Virgin price war in the West Midlands

[bengolding]

A few weeks ago, VT cleverly decided to bring in their own "Virgin Trains only" fares on the busy Rugby-Wolverhampton corridor, which are significantly cheaper than the "Any Permitted" fares on the route.

I was on a LM service on Fri on a short journey to Birmingham International and overheard the guard tell a colleague that they now had to make more regular checks on this corridor, as many people were travelling on board with VT only tickets. In reality, ticket checks on this route are practically very rare indeed.

VT always lecture before departure that LM only tickets aren't valid. I suppose LM (and CrossCountry) should do the same.

 

[Dai.]

a price war in the uk rail industry?

the worlds crazy!


ah well, I guess the recession brings it all on, people are trying cheaper ways to get where they want. TOC's should have seen this coming.

As for the price war, Virgin know what they are doing, they've been in many price wars, British Airways was another price war they got into.

 

[Techniquest]

Not the first price war this, FGW and ATW were at it for a while in 2007, made for some nice and cheap bashes that. Although the Any Permitted was still cheaper than the restricted tickets!

 

[Dai.]

I must have missed that price war!
On topic though, surely this is good consumer wise because there will most definitely be a drop in the prices in the tickets, more people using trains instead of cars, drop in congestion.. etc.

 

[nedchester]

Just leads to more confusion for the rail user. Ticket simplification? I think not!!

 

[Old Timer]

Good old Virgin.

Always the first to the complaints window when someone else undercuts them, yet quick to take on others when it suits.

Nothing like a good dose of hypocricy, as I recall their complaints about Silverlink/Central fares from London, and their insistence that Chiltern could not divert via the Coventry Corridor, yet when engineering work affected Virgin, they insisted on priority in Regulation over Chiltern Trains when the got agreement to operate THEIR services via the Chiltern route. :roll::roll::roll::roll:

 

[mrcheek]

So, a rail company cuts prices, and gets criticised for it.....

Seriously, some of you people are idiots, and obviously dont really like trains and railways at all.

 

[glynn80]

A few weeks ago, VT cleverly decided to bring in their own "Virgin Trains only" fares on the busy Rugby-Wolverhampton corridor, which are significantly cheaper than the "Any Permitted" fares on the route.

I was on a LM service on Fri on a short journey to Birmingham International and overheard the guard tell a colleague that they now had to make more regular checks on this corridor, as many people were travelling on board with VT only tickets. In reality, ticket checks on this route are practically very rare indeed.

VT always lecture before departure that LM only tickets aren't valid. I suppose LM (and CrossCountry) should do the same.

I cannot find any "walk-up" Virgin Trains Only fares between Rugby and Wolverhampton whatsoever (having checked both the FRPP and various WebTISs). There is a Virgin Only flow listed in the FRPP but all the ticket types listed under the flow are Advance fares.

Virgin have however introduced Virgin Trains Only "walk-up" fares between various stations on their route* but these have been in situ since 30 March 2009.

*The full list is as follows:

• Birmingham International to Rugby
• Birmingham New Street-Rugby
• Coventry to Rugby
• Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly
• London Euston to Milton Keynes
• Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly
• Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Wilmslow or Stockport
• Milton Keynes to London Euston
• Rugby to Coventry, Birmingham International or Birmingham New Street
• Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly
• Wilmslow to Manchester Piccadilly

(http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2009/03/money-saving-tips-from-virgin-trains.html)

 

[tbtc]

[*]Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Wilmslow or Stockport

...good luck to them, but I can't imagine many people wanting to book "operator specific/ train specific" tickets on a short journey with plenty of services each hour like Piccadilly to Stockport...

 

[Old Timer]

So, a rail company cuts prices, and gets criticised for it.....

Seriously, some of you people are idiots, and obviously dont really like trains and railways at all.

Try reading and comprehending what was written before putting foot in mouth and looking foolish, eh Chap ?

 

[37401]

waits for "If BR was running things..."

well maybe Intercity and NSE would have a price war

 

[Broken Viking]

waits for "If BR was running things..."
well maybe Intercity and NSE would have a price war

Could be quite interesting...Price war between InterCity (Western Region) and InterCity (Eastern Region), anyone?

Of course if BR were running things nowadays, a saver return between London and Glasgow via the WCML would be a much more reasonable £35.00.

