in customer support, not corporate Rottweilers on an open brief to intimidate.
 

hairyhandedfool

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'Ticket checkers' are not 'customer support', they are customer facing (or frontline staff if you prefer) and should be mannered as such, but they are infact revenue protection. I'm sure there are many who will help if they can and others who will go the extra mile to make you journey easier.
 

blacknight

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Here is an interesting story, and one worth bearing in mind when passengers are assumed to be to blame!


Although my 'issue' is not over whether or not the passengers or Virgin were 'to blame' or not, but over the excessive charges made in these circumstances under the rules (although in this case I cannot determine if they were excessed - which would be fair - or if the rules were followed to the letter, as it is unclear if the figure quoted for replacement tickets is for the entire group or just the family, and it is also unclear exactly which tickets were originally held)

Ticket examiner no Virgin service in question had only 2 options from passengers point of view
Good customer service: Pass AP ticket for travel even though on wrong train.
Bad customer service Enforce ticket regs & issue UFN. T&C of AP ticket valid only on service shown usually followed by if caught treat as no ticket being held.
As already been stated in thread 2 services had differing calling points so option to set passengers down was not an option
Passengers really need to look into restictions placed on AP tickets rather than just the face value of ticket.
 

Flamingo

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I'd recommend more travellers who think they've been mistreated to complain to the point of legal redress rather than be brow beaten by what they perceive to be big business with big lawyers. Ticket checkers are in customer support, not corporate Rottweilers on an open brief to intimidate.

We are in customer support, as well as revenue protection. However, as I have had to point out to one "gentleman" as he was being hauled off in handcuffs and was shouting he was going to write to customer services, "You are not a customer until you buy a ticket". He went to court, arguing that his DSB railcard ticket was valid, even though he had no railcard (it was his mums) and arguing that he had been mistreated and subject to racial discrimination. The magistrates did him for fare evasion and assault.

So, that is not good advice from you (unless you are an ambulance-chasing solicitor trying to drum up business - I seriously doubt if you are no-win-no-fee, though <D). The railway bylaws have been in place for well over 100 years now, and have been challenged in court many times. In simple open and shut cases like this, there is very little to argue. The court hearing will go something like this -
"Were you on the train you booked"?
"No"
"Was there any special circumstances that meant you could not catch that train that were the railways responsibility?"
"Er, no"
"Did you sign an Unpaid Fare Notice agreeing to pay?"
"er, Yes"
"OK, then play the clerk on your way out and stop wasting my time. Next case"

Ticket examiner no Virgin service in question had only 2 options from passengers point of view
Good customer service: Pass AP ticket for travel even though on wrong train.
Bad customer service Enforce ticket regs & issue UFN. T&C of AP ticket valid only on service shown usually followed by if caught treat as no ticket being held.
As already been stated in thread 2 services had differing calling points so option to set passengers down was not an option
Passengers really need to look into restictions placed on AP tickets rather than just the face value of ticket.

As you have said, from the point of view of the passenger who is caught, good customer service is allowing them to go unchallenged. If I was the person who had got out of bed an hour earlier / sat drinking coffee for an hour to get on my correct train, or had paid the extra for a flexible ticket, I would be most annoyed to know that all I had to do was get an advance ticket and give the Revenue staff a hard time / good story to use it as a flexible ticket.

If I was a passenger who got on further down the line with a correct ticket and had to split my family up into different carriages, or stand, because someone who had not paid for that train was occupying seats, I would be demanding to know why the TOC had not challenged them and made them pay the fare for the type of journey they were making.
 

Greenback

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If I was the person who had got out of bed an hour earlier / sat drinking coffee for an hour to get on my correct train, or had paid the extra for a flexible ticket, I would be most annoyed to know that all I had to do was get an advance ticket and give the Revenue staff a hard time / good story to use it as a flexible ticket.

If I was a passenger who got on further down the line with a correct ticket and had to split my family up into different carriages, or stand, because someone who had not paid for that train was occupying seats, I would be demanding to know why the TOC had not challenged them and made them pay the fare for the type of journey they were making.

