Virgin rail 'bullies'

[ChrisCooper]

The big problem with trains in the UK is that nearly all are mixed service between long distance, where there is more of a pre-booked market, and short distance which is pay on the day, often fairly spur of the moment. Many service will carry passengers travelling anywhere from 10mins to a few hours. Whilst in some cases boarding/setdown only can prevent this, in other cases there is little or no choice, with the long distance trains providing an essential (to maintain capacity and frequency) or only service to the station, so local traveller have no choice but to use them. It's not like on the continent where even before high speed services, there was a big distinction between local and long distance services, the former being turn up and go, the latter pre-booked.

In most cases the problem will only go if the railways give up their local passengers to buses. Pricing of turn up and go tickets does tend to do that anyway, as it can often be much cheaper using the bus than the train, and not much longer (and even where the journey is longer, you can often still arrive well before the first off peak train), more so when the time and cost of getting to and from the station at each end (including parking if driving, or bus fares if not) is taken into account. Buses are often more frequent too, and can be more direct.

 

[Zoe]

Beeching thought that unprofitable rail services could be replaced with buses. We know the result of that.

 

[yorkie]

The only problem being that the 0931 is a peak service. As is the 0951. And 1011 :roll:

Off Peak Returns with a Railcard are valid at any time, any day of the week with Virgin.

Charging the non-Railcard discounted Anytime fare on top of the Advance fare already paid is hugely disproportionate in my view, and I hope that one day a court rules this to be the case, and the practice is stopped.

The TOCs are too arrogant to act fair unless forced to by the Courts (or unless the media stepped up the pressure by launching a big campaign against TOCs.)

 

[davidgiles]

Related to this issue, what is the collective wisdom of the following scenario?

Mr X is at Preston station on a Saturday evening, waiting for a Virgin service to London. He is travelling on an Advance ticket, having arrived from Edinburgh on a connecting TPX service. His ultimate destination is a SWT station which has a relatively sparse service.

The booked train (let's say 1905) from Preston to Euston is showing '35 minutes late' on the CIS. However, the preceding service (let's say the 1805) is also running late and has not yet arrived at Preston. It is due at about 1910.

Mr X knows that if he catches the booked train, he will miss the last train of the day to his destination. As he has a through ticket, the NCoC should get him to his destination by taxi if necessary.

If he (illegally, as some have argued) decides to travel on the delayed 1805 from Preston, he will be able to make the connection. That would save him time and be a more comfortable journey. It would also save the TOC the expense of having to pay for a taxi.

There are no station staff around to authorise travelling on the 'earlier' train. Such common-sense is not explicitly permitted in the terms and conditions of the Advance ticket purchased.

What should Mr X do?

 

[Mojo]

I certainly don't agree with those who say that the system is too complicated, I might disagree with many of their conditions, but the condition requiring that someone travels on the correct train certainly isn't one of them! After all, the key reason for Advance fares is to put bums on seats of trains which would otherwise be vacant, helping spread out the load between trains and helping to improve the railway's economics given nationally the number of vacant seats as a proportion is still quite high. There may also be other reasons such as PR ("look at our cheap fares") but they are probably supplementary benefits more than anything else. As well as a loss for the railway, it would be a huge loss for those who do use Advance fares properly and manage to get some very good deals.

I agree that charging for a full open single ON TOP of the Advance fare already paid is over the top. That means that by travelling on the wrong train on an Advance ticket incurs a greater penalty than someone who just boarded the train with no ticket (on a Toc which advertises you can buy a full price ticket on board).

 

[Failed Unit]

Ask the station staff - who can give him something in writing or in the case when it happened to me speak to the gaurd who let me travel.

 

[jon0844]

The idea of open access is fine, except that trains have one advantage by being quite tightly controlled (in terms of routes and timetabling).

Airlines can cherry pick routes, then pack up if it doesn't work out. We can say how cheap flying might be, but the airline might stop flying a route tomorrow and that's it.

If the key routes were open to competition in the true sense of the word, we'd probably see trains running only when they think there's demand - so sod the off-peak users, or people wanting to get home late at night.

 

[Tom B]

Wouldn't that leave the taxpayer propping up even more unprofitable franchises whilst the private sector creamed off all the profitable paths

Yep - just look at the way buses are run. Profitable routes are run as cash cows, unprofitable routes are propped up by the local authority - and in this instance, there's no definition of "unprofitable", it just requires the operator to claim it isn't making money to get subsidy paid.

 

[Zoe]

If the key routes were open to competition in the true sense of the word, we'd probably see trains running only when they think there's demand - so sod the off-peak users, or people wanting to get home late at night.

Unprofitable services could be subsidized, like with the buses.

 

[yorkie]

What should Mr X do?

I'd ask the guard, who would surely say yes. In the highly unlikely event of the guard saying no I'd be putting in a claim under Delay Repay and making it clear that the member of staff was approached and refused permission for the delay to be avoided.

