Virgin, no window

[xydancer]

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it ignores pretty much whatever you ask for.

I regularly book in advance and request a seat in the quiet coach. I'm usually one of the first to book, but whatever I put in the system it invariably allocates 12A.

Given Pendolinos are fixed formation, is there any real reason why passengers cannot opt to pick a seat from a seating plan - as the airlines offer when you check in on-line?

 

[Zoe]

Given Pendolinos are fixed formation, is there any real reason why passengers cannot opt to pick a seat from a seating plan - as the airlines offer when you check in on-line?

XC offer this on their Voyagers. Unfrotunately it doesn't seem to work when the service is an HST.

 

[island]

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it ignores pretty much whatever you ask for.

I regularly book in advance and request a seat in the quiet coach. I'm usually one of the first to book, but whatever I put in the system it invariably allocates 12A.

Given Pendolinos are fixed formation, is there any real reason why passengers cannot opt to pick a seat from a seating plan - as the airlines offer when you check in on-line?

I wonder this as well. Irish Rail manages to offer seating plans despite running three different types of train.

 

[CosherB]

What made me chuckle was that the FC quiet coach is the one with the pan on the roof. Every time you go through a neutral section there is the unmistakeable (and quite intrusive) double bang as the breaker opens, even when travelling back to London with the pan down at that end. It was like there was a guy up there with a shotgun.

O L Leigh

Te he! Funny you should mention that - I had that very experience on Wednesday this week, Euston to Wilmslow. As a train buff, I found it quite interesting to find out where all the neutral sections are. But it is ironic that they made that the 'Quiet Coach'. Far preferable to mobiles and so-called 'personal' stereos, though, though you tend not to get the later in 1st (and when you do, the passengers are often discerning enough to have ditched the awful cheap, leaky Apple-standard headphones for something of better quality that doesn't leak).

 

[Pumbaa]

I regularly book in advance and request a seat in the quiet coach. I'm usually one of the first to book, but whatever I put in the system it invariably allocates 12A.

VT explained to the effect last year that the system allows a desirability value to be attached to each seat. The way the system works is by taking the matrix of values asked by the customer ie aisle, table, power point , and taking the best fit from a prescribed list of values, 1 per seat. The customers preference will be matched by the closest available match.

This system has 2 side effects, other than (in)effectively matching customer preferences;

1) it enables TOCs to block out seats for reservation, ie on VT coach E is un-reservable unless done right at the top by head office, to this extent the desirability value of these seats is 0, and the computer won't recognise them as seats that can be booked, as no-one wants them;
2) it means that TOCs can separate seats out, and book seats that no-one wants first. Thus low value Advance Purchase tickets can be given seats with a low desirability value, ie no view, no table. In the case above, A12A is obviously the one the system is told to chuck out first.

The only problem this then creates is that people booking off-peak returns etc get shafted with poor seats if they're not already booked when going through an online system. Going to the station gets around this issue.

Although interestingly, recently I have been able to get 'good' seat allocations on full price tickets when going online, but that wasn't occurring a while ago. Does anyone know if the system can differentiate between the differing ticket types? Ie Anytime or Advance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But it is ironic that they made that the 'Quiet Coach'.

I'm fairly sure that Coach G was the Quiet Coach to begin with, the theory being that as it was at the end of FC less traffic etc. The two unintentional side effects being everyone tramped into G from SC expecting to find more Standard, and when services were busy it was declassified and now no FC Quiet Coach. So they made H the Quiet Coach instead.

 

[Greenback]

1) it enables TOCs to block out seats for reservation, ie on VT coach E is un-reservable unless done right at the top by head office, to this extent the desirability value of these seats is 0, and the computer won't recognise them as seats that can be booked, as no-one wants them;
2) it means that TOCs can separate seats out, and book seats that no-one wants first. Thus low value Advance Purchase tickets can be given seats with a low desirability value, ie no view, no table. In the case above, A12A is obviously the one the system is told to chuck out first.

That makes sense, as whenever I have had a cheap advance ticket, I;ve had a lousy seat!

 

[Zoe]

That makes sense, as whenever I have had a cheap advance ticket, I;ve had a lousy seat!

Luckily most guards don't seem to enforce the rule about sitting in your booked seat though.

 

[Greenback]

True, but the system does seem to give them out if you don't pay enough!!!

 

[tbtc]

That makes sense, as whenever I have had a cheap advance ticket, I;ve had a lousy seat!

I think that's probably a fair way to do it.

 

[Zoe]

Should you get a free seat reservation with an advance fare? The fares are so cheap that it could be argued that you should either take your chance on the day or pay a reserrvation fee. If a reservation fee was charged then this could be refundable as currently there are often quite a few unused reserved seats.