Maybe someone ought to nudge both a certain Sir Branston Pickle and the MD of Ryanair in the general direction of this thread?...

 

[87015]

Try reading and comprehending what was written before putting foot in mouth and looking foolish, eh Chap ?

Be careful not to upset the Virgin worshippers, they get all tetchy!! Never done a thing wrong you know, all been a complete success...

 

[TEW]

Not the first price war this, FGW and ATW were at it for a while in 2007, made for some nice and cheap bashes that. Although the Any Permitted was still cheaper than the restricted tickets!

In the end the Any Permitted was cheaper as that was an ATW priced ticket so they just lowered that under the price of the newly introduced FGW Only flow.

 

[mrcheek]

Be careful not to upset the Virgin worshippers, they get all tetchy!! Never done a thing wrong you know, all been a complete success...

actually, I hate Virgin. Theyre responsible for the awful Voyagers and Pendolinos. So I have no reason to defend them.

But Ill defend them here. They are offering cut price fares. What could possibly be wrong with that?

There also seems to be another benefit, that ticket checks are being stepped up on LM services, thus meaning that fare dodgers, who cost us all money, are more likely to be caught.

All looks good to me. Perhaps Old Timer and 87015 could explain what is wrong with this. They seem very enthusiastic to express an opinion, without the benefit of being intelligent enough to actually form one!

 

[Old Timer]

Be careful not to upset the Virgin worshippers, they get all tetchy!! Never done a thing wrong you know, all been a complete success...

Thank you for the warning, old chap.

I must obviously occupy a parallel universe if that is the case.

 

[nedchester]

thus meaning that fare dodgers, who cost us all money, are more likely to be caught.

Always amuses me that kind of quote. Does anyone really think that if all the fare dodgers were caught then fare rises would be less???? Hmmm!!!

 

[mrcheek]

Always amuses me that kind of quote. Does anyone really think that if all the fare dodgers were caught then fare rises would be less???? Hmmm!!!

well, in theory its true! if all fare dodgers were caught, then the TOCs revenue would increase. Its possible they might then cut fares. or at least increase them by less. Or maybe just enjoy the extra profits....

I guess its like when the government cuts spending on something. We might assume we'll get the money back, in the form of a tax cut, but in reality, the government will just waste it on something else.

 

[nedchester]

well, in theory its true! if all fare dodgers were caught, then the TOCs revenue would increase. Its possible they might then cut fares. or at least increase them by less. Or maybe just enjoy the extra profits....

I guess its like when the government cuts spending on something. We might assume we'll get the money back, in the form of a tax cut, but in reality, the government will just waste it on something else.

Exactly........!

 

[poshbakerloo]

You get cut down VT prices when going from Macclesfield-Manchester I think its £2.50 or summit shockingly cheap!

 

[Old Timer]

All looks good to me. Perhaps Old Timer and 87015 could explain what is wrong with this. They seem very enthusiastic to express an opinion, without the benefit of being intelligent enough to actually form one!

Personal abuse just reflects badly upon yourself.

Had you BOTHERED to read the posts properly and comprehended what was said, you would not have made yourself look foolish with your comments.

If you have still not comprehended what was said then I suggest you read the posts again.

However for simplicity the point was that Virgin are very quick to make a fuss about any attempt by any other TOC who dares to tread on Virgin's toes.

They have been quite happy in the past to use all sorts of methods including friends in high places to stop competing TOCs from offering fares/services that undercut them. I even stated an example.

They were responsible for Chiltern Railways being unable to divert to Birmingham via Coventry during engineering work, yet when engineering work affected Virgin, they, through various means obtained the OK to divert over the Chiltern Railway route, AND insist on priority over Chiltern Railways trains services.

Having held the holier than though attitude about cheap fares which threaten their monopoly, they now see no hypocricy ?. Shades of BA again ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Always amuses me that kind of quote. Does anyone really think that if all the fare dodgers were caught then fare rises would be less???? Hmmm!!!

A quick Google shows that according to the BBC in August 2004 estimated fare evasion cost the Industry £200m.
BBC Report

Obviously there is no extrapolation to current value but personally as all our TOCs are living with financial support from the taxpayer, I would suggest that any reduction in public money would be a good thing, especially in view of where we are economically these days.