That's a good point. It's often the case that the customer service argument is wheeled out when someone does not get what they want. It's important to remember that customer service extends to other customers as well.
 

blacknight

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'Ticket checkers' are not 'customer support', they are customer facing (or frontline staff if you prefer) and should be mannered as such, but they are infact revenue protection.

Spot on revenue protection is the art of demanding money with a smile.
Frontline staff are caught between passengers wanting cheap tickets & TOC's plans for shift migration away from buying tickets at station ticket office, where staff can advise on restrictions to Buy on Line print your own ticket where ticket restrictions are just a tick in a box & who honestly reads that box anyway.
Thats before going down path of companies or third parties buying tickets who is responsibile for obeying T&C, for instance how many of general public buying AP tickets understand ticket is valid at point of departure station & destination station even if its the same train calling at an intermediate station on route.
What is not known is how many passengers just pay up without complaining whilst a few cases like this one & the one at Darlington make the headlines.
 
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Flamingo

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Spot on revenue protection is the art of demanding money with a smile.
from people who need to pay more.
Frontline staff are caught between passengers wanting cheap tickets & TOC's plans for shift migration away from buying tickets at station ticket office, where staff can advise on restrictions to Buy on Line print your own ticket where ticket restrictions are just a tick in a box
From the number of threads on here and other forums, the demand for on-line and telephone sales is driven from the customer as well as the TOC's. Not everybody needs or wants to go to a booking office as their only option for buying a ticket - a significant number don't even want to go to a booking office to collect their ticket en-route to the train.
who honestly reads that box anyway.
Well, what would you suggest? An online multiple-choice exam that the passenger has to pass before they can be sold the ticket (although I would personally say that this idea has some merit!)
Thats before going down path of companies or third parties buying tickets who is responsibile for obeying T&C, for instance how many of general public buying AP tickets understand ticket is valid at point of departure station & destination station even if its the same train calling at an intermediate station on route.
Sorry, I don't understand what your point is. :-?
 

colpepper

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Frontline staff are caught between passengers wanting cheap tickets & TOC's plans for shift migration away from buying tickets at station ticket office, where staff can advise on restrictions to Buy on Line print your own ticket where ticket restrictions are just a tick in a box & who honestly reads that box anyway.
Thats before going down path of companies or third parties buying tickets who is responsibile for obeying T&C, for instance how many of general public buying AP tickets understand ticket is valid at point of departure station & destination station even if its the same train calling at an intermediate station on route.

I agree totally with that summary of the current situation. Two scenarios are meeting, an apparently customer centred, clean, efficient, privately owned, modern railway - and absurdly complex ticketing arrangements to use it.
It may not appear complicated to those whose profession it is to administer the situation and are disposed to a certain kind of didacticism (or plain pedantry), but that's because they're steeped in the rulebook and even then, this board throws up a mass of anomalies from those who aren't fare cheats but are railway enthusiasts who want to get where they're going at the best legal price.

The subtext is that if you want to travel economically you are running the gauntlet and should be ready for all kinds of bother in doing so. Best to cough up full whack and avoid having your collar felt. That doesn't meet my perception of what a railway is all about.
 

Greenback

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The ticketing system is indeed complex, in terms of the restrictions attached to many tickets and the various types of tickets on offer, but the Advance tickets have the simplest restrictions of all. They should not be difficult to understand - yoiu can only travel on the service that you are booked on.

In this case it all boils down to the rules do not apply to me attitude that is so prevalent in society today, and I have little sympathy for the people concerned, as they knew full well that they were not catching the correct service.
 

blacknight

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From the number of threads on here and other forums, the demand for on-line and telephone sales is driven from the customer as well as the TOC's.
TOC's have vested interest in increasing online sales so they can reduce number of staff in ticket offices.
Look at EMT advertising & you would think the only way to buy a ticket is via the internet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, I don't understand what your point is. :-?