 

[junglejames]

Should you get a free seat reservation with an advance fare? The fares are so cheap that it could be argued that you should either take your chance on the day or pay a reserrvation fee. If a reservation fee was charged then this could be refundable as currently there are often quite a few unused reserved seats.

Yes, free reservations should always be available. Dont give the TOCs any more money!!
The only difference is, the rules either need to change saying you dont need to sit in your reserved seat (as usually you havent actually asked for the reservation), or they need to give you the choice when you book, even on advance tickets. Reservation, or no reservation.

I hardly sit in my reserved seats anyway. If i havent asked for it, the likelihood is, I dont want it. I can nearly always find a better seat elsewhere.

Plus, I wouldnt dare reserve a seat on a pendo (if i did travel far enough on them to warrant it). Far too many awful seats.

 

[Zoe]

Yes, free reservations should always be available. Dont give the TOCs any more money!!

So you pay £10 for a dirt cheap fare and get a guarantreed seat. You pay £100 for an Anytime fare and can't get a seat as they've all been taken by people paying a tenth of what you paid. How is that fair?

 

[tbtc]

Yes, free reservations should always be available

They should be available to people buying full price tickets. But should they be available on "journey specific" ones? Why should I stand whilst someone who paid a fraction of the price sits?

 

[Class 33]

I rarely ever sit in my reserved seats anymore, unless its a very busy service meaning I'd have to stand unless I sat in my reserved seat. Most of the times my reserved seats are lousy seats. Window seats next to a pillar, facing the wrong direction of travel, or worst still aisle seats. I can usually find much better unreserved seats on the trains.

 

[junglejames]

So you pay £10 for a dirt cheap fare and get a guarantreed seat. You pay £100 for an Anytime fare and can't get a seat as they've all been taken by people paying a tenth of what you paid. How is that fair?

Two possiblities: Either the TOCs reduce the number of advance tickets (anyway, you dont get many for a tenner), and reduce the cost of the other tickets as well. Thus less likely for advance tickets to take the whole train up
Or: Are we saying this service is overcrowded? Well then the TOC should have already added extra coaches or services. We know why they havent done (it'll be too expensive), but it is the fault of the TOC why you dont get a seat, and it shouldnt be held against people who may be only able to afford cheap tickets.

I dont distinguish between the 2 fares. Its the TOCs fault for any problems like this, and they should sort it out, possibly wwith one of the 2 options specified.

I firmly believe reservations should be free for all, but it should be up to you if you want a reservation, even on advance tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I rarely ever sit in my reserved seats anymore, unless its a very busy service meaning I'd have to stand unless I sat in my reserved seat. Most of the times I get lousy seats. Window seats next to a pillar, facing the wrong direction of travel, or worst still aisle seats.

Exactly the same with me. Coming back from Sheffield to London with EMT the other day, if I had sat in my reserved seat, Id have had 2/3 other people around the table with me all the way to London. Sitting in an unreserved seat, and for most of the journey, I had the table to myself, and never had anyone opposite me, so plenty of room to stretch out.

Considering I had never asked for a reservation (and I wouldnt have done if i had the choice), I see no harm in it and will continue to do it.

 

[Zoe]

One coach is usually kept unreserved but all reservable seats are available for advance fares. It's possible the entire train except for the unreserved coach could be filled with advance resrevations leaving nothing for people paying full fare. If you fly with Ryanair the fares are dirt cheap and you don't get a reservation, you take your chance like everyone else when you get on the plane. I will still say that it's unfair to have paid full fare and have to stand as you didn't join at the start of the journey so the unreserved coach is full and every seat in the reservable coaches has been taken by people that paid rock bottom fares in advance. If you want dirt cheap fares than you should have to take your chance on the day.

 

[SS4]

So you pay £10 for a dirt cheap fare and get a guarantreed seat. You pay £100 for an Anytime fare and can't get a seat as they've all been taken by people paying a tenth of what you paid. How is that fair?

A spurious comparison since there are (next to) no advance tickets at peak times (the only time someone would use an anytime over off peak). A better comparison would be the approx £40 off-peak fare.

Seat reservations should remain free as they are a part of Advance tickets and as has been said there are few in number at such a low price. They [advance] tickets are not flexible and an anytime or off-peak can always get a different train. The cost comes from flexibility since only walk up fares would not have a reservation

 

[Zoe]

A spurious comparison since there are (next to) no advance tickets at peak times (the only time someone would use an anytime over off peak). A better comparison would be the approx £40 off-peak fare.