 

[glynn80]

However for simplicity the point was that Virgin are very quick to make a fuss about any attempt by any other TOC who dares to tread on Virgin's toes.

They have been quite happy in the past to use all sorts of methods including friends in high places to stop competing TOCs from offering fares/services that undercut them. I even stated an example.

They were responsible for Chiltern Railways being unable to divert to Birmingham via Coventry during engineering work, yet when engineering work affected Virgin, they, through various means obtained the OK to divert over the Chiltern Railway route, AND insist on priority over Chiltern Railways trains services.

Having held the holier than though attitude about cheap fares which threaten their monopoly, they now see no hypocricy ?. Shades of BA again ?

Virgin Trains are a business and there in the business to make a profit. If they have to "tread on the toes" of other TOCs to achieve this, then I am sure they will not be sweating over that decision.

When bidding for the West Coast franchise, Virgin legitimately negotiated a "moderation of competition" clause which protects particular flows they operate from being subject to competition by later franchisees. They negotiated the clause in return for an agreement by Virgin to make a substantial investment in infrastructure on said flows.

It is extremely naive of you to expect a company like Virgin not to enforce such a clause when other operators are potentially planning on operating on routes that will result in an extraction of significant proportions of their revenue (e.g. WSMR, ATW etc.)

 

[Old Timer]

Could you explain to me where I can see this vast investment in the Infrastructure, because the last time I checked Network Rail owned the track and signalling, VT leased the rolling stock, which is maintained under Contract, and many of the principal stations are owned by Network Rail.

Virgin's contribution to the WCRM Project was to object at every stage, and make the completion much more difficult than it need have been by insisting on running its normally late trains through the various work areas and then demanding that the line was reopened at the normal time, thus ensuring that much work had to be deferred. They then went on a public crusade of criticism and castigation when much of the delay causation had been created by their own intransigence, i.e. refusing to divert via Birmingham during TV Blockages.

I would also point out that Virgin have never met any of their francise committments, other than the continuing extraction of vast sums of money years after they promised to operate at a profit. Indeed they made such a shambles of Cross Country that it was taken off them.

And yet again another who has not read and understood the post :roll:

 

[tbtc]

Of course if BR were running things nowadays, a saver return between London and Glasgow via the WCML would be a much more reasonable £35.00.

...do you know what one cost in the final days of BR?

 

[glynn80]

Could you explain to me where I can see this vast investment in the Infrastructure, because the last time I checked Network Rail owned the track and signalling, VT leased the rolling stock, which is maintained under Contract, and many of the principal stations are owned by Network Rail.

My god you really have no idea how the UK rail franchising operates*!

The investment I mention above is the investment in new rolling stock for the West Coast mainline and Cross Country network. Whilst you have made the false assumption that it is the ROSCO that have made the decision to purchase said rolling stock all by themselves, it is of course the TOCs and the DfT who place orders with the ROSCOs and it is the TOCs that finance new rolling stock in the form of increased leasing costs (obviously the payback period for the ROSCOs spans many years but I can assure you it is the TOCs who are paying in the long term).

Virgin have also partly invested in many station projects in conjunction with Network Rail (who own practically every station on the National Rail network), for example the regeneration of Runcorn station completed in 2008 (http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2008/02/new-look-for-runcorn-station.html).

*If you want to learn more about the relationship between ROSCOs and the TOCs/DfT, the Competition Commission have produced a very detailed report which explains it in detail.

Virgin's contribution to the WCRM Project was to object at every stage, and make the completion much more difficult than it need have been...

Have you any evidence to back up these assertions or is this just more naive hear say?

...by insisting on running its normally late trains through the various work areas and then demanding that the line was reopened at the normal time, thus ensuring that much work had to be deferred.

Your complaining about Virgin Trains insisting that engineering work Network Rail was carrying out was completed on schedule so that it could run a consistent rail service?

I would also point out that Virgin have never met any of their francise committments, other than the continuing extraction of vast sums of money years after they promised to operate at a profit. Indeed they made such a shambles of Cross Country that it was taken off them.

Again any evidence to back up your claim that Virgin have never met "any" of their franchise commitments, as you can be well assured if they weren't the DfT would be straight in there with enforcement action NXEC style.

