Virgin rail 'bullies'

[EM2]

The point I'm making is inspectors shouldn't have to make a call on whether travellers without a ticket are contrite, cocky, desperate or habitual to assess whether they should be summonsed.

So you're saying that anyone using a ticket outside of the conditions should be taken to court, no questions asked?
The judiciary will love you!

 

[colpepper]

So you're saying that anyone using a ticket outside of the conditions should be taken to court, no questions asked?
The judiciary will love you!

That's the absurdity of the situation. Inspectors 'can't' habitually nail everyone without the correct ticket, they'd probably be hauled before their line manager if they did. So we have Solomon judgements on the deserving and undeserving ticket-less by amateurs in the human nature business. Or despots if you hit unlucky with your guard.

 

[yorkie]

The point I'm making is inspectors shouldn't have to make a call on whether travellers without a ticket are contrite, cocky, desperate or habitual to assess whether they should be summonsed.

If they do not have a ticket at all, then they sell them one. No need to 'make a call' surely? If the customer refuses to purchase a ticket, then there are procedures for that.

So, what's the problem?

 

[Ticket Man]

That's the absurdity of the situation. Inspectors 'can't' habitually nail everyone without the correct ticket, they'd probably be hauled before their line manager if they did. So we have Solomon judgements on the deserving and undeserving ticket-less by amateurs in the human nature business. Or despots if you hit unlucky with your guard.

you do seem to have a very strong (not agreeing or not with it) opinion of inspectors, do you have any experience in the field?

 

[colpepper]

you do seem to have a very strong (not agreeing or not with it) opinion of inspectors, do you have any experience in the field?

Only that they vary in my experience (and from responses here) from capricious, to laissez faire to despotic. The discussion does seem to be a surreal, Alice in Wonderland one where tickets are never simply for a destination but are also 'very straightforward', and passengers are evil 'scrotes' but some might simply be sold a ticket for their destination if they ask nicely.

Inside the loop I suppose it all makes sense but it does seem antiquated and likely to lose a heap of revenue, does anyone know how much?

 

[yorkie]

Only that they vary in my experience (and from responses here) from capricious, to laissez faire to despotic. The discussion does seem to be a surreal, Alice in Wonderland one where tickets are never simply for a destination but are also 'very straightforward', and passengers are evil 'scrotes' but some might simply be sold a ticket for their destination if they ask nicely.

Inside the loop I suppose it all makes sense but it does seem antiquated and likely to lose a heap of revenue, does anyone know how much?

Sorry but I just don't understand this post.

When you refer to "the discussion"; which discussion?

And I am confused as to why passengers will only be sold tickets if they ask nicely?

Is there a particular problem with some rail staff on your local line?

 

[Ticket Man]

The point I'm making is inspectors shouldn't have to make a call on whether travellers without a ticket are contrite, cocky, desperate or habitual to assess whether they should be summonsed.

If we didn't have this system (which in my opinion/experience is a balance of rule enforcement and circumstantial discretion) then what would we have?

 

[colpepper]

And I am confused as to why passengers will only be sold tickets if they ask nicely?

Is there a particular problem with some rail staff on your local line?

It's not a case of being sold a ticket, it's whether the passenger is reported for not having a ticket. For example railway company rules may insist a passenger must have a ticket before getting on a train. At the same station a passenger may get on another company's train to a similar destination and pay as a matter of course. An overseas visitor would have no reason for concern or be blithely breaking rules without any consistent sense of natural justice.
From two of the inspectors who have posted here one says all infringements are reported (if I understood him correctly) another refers to 'scum' among other descriptions. It doesn't sound like a modern, objective or professional way of dealing with ticket transactions.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I
From two of the inspectors who have posted here one says all infringements are reported (if I understood him correctly) another refers to 'scum' among other descriptions. It doesn't sound like a modern, objective or professional way of dealing with ticket transactions.

And how do you think the police deal with things? Each police officer will have their own way of doing things and will make their own judgements. And I can quite assure you, the police refer to some of the general public far worse than scum.
Magistrates, judges and the jury will all make judgments about people in front of them.
By extension of your logic, policing, and thus the entire judiciary is flawed.