Point is as in the case of the proffessor at Darlington if ticket is bought by your employer can you then legally be judged to be in breech of T&C you have personally not seen or read them.
Sadly East Coast didn't let it go to court for a legal judgement to be made in that case
 
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Flamingo

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It may not appear complicated to those whose profession it is to administer the situation and are disposed to a certain kind of didacticism (or plain pedantry), but that's because they're steeped in the rulebook and even then, this board throws up a mass of anomalies from those who aren't fare cheats but are railway enthusiasts who want to get where they're going at the best legal price.
I'm sorry, what is complicated about:
"Reservations are required for the journey and you must travel on the train shown on your ticket or reservation confirmation.These tickets are subject to availability on selected trains. Advance tickets are non-refundable.

That is the T&C from the FGW website http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=289

Millions of people a year manage to use them with no problem. The people who I charge don't as a rule strike me as stupid or educationally challenged. Some of them (like our company director) seem very clever. The "it's too complicated" argument in 90% of cases is just b*ll*x. It's an easy excuse for those who don't want to take responsibility and be treated like an adult. If someone is traveling across the country and changing trains several times, it might have some force. If they are getting on a train in Paddington and going to Swindon - that is not complicated, or difficult. I know people with learning difficulties that manage it regularly, don't try and tell me that some businessman in a suit in 1st class can't understand it, which is what happens (and the excuse that Colpepper is making for them).

I see no problem with charging the people who decide to travel on another train. I probably get 3-4 people a day come up to me on the platform and say "I'm booked on the XXXX train, can I get on this one?" They KNOW the ticket restrictions. When I tell them that I will have to charge them the difference between what they paid and the price of the flexible ticket for that train, I'm often subject to some kind of argument or abuse. These people do want the flexibility, but don't want to pay for it. They can't have both.
The subtext is that if you want to travel economically you are running the gauntlet and should be ready for all kinds of bother in doing so. Best to cough up full whack and avoid having your collar felt. That doesn't meet my perception of what a railway is all about.
My job (amongst other things) is to try and enforce the T&C that a passenger accepts when they decide to use the train. If they don't like them, then they need to find an alternative that appeals to their personality more. What I don't need when doing this is to spend an inordinate length of time arguing with some bully who thinks that if they shout, bluster, and threaten, they can get their own way (which, IMHO, is what describes the woman in this case - and people who threaten me and my colleagues with their solicitor, directly or indirectly.). Apart from everything else, that is taking me away from a vulnerable passenger who might actually NEED my help and advice. So a failure to provide Customer Service is caused by a passenger who thinks they don't have to pay, but the TOC gets the blame regardless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Point is as in the case of the proffessor at Darlington if ticket is bought by your employer can you then legally be judged to be in breech of T&C you have personally not seen or read them.
Sadly East Coast didn't let it go to court for a legal judgement to be made in that case
I have had a court case with something similar once, some mail-order car-parts I had ordered were delivered damaged, but were fitted to a car by the garage they had been delivered directly to. When I tried to return them, I was told that as they had been fitted and altered, they were accepted. When I took the supplier to small claims, I was told that the garage was acting as my agent, they had accepted them on my behalf, and even though the parts had been damaged before dispatch (the boxes were intact, but the contents scratched and dinted), the onus was on my agents to inform me that there was a problem.

In that case, the university was acting as his agent, and should have had a duty to inform him of the T&C that they had accepted on his behalf. If the good Professor had felt he had a case (and I'm sure that he had access to the best advice), then I think he would have proceeded to court.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ticketing system is indeed complex, in terms of the restrictions attached to many tickets and the various types of tickets on offer, but the Advance tickets have the simplest restrictions of all. They should not be difficult to understand - yoiu can only travel on the service that you are booked on.

In this case it all boils down to the rules do not apply to me attitude that is so prevalent in society today, and I have little sympathy for the people concerned, as they knew full well that they were not catching the correct service.
Exactly, unfortunately some posters on here think that they never have to take responsibility, it is always someone else's fault for interpreting the rules too strictly, or not explaining them in words of one syllable (and then saying "But you know what, you're special, you can do what you want).
 