 

[nedchester]

A quick Google shows that according to the BBC in August 2004 estimated fare evasion cost the Industry £200m.
BBC Report

Obviously there is no extrapolation to current value but personally as all our TOCs are living with financial support from the taxpayer, I would suggest that any reduction in public money would be a good thing, especially in view of where we are economically these days.

True but some are of the opinion that fare rises would be less if there was less people fare evading. Maybe I'm cynical (OK I am!!) but I really don't think this would be the case.

I will say that some TOCs do seem to take the view that all passengers are out to fare evade and nail even the slightest breach of the 'rules'. This is especially the case in some Penalty Fare areas.

 

[Old Timer]

My god you really have no idea how the UK rail franchising operates*!

The investment I mention above is the investment in new rolling stock for the West Coast mainline and Cross Country network. Whilst you have made the false assumption that it is the ROSCO that have made the decision to purchase said rolling stock all by themselves, it is of course the TOCs and the DfT who place orders with the ROSCOs and it is the TOCs that finance new rolling stock in the form of increased leasing costs (obviously the payback period for the ROSCOs spans many years but I can assure you it is the TOCs who are paying in the long term).......

Oh dear, we really have touched a raw nerve here haven't we.

You repeat the Virgin spin about investing and yet in the same response you then go on to prove your argument wrong by confirming that the ROSCOS actually invest in the stock. In any "normal" investment a Company has to recover its investment costs over an extended period of time. Virgin simply leases the trains, courtesy of public money, and could walk away tomorrow if it suited with no liability at all.

.....Have you any evidence to back up these assertions or is this just more naive hear say?......

Experience from being IN the Industry and being part of the WCRM management team.

.....Your complaining about Virgin Trains insisting that engineering work Network Rail was carrying out was completed on schedule so that it could run a consistent rail service?......

Once again it is necessary to point out that you should read and COMPREHEND what is being said, rather than rushing in feet first with an attack on the poster based upon what you think was said. That way you can avoid making foolish comments such as this, because what you have stated was neither said nor intended, as a proper reading of the post will confirm.

....Again any evidence to back up your claim that Virgin have never met "any" of their franchise commitments, as you can be well assured if they weren't the DfT would be straight in there with enforcement action NXEC style.

Well lets look at the fact that they lost Cross Country. I am sure you will know why.

Lets then look at the lower fares promised, although some are very cheap, they are highly restricted and sold in controlled numbers making it rather hit and miss The closer you get to travel day the higher the prices become. I do not remember THAT being mentioned.

A committment was made about turning WC & XC to profit with a year or two, some 10 (?) years later, Virgin are STILL pulling an awful lot of money out of the public purse to run services they promised would actually contribute to the exchequer.

Oh and I forgot about the promised seat back TV screens. What we did get was a miserable attempt at providing a form of audio entertainment which failed to work properly from day 1 and which the vast majority of people now do not bother with as you only ever seem to be able to get Virgin radio. Strange that

I remember in the early days continually pointing out the fact that the system did not work, until it became obvious that there was neither the interest nor the will to maintain it.

 

[Geezertronic]

Be careful not to upset the Virgin worshippers, they get all tetchy!! Never done a thing wrong you know, all been a complete success...

You always get one or two who hate a particular TOC and usually their reasoning is not worth the keyboard it was typed on - they are having a go for the sake of having a go. Personally I can see past any criticism's and bland issues raised by certain people on this board because as a Brummie and as a frequent traveller by rail I am 95% happy with the performance of my local TOCs (or at least TOCs I use that run through the Birmingham area), but I will still fight the corner if I think someone is extracting the urine.

Virgin Trains and London Midland are not perfect and I would not expect them to be because nothing in life is ever 100% but I expect to be compensated should issues arise.

Virgin's customer service is poor in my opinion (I have no issues at all with their onboard service), but their response to an issue I had was more than satisfactory when I eventually received it. People complain about the Pendolino's but they fail to see the major positive impact that these sets have had on the WCML and the reduced journey times which cannot be achieved with Loco Hauled sets.

Each TOC has their own plus and minus points, and each person on this board has their own good and bad points about certain TOCs. That has nothing to do with getting tetchy....

 

[glynn80]

You repeat the Virgin spin about investing and yet in the same response you then go on to prove your argument wrong by confirming that the ROSCOS actually invest in the stock. In any "normal" investment a Company has to recover its investment costs over an extended period of time. Virgin simply leases the trains, courtesy of public money, and could walk away tomorrow if it suited with no liability at all.