 

[yorkie]

colpepper, sounds like you are talking about a Penalty Fare zone where it is compulsory to buy before boarding. Your location says Yorkshire so I can only guess you've had experiences elsewhere. I doubt you would have a problem buying a ticket on board any train in Yorkshire.

 

[Ticket Man]

yorkie still asked a valid question though

is there a problem with the staff on your local?

 

[colpepper]

I rarely catch local trains these days. Experiences I've had have mostly been on long distance routes and listening to a third party's ticket troubles. Based entirely on contributions to this thread, an objective reader would agree that approaches to ticket revenue collection is at best inconsistent.

 

[Ticket Man]

I'll agree that its not a flat "this is how it is" system. But don't you think if it was, people would be prepared to put up with the cold, harsh and unflinching enforcement of rule and regulations regardless of circumstance.

I'm not a robot, and the people I deal with on a daily basis are not just numbers.
I don't think im being unreasonable by making judgement call on individual incident's based on my past experience and the evidence presented before me.

I feel the price for this consistency would be too high

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I rarely catch local trains these days. Experiences I've had have mostly been on long distance routes and listening to a third party's ticket troubles. Based entirely on contributions to this thread, an objective reader would agree that approaches to ticket revenue collection is at best inconsistent.

That's exactly how policing works - are you saying that's flawed?

 

[colpepper]

That's exactly how policing works - are you saying that's flawed?

I don't understand? Are you saying policing is inconsistent and that's okay? Are you saying revenue collectors are sworn in policemen?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't understand? Are you saying policing is inconsistent and that's okay? Are you saying revenue collectors are sworn in policemen?

No. Police officers regularly make judgement calls, and there will always be another officer who may have taken a different cause of action. You seem to be saying that that process is flawed.

 

[colpepper]

No. Police officers regularly make judgement calls, and there will always be another officer who may have taken a different cause of action. You seem to be saying that that process is flawed.

On a simple transaction like a ticket there is no place for comparisons with public policing and no guard in his right mind would want policing powers while on a train.
If there's opportunity for judgement in a railway ticket, there's the chance for abuse. TOCs are delegating powers rather than adopting a simple and universal ticketing system. As I said much earlier, you only have to look at the threads on this ticketing board (the multi-ticket one for example) to see that train ticketing is anything but simple and to introduce a moral element into a complex pricing structure is fraught with danger.

 

[yorkie]

TOCs are delegating powers rather than adopting a simple and universal ticketing system.

Actually we do have a universal ticketing system, don't we?

In other countries each TOC may have it's own tickets and there may be no inter-available tickets. Admittedly the franchise operators would need to be more done on a regional basis than a service pattern basis.

 

[colpepper]

Actually we do have a universal ticketing system, don't we?

So if I ask for the cheapest rail travel between say, East Anglia and North Wales, would the station issue me with individual tickets to make that journey as economically as possible? I suspect not.

 

[yorkie]

So if I ask for the cheapest rail travel between say, East Anglia and North Wales, would the station issue me with individual tickets to make that journey as economically as possible? I suspect not.

No, they won't. And it would be unrealistic to expect them to.

 

[colpepper]

No, they won't. And it would be unrealistic to expect them to.

Why? I'm sorry if that sounds provocative but seriously, why can't I ask for the cheapest way of getting from A to B by train and not receive it?

 

[EM2]

On a simple transaction like a ticket there is no place for comparisons with public policing and no guard in his right mind would want policing powers while on a train.

A person jumps on a train, having had an opportunity to buy a ticket but doesn't do so.
A person takes a Mars bar from a shop without paying for it.
These are similar offences (obtaining service or goods with no intention of paying for them).
So, if there is no option of discretion , as you suggest, then both people should be convicted?

 

[Darandio]

Would you get on the number 18 town bus in Pontefract and ask the driver for the cheapest combination of bus tickets to Ashford?

Poor comparison maybe but totally unrealistic in the same manner as what you suggest, especially if you consider the train you are asking on is a similar local service.

 

[colpepper]

A person jumps on a train, having had an opportunity to buy a ticket but doesn't do so.