If the time of arrival was absolutely critical and delay repay money and taxis were of no consolation to me, then I would board the train anyway and argue on the train if necessary.

I really think it highly unlikely that a guard would refuse travel in such a circumstance, but there's 'bad apples' in almost every job, sadly. Perhaps 99 times out of 100, you would have no problem I think.

 

[Deerfold]

Ask the station staff - who can give him something in writing or in the case when it happened to me speak to the gaurd who let me travel.

That's fine when there are station staff there (and there's no-one else with queries) or you're at the start of a route. Most people wouldn't know where in a train the guard would be and trains rarely stop for more than a couple of minutes.

I arrived at BHM years ago with an advance ticket back when I rarely did long-distance rail travel to find my London service cancelled and advice up to catch the following service. The service half an hour earlier (I said it was a while ago!) had not yet left as I'd arrived in *plenty* of time. I asked a member of staff if I could catch it (and avoid being rammed onto the other one) who said I'd have to ask at the travel desk upstairs. I went upstairs, queued and asked and they said I'd have to check with the Train Manager. I went back to the platform and asked which part of the train the Train Manager would be in and was told. I got on the train there but she did not turn up until after we'd departed and passed Birmingham International. She let me travel but told me the travel desk should have endorsed my ticket to let me travel (at the time I'd never heard of this so didn't think of asking for it). I was panicking slightly for several minutes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

davidgiles, officially he must wait and get as far as he can on later services having been delayed, possibly having a taxi or overnight accomodation paid for by a TOC. Unofficially, he can ask the guard/TM on the earlier service to see if he can travel on that service, but he is not entitled to travel on that service.

 

[jon0844]

Unprofitable services could be subsidized, like with the buses.

Yes they could. And indeed maybe they should.

But many councils are now cutting the subsidies for rural bus routes, and it would be hard to guarantee the subsidies would always exist.

We might still end up with the rural services being cut to nothing, especially when the usual tricks are employed (make the service run so badly that people stop using it, then argue that there's no demand).

I am therefore not convinced that this would be a good alternative.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes they could. And indeed maybe they should.

But many councils are now cutting the subsidies for rural bus routes, and it would be hard to guarantee the subsidies would always exist.

And not just rural routes - from April North Yorkshire CC will not subsidise *any* evening or Sunday services leaving just a handful of routes in the county running at these times.

 

[LexyBoy]

Off Peak Returns with a Railcard are valid at any time, any day of the week with Virgin.

Charging the non-Railcard discounted Anytime fare on top of the Advance fare already paid is hugely disproportionate in my view, and I hope that one day a court rules this to be the case, and the practice is stopped.

The TOCs are too arrogant to act fair unless forced to by the Courts (or unless the media stepped up the pressure by launching a big campaign against TOCs.)

Ah, I didn't realise they had a railcard. Totally agree that the penalty is disproportionate.

Personally I think it shouldn't be allowed to offer Advance fares on Peak services. If there are spare seats which need filling then it's obviously not under peak demand and so should be off-peak; if it's packed then why put extra passengers on it, when these people are looking for cheap tickets and could be tempted onto quieter services?

I feel that the TOCs are exploiting the overpricing of Off Peak Singles with Advances, as the only way to affordably make a one-way trip in many cases is with Advances. And if a customer misses either booked train on a return journey, both Advance fares are effectively wasted since the replacement Single on one leg is the same as a Return.

 

[Zoe]

But the same can be said about the system we have now, the govnemrnet could decide to cut the subsidy to Northern.

 

[Flamingo]

Personally, I think that advanced tickets should be changable on the day, or on train, to the cheapest fare available for that train plus the £10 charge per ticket (to stop people taking the piddle).

However, my opinion is worth no more than anybody elses. The simple facts are that the T&C of these tickets are well available and thanks to stories like this, well publicised. If passengers don't wish to be bound by these T&C, then don't buy the tickets. The "It's too complicated" arguement in this case is a bit of a red herring, as the family seem to be educated and able to understand the concept. (Also, IMHO, the only reason they were charged a full open is that by their attitude they managed to piddle off somebody enough to use a big stick on them.)

Regarding taking them to court, I'm sorry Yorkie, but the principle of proportion may not be quite as clear-cut as you think. The last case of fare-evasion I had that went to court was two passengers on Family railcard tickets without the railcard or children. They were given the option of excessing, which from memory was around £30 total, their response was to hide in the loo until removed by police.

Bear in mind, that the excess was £30 total - one was given a caution, the other (who had previous) was fined a total of £450 including costs. A bit more than £30.

Courts take a dim view of fare evasion, and that's what this was.

In this case, they can bluster and shout all they want, they were caught. End of.

 

[LexyBoy]

Also meant to bed that this route is crying out for a shoulder peak or super off peak. Peak fares are an unbelievable 350% of the off peak fare!