:roll: Read above, I will not repeat what I have just stated.

Experience from being IN the Industry and being part of the WCRM management team.

Would you care to give a little more detail, because you'll have to excuse my skepticsm of someone claiming to be in the WCRM management but then makes posts extremely naively and with awful wording, grammar and spelling?

You also state in your post above "and many of the principal stations are owned by Network Rail" when anybody with even basic knowledge of the UK rail system knows that it is Network Rail who own all National Rail stations but only operate the large principal stations.

Once again it is necessary to point out that you should read and COMPREHEND what is being said, rather than rushing in feet first with an attack on the poster based upon what you think was said. That way you can avoid making foolish comments such as this, because what you have stated was neither said nor intended, as a proper reading of the post will confirm.

Well if you READ my post and looked at the grammar in the post, I placed a question mark at the end of the sentence signalling I did not understand what you were posting and therefore was seeking clarification. You stated "Virgin's contribution to the WCRM Project was to object at every stage, and make the completion much more difficult than it need have been by insisting on running its normally late trains through the various work areas and then demanding that the line was reopened at the normal time, thus ensuring that much work had to be deferred.". That post is extremely confusing. You do not explain what "normal time" means in this situation, I assumed that it meant the time schedule that Network Rail had drawn up on various engineering work blockades but then ran over schedule leaving Virgin with no way to operate any services (as happened with the Rugby engineering works in Christmas 2007, http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9162). If it did not mean this you'll have to explain as I am not psychic and cannot extract any other meaning from the above other than what I have already posted.

Well lets look at the fact that they lost Cross Country. I am sure you will know why.

Many well operated TOCs did not manage to retain their franchises when rebidding mainly because of the DfT's policy of not taking into account past performance as a significant factor in awarding bids to franchisees. For example First Great Eastern and Anglia Railways both of which were award-winning TOCs classed with doing excellent work in their respective areas, lost their franchises to National Express which at the time was quite a controversial decision, considering National Express's reputation for poor customer service (Central Trains etc.).

Lets then look at the lower fares promised, although some are very cheap, they are highly restricted and sold in controlled numbers making it rather hit and miss The closer you get to travel day the higher the prices become. I do not remember THAT being mentioned.

I'm sorry, does their franchise agreement state that they should introduce "Advance" fares? I think not, Advance fares are unregulated fares that TOCs have complete economic control over such fares. No franchise agreement has even stipulated any sort of regulation/implementation commitments for Advance fares or any other unregulated product. Perhaps you have confused public press statements with actual franchise commitments to the DfT.

A committment was made about turning WC & XC to profit with a year or two, some 10 (?) years later, Virgin are STILL pulling an awful lot of money out of the public purse to run services they promised would actually contribute to the exchequer.

This is a commitment they did not make, correct, but they did not break the terms of their contract mainly due to the problems that occurred with the WCRM and its extremely delayed completion, completely screwing up any economic forecasts that Virgin may have compiled in the early days of franchising.

Currently track-access charges are so high on the West Coast Mainline (due to NR trying to recoup its £8.6bn capital outlay) it is impossible for any company to run services that are sustainable without government support. Even in 2006 at the height of the economic boom, Virgin Trains won the franchise with an agreement to receive a £1.4bn over 5 years, if they won you can be pretty sure that there bid was not for the greatest subsidy (check FOI requests on the DfT website) and was most likely either the lowest or close to the lowest bid.

Oh and I forgot about the promised seat back TV screens. What we did get was a miserable attempt at providing a form of audio entertainment which failed to work properly from day 1 and which the vast majority of people now do not bother with as you only ever seem to be able to get Virgin radio. Strange that

Again not a franchise commitment, it was merely mentioned in a press release regarding the Pendolino, before the contract had even been awarded.

 

[northwichcat]

Virgin released VT Only off-peak Macclesfield-Manchester tickets cheaper than standard Northern tickets when they brought in the extra Manchester-London trains to try and fill up some of the many empty seats on the London trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

vast majority of people now do not bother with as you only ever seem to be able to get Virgin radio. Strange that

Yes that is very strange since Virgin Radio ceased to exist 12 months ago and had been something that Richard Branson had sold a long time ago.