Tom B

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From the number of threads on here and other forums, the demand for on-line and telephone sales is driven from the customer as well as the TOC's. Not everybody needs or wants to go to a booking office as their only option for buying a ticket - a significant number don't even want to go to a booking office to collect their ticket en-route to the train.

I'd love to buy every ticket from the ticket office - it means that I get the ticket in my hand, no faffing around picking it up later, and if there's a problem it can be dealt with not palmed off to some "support number".

However, lots of tickets, at least with EC, have an online discount - hence I book them online. And when the advance counter is closed at Waverley, even if there are more staff on the station than passengers, there's no chance of the ordinary tickets staff issuing you with an advance dated ticket!
 

Flamingo

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I'd love to buy every ticket from the ticket office - it means that I get the ticket in my hand, no faffing around picking it up later, and if there's a problem it can be dealt with not palmed off to some "support number".

However, lots of tickets, at least with EC, have an online discount - hence I book them online. And when the advance counter is closed at Waverley, even if there are more staff on the station than passengers, there's no chance of the ordinary tickets staff issuing you with an advance dated ticket!
Fair enough, I'm not saying you are wrong, but responding to a post that was saying that online booking was a plot by the evil TOC's to close ticket offices.
 

colpepper

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unfortunately some posters on here think that they never have to take responsibility, it is always someone else's fault for interpreting the rules too strictly, or not explaining them in words of one syllable (and then saying "But you know what, you're special, you can do what you want).

Which posters have claimed that?
 

90019

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The subtext is that if you want to travel economically you are running the gauntlet and should be ready for all kinds of bother in doing so. Best to cough up full whack and avoid having your collar felt. That doesn't meet my perception of what a railway is all about.

If you want to travel economically, and get a cheap ticket, you have to adhere to restrictions (which are in this case pretty simple), but that's the same for most forms of transport.
You're only running the gauntlet if you choose to ignore those restrictions and are caught doing so, in which case you will get in all kinds of bother.
 

colpepper

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If you want to travel economically, and get a cheap ticket, you have to adhere to restrictions (which are in this case pretty simple), but that's the same for most forms of transport.
You're only running the gauntlet if you choose to ignore those restrictions and are caught doing so, in which case you will get in all kinds of bother.
Indeed, but restrictions should be absolutely clear and logical and appeal to natural justice, they shouldn't need to be sought in a rule book. Travelling between two unfamiliar places should not need 'research'.
If I were to ask for the cheapest tickets between east anglian and north wales destinations, a not unreasonable request in present economic times, I wouldn't expect to be intimidated by railway staff if those tickets contained no clear logic or if the restrictions were occluded in para IIb chapter 81 or whatever.

We're separating two things here, passengers who deliberately seek to travel without a proper ticket or no ticket and can be proved to do so and those who expect civility and common sense when train operation doesn't match their expectations of holding a ticket. Until the latter group stand up for themselves TOCs will continue to promote a ticket labyrinth that suits themselves and their shareholders and not the travelling public and employ those who see their role as guard dogs of that status quo.
 

blacknight

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I'd love to buy every ticket from the ticket office - it means that I get the ticket in my hand, no faffing around picking it up later, and if there's a problem it can be dealt with not palmed off to some "support number".

However, lots of tickets, at least with EC, have an online discount - hence I book them online. And when the advance counter is closed at Waverley, even if there are more staff on the station than passengers, there's no chance of the ordinary tickets staff issuing you with an advance dated ticket!

Do you think East Coast are offering you an online discount for the following reason.
A They are feeling abit generous or
B They are trying to reduce ticket office staff numbers by 30 positions (see TSSA news release for more details on that)
 
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colpepper

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Several. You, for one. Read your own posts again, I don't have time to go through them, I have to go to work and find somebody to threaten. <D
I haven't once said that and challenge you to find where I have. You're characterising anyone who finds travel restrictions complicated as cheats or stupid cheats who should read the damned instructions. As I said above and this board bears testament to, the restrictions are frequently anything but clear and ticket purchasing systems take such information ever further away from transparency.