 

[davidgiles]

davidgiles, officially he must wait and get as far as he can on later services having been delayed, possibly having a taxi or overnight accomodation paid for by a TOC. Unofficially, he can ask the guard/TM on the earlier service to see if he can travel on that service, but he is not entitled to travel on that service.

And that seems to be a rule (or an interpretation of a rule) that is in neither the interest of Mr X nor the train operating company - especially if they have to shell out for overnight accommodation which is manifestly unnecessary. Possibly in the interests of taxi/hotel operators though.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Personally, I think that advanced tickets should be changable on the day, or on train, to the cheapest fare available for that train plus the £10 charge per ticket (to stop people taking the piddle).

You can change the ticket at any time before the first booked train leaves

 

[Flamingo]

You can change the ticket at any time before the first booked train leaves

Yea, I know that, I think that there should be some leway for missed trains as well.

 

[Zoe]

You can change the ticket at any time before the first booked train leaves

But not to another train on the same day.

 

[Flamingo]

But not to another train on the same day.

If before the train leaves, you can change it for the relevant ticket for the later train you want to travel on, peak or off-peak. (plus £10 charge)

 

[EM2]

Off Peak Returns with a Railcard are valid at any time, any day of the week with Virgin.

Where is a railcard mentioned in the original story? The tickets were bought for them

Her friend had booked tickets to travel on the 9.51am train

So, unless the friend had checked they had a railcard in the first place, then the offence gets worse!

 

[Zoe]

If before the train leaves, you can change it for the relevant ticket for the later train you want to travel on, peak or off-peak. (plus £10 charge)

This will cost you quite a bit more. What you are unable to do is change to another advance fare on a alter train the same day even if the allocation of advance fares has not sold out.

 

[TEW]

You can change an advance fare for another train on the same day as long as its done before 1800 on the day before travel. After then the advance fares have in effect sold out, they are no longer available to anybody.

 

[Flamingo]

This will cost you quite a bit more. What you are unable to do is change to another advance fare on a alter train the same day even if the allocation of advance fares has not sold out.

It may or may not cost a lot more, it depends on the price of the original advance ticket. Not all of them are mega-cheap, some of them are only £5 to £15 less than the equivalent walk-up ticket for the same train. In some cases, if the advance ticket is for a peak-time ticket and they end up on an off-peak train, the advance ticket is a lot more than the equivalent ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

I once had a situation where i had a 1st AP return (well 2 singles) worth nearly £100. I wanted to upgrade it to an off-peak 1st return. (both between Edinburgh and London) I failed as no-one knew in the ticket office how to upgrade advance to anytime so I needed to write of the advanced. Expensive lesson.

 

[mrcheek]

Where is a railcard mentioned in the original story? The tickets were bought for them

So, unless the friend had checked they had a railcard in the first place, then the offence gets worse!

whoa, steady on there, you might drag the thread back on topic!

I cant see any mention in the original article of a railcard being used, so I think we can assume it wasnt, and so that part of the discussion, like so much else, is irrelevant.

But, if a railcard WAS used, then maybe thats the real issue that everyone has missed. A ticket inspector might be prepared to let slide someone on the wrong train, but if those people are also using discounted tickets for which they have no valid railcard, then the offence becomes more serious. An additional case of deception!

Perhaps someone can point me to where it says they used a railcard to purchase the tickets.

 

[RJ]

I disagree with the abolition or amendment of Advance fares. The other day, I was able to book ticket for a rather long distance for just £9.25 (with YP discount), 3 days before travel. I observed the time of my ticket, aimed to be at the station 45 minutes before the train left and had a seamless journey for a bargain price. I was even delayed by 25 minutes on my way to the station. There's nothing confusing, misleading or unfair about that and I noticed the coach was more or less full of people my age with similar tickets. How do you book a specific train for an important journey then manage to miss it? The T&Cs are advised/required to be read prior to purchase and I'd hate to be denied a bargain because some feel that their cheap tickets should give them full flexibility. I'm intrigued as to whether those suggesting that these tickets are dumped actually travel by train and think that being made to pay more is a good thing? Unless I'm missing something, there seems to be something seriously flawed with that train of thought.

I don't think that it's illegal or unethical to have a "buy before you board" policy either. People who could not do this are offered the full range of tickets and people who could, but decided not to are invited to buy an undiscounted ticket or pay a Penalty Fare/UPFN. Many people think they're justified in boarding a train and completing their journey without paying at the other end just because they were not approached en route and there are no barriers at either end. I often have referred to me, people with expired season tickets, no supporting railcard, unvalidated PAYG Oyster cards or simply no ticket, some admitting that they had been used to not being approached to pay their fare. The railway is not here to provide free rides and those who want TOCs to be more lax on "buy before you board" policy need a serious reality check!