I could jump on a GC train to London tomorrow having had the opportunity to pay on line or at the station but declined to do so and be issued a ticket without any problem. On another part of the system I could do the same thing and be issued with a ticket or accused of fare evasion.
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Would you get on the number 18 town bus in Pontefract and ask the driver for the cheapest combination of bus tickets to Ashford?

Poor comparison maybe but totally unrealistic in the same manner as what you suggest, especially if you consider the train you are asking on is a similar local service.

In BR days I used to make all kinds of unusual journeys and know my second class ticket with railcard was in all likelihood the cheapest way of getting between two places by rail.

 

[yorkie]

A person jumps on a train, having had an opportunity to buy a ticket but doesn't do so.
A person takes a Mars bar from a shop without paying for it.
These are similar offences (obtaining service or goods with no intention of paying for them).
So, if there is no option of discretion , as you suggest, then both people should be convicted?

While I agree with you that colpepper's views on discretion should be challenged, this is a flawed example, as most TOCs do allow full fare tickets to be purchased on board, and some TOCs allow discounted and restricted tickets to be purchased on board too. However if you changed your example to a PF station departing from a PF station where the passenger had to get through a compulsory ticket area with active barriers to board the train, then your example has much more value, in that the intent would be there (e.g. by having jumped over the barriers, used a platform ticket, etc to board a train where the policy is you must buy before boarding).

But as a general example it doesn't work, and colpepper has been able to get out of what may otherwise have been a tricky question for him to answer

 

[colpepper]

Purely anecdotally, last time I caught a local train and asked for a Day Rover ticket the guard pulled a face and said, 'ask for it somewhere further up the line'.

 

[Darandio]

Purely anecdotally, last time I caught a local train and asked for a Day Rover ticket the guard pulled a face and said, 'ask for it somewhere further up the line'.

Did you get on before 08:45? He may well have been helping you if that was the case.

 

[colpepper]

But as a general example it doesn't work, and colpepper has been able to get out of what may otherwise have been a tricky question for him to answer

Surely rail travel and the legality surrounding it shouldn't be about tricky questions? I could catch that GC train tomorrow (if I could put up with this weekend's disruptions) for £25 return. A discounted, walk on, any time (or at least any time until the end of the month) ticket. Or I could ask for an any time return at the ticket office and be charged £239.00.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you get on before 08:45? He may well have been helping you if that was the case.

9.45 and I could have left the next station at any time and been within my rights/ banged to rights, depending on who noticed.

 

[jon0844]

They are mutually exclusive statements.

When quoted out of context I would agree.

The ticket combinations aren't that complicated. An open (or flexible) ticket is flexible, and you should assume that discounted (advance) tickets or non-flexible ones have conditions attached. Likewise peak and off-peak tickets.

If in doubt, assume the worst and if necessary ask someone for help. Then you're not likely to get caught out.

That is, to me, pretty simple.

I personally don't buy fully open tickets as they cost a fortune, but given I know they're expensive because they're flexible, it does kind of point to the fact that maybe those extra cheap ones aren't.

The same with flights. I've never bought a flexible ticket, but my wife has for when she was studying abroad and didn't know when she was going to return. She'd have actually been better off just buying a cheap Ryanair flight when she needed than having this expensive ticket, but I can see why you might want the reassurance of having it ready.

As said above, many TOCs allow the sale of tickets onboard. In fact, any staffed train is likely to do so. Those who are driver only clearly can't, so they have penalty fares instead. The alternative would be gates at every station, operating all the times trains are running, or revenue on each train (3 if you had a 12-car train with no walkways) and I suspect fares would rise considerably, or stations would have opening hours slashed (and then no trains calling there) or closed completely.

I am not actually against the idea of having staffed stations until the last train, for what it's worth, but do accept the cost would be very high. You'd still get people trying it on though.

 

[MikeWh]

Why? I'm sorry if that sounds provocative but seriously, why can't I ask for the cheapest way of getting from A to B by train and not receive it?

Because it would be unrealistic to expect every salesperson to be able to provide the correct answer for every one of the billions of potential journeys. However, if you ask what the cheapest way of getting from London to Birmingham at a particular time for instance, I would expect them to compare Virgin, LM and Chiltern through tickets. Also, if you have worked out that by splitting at Banbury you can get it cheaper and you ask for specific tickets then they are obliged to sell them to you.