TOCs don't care, they just want to fill their pockets and those of their shareholders. I don't know whether the case in the OP will be the one that points out the absurdity of the situation or a future one will but I'll applaud whoever stands up for rail travellers' rights in the prejudicial exercise of rail travellers' responsibilities.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Advance restrictions are not complicated! What's so hard tO understand about travel on the train written on your ticket, else you'll have to buy a new one (unless you've been given permission etc etc.)
 
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colpepper

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Advance restrictions are not complicated! What's so hard tO understand about revel on the train written on your ticket, else you'll have to buy a new one (unless you've been given permission etc etc.)
Advance restrictions are only one kind. I refer you to a few dozen pages of 'fares, tickets and routing enquiries' on this board. Ticketing is either unclear, or this board is populated by very stupid railway enthusiasts.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Advance restrictions are only one kind. I refer you to a few dozen pages of 'fares, tickets and routing enquiries' on this board. Ticketing is either unclear, or this board is populated by very stupid railway enthusiasts.

This thread is about advance tickets, which is what we've all been talking about.
 

DarloRich

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Advance restrictions are only one kind. I refer you to a few dozen pages of 'fares, tickets and routing enquiries' on this board. Ticketing is either unclear, or this board is populated by very stupid railway enthusiasts.

WHAT IS DIFFICULT ABOUT GET ON THE TRAIN YOU BOOKED?

It is written on the bloody ticket! They got on the wrong train; it is their responsibility to get themselves on the right train at the right time with the right ticket. There was no underhand, backroom, small print reason for this situation. The responsibility was theirs and theirs alone.

I think they decided to chance it and get an extra half hour in London - it backfired and they won’t accept responsibility.
 

colpepper

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WHAT IS DIFFICULT ABOUT GET ON THE TRAIN YOU BOOKED?
Plenty if it involves intimidation of a minor with threats of imprisonment. That's taking a commercial transaction into bullying, IMHO, and as been pointed out repeatedly, train ticketing as a whole isn't simple.
 

SS4

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WHAT IS DIFFICULT ABOUT GET ON THE TRAIN YOU BOOKED?
.

Exactly, it's not rocket science.

Plenty if it involves intimidation of a minor with threats of imprisonment. That's taking a commercial transaction into bullying, IMHO, and as been pointed out repeatedly, train ticketing as a whole isn't simple.

Was that ever proved, or do we just have the woman's word for it?
 

DarloRich

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Plenty if it involves intimidation of a minor with threats of imprisonment. That's taking a commercial transaction into bullying, IMHO, and as been pointed out repeatedly, train ticketing as a whole isn't simple.

No it isnt. If you went into Currys, picked up a TV and walked out what would happen? Would Currys just say mind how you go? Would they chuff - they would be after you.

If you dont pay your council tax what happens? The council persue and send nasty letters saying they will take you to court - how is that different to this situation?

If you calimed benefits fraudluently does the BA just wave it off. No they will send you nasty letters threatening court action to recover the money

They didnt have a valid ticket - it is thier fualt - no one else is to balme UNLESS a virgin employee looked at thier ticket and passed them on the train. Otherwise they have need to take reponsibility for thier fraudulent actions.
 

colpepper

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It looks like railway workers closing ranks to the outside world. That may not matter from the inside but if the woman has made a claim of intimidation of a minor and being told by a paid official she was okay to board, those routes need to be proven beyond reasonable doubt not to be the case rather than automatically assuming yet another 'scrote' is trying it on and publicly upsetting everyone's apple cart. That's simply the us vs them attitude I believe is often evident, if not prevalent.

If I went to Currys and asked for a washing machine that performed x, y and z and the assistant assured me the £350 machine would, I would not expect to be arrested if a £450 washer was brought out of storage because I requested those three facilities. The comparison is an interesting one however as white goods are clearly marked and if I didn't like the attitude of Curry's staff I could go to another shop or on-line and buy exactly the same thing. Railway travel offers no such competition for an equivalent service, TOCs would claim I was being duplicitous in expecting a fast wash cycle on a £350 machine and should take whatever penalties came my way for being so presumptuous.
 
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