Sorry but it is not spurious, on some routes the off peak fares is actually near £100 never mind the anytime fare. Adavance fares are availabe for a fraction ot this. You say advance fares have a reservation but that is just stating the current sitaution. The question is why should someone that has paid a fraction of the cost get a guarantreed seat? If you want these rock bottom fares then why should you have to take your change on the day? Fact is that off peak all reservable seats can be taken up by advance fares leaving nothing for people that don't book in advance. Super Saver fares used to be quite reaonable until the mid 2000s when the TOCs decided that anyone that couldn't plan their travel in advance should have to pay through the roof for it and not even be guarantreed a seat.

 

[SS4]

Sorry but it is not spurious, on some routes the off peak fares is actually near £100 never mind the anytime fare. Adavance fares are availabe for a fraction ot this. You say advance fares have a reservation but that is just stating the current sitaution. The question is why should someone that has paid a fraction of the cost get a guarantreed seat? If you want these rock bottom fares then why should you have to take your change on the day? Fact is that off peak all reservable seats can be taken up by advance fares leaving nothing for people that don't book in advance. Super Saver fares used to be quite reaonable until the mid 2000s when the TOCs decided that anyone that couldn't plan their travel in advance should have to pay through the roof for it and not even be guarantreed a seat.

I don't know many TOCs that will release all the seats on a train to advance fares, purely based on what I've seen there are only ever a limited number (perhaps only one coach). Fair enough about the expensive off peaks yet seat reservations are available up to two hours before departure

I'd imagine the guaranteed seat is because it would be otherwise too difficult to check that an advance customer was getting on the correct train due to space constraints on the main ticket. Granted this does not touch upon whether they should be free or not and they could do what chiltern do with the unspecified seat so it's essentially first come, first served. How would you expand it though? Should season ticket holders get first dibs so to speak? Advance tickets, used correctly, are just as valid as any other kind of ticket for that train, it doesn't seem right to treat them worse because they had the foresight to plan and book well in advance.

I agree with you on the saver fares but that's a whole new can of worms

 

[Zoe]

it doesn't seem right to treat them worse because they had the foresight to plan and book well in advance.

But don't you think it unfairly punishes people that are not able to plan their journey well in advance? One reason off peak fares have gone through the roof in recent years is that these advance fares are available, there's no way a TOC would make a profit on advance fares alone considering how cheap they area. In theory adding a reservation fee would allow for Off Peak fares to be cheaper but I expect the TOCs would actually prefer the extra money to go to their shareholders.

 

[Pumbaa]

But don't you think it unfairly punishes people that are not able to plan their journey well in advance? One reason off peak fares have gone through the roof in recent years is that these advance fares are available, there's no way a TOC would make a profit on advance fares alone considering how cheap they area. In theory adding a reservation fee would allow for Off Peak fares to be cheaper but I expect the TOCs would actually prefer the extra money to go to their shareholders.

My solution to this would be that Advance ticket holders are tied to a train/service, but should they wish to make a reservation it is available at a charge. Anytime/Off-Peak or full fare tickets are entitled to free seat reservations.

Although there would be in theory nothing stopping an Advance ticket holder walking up to a station ticket office and requesting a reservation!

 

[Zoe]

Although there would be in theory nothing stopping an Advance ticket holder walking up to a station ticket office and requesting a reservation!

Well then you would charge them for it. I also think any reservation fee should be refundable though so that people that decide not to travel or leaving reserved seats on the train that will not be used.

 

[Pumbaa]

Well then you would charge them for it. I also think any reservation fee should be refundable though so that people that decide not to travel or leaving reserved seats on the train that will not be used.

Absolutely - personally I think all tickets should be fully refundable and changeable without an admin fee. Its a good way to make rail more attractive, although we also need to increase capacity...! Flexibility can only be a good thing.

 

[island]

Although there would be in theory nothing stopping an Advance ticket holder walking up to a station ticket office and requesting a reservation!

Would they not already have a mandatory reservation for all reservable parts of their journey?

 

[MCR247]

Yes, but you need to read the post in its original context

 

[chuckles1066]

They are still classifed as window seats though, even if you have limited/ no view.

Blimey, see the other thread about what buying a first class ticket actually entitles you to..........makes me question why first class even exists?

Here's an idea........do away with it and put more cattle class coaches on.

If not, why not?

 

[MCR247]

The high fares of First class subsides the low fares of standard class. Simples.

 

[chuckles1066]

The high fares of First class subsides the low fares of standard class. Simples.

And commuter fares subsidise Ethel and Sid on their annual off-peak jolly to Margate.

Where do you draw the line?

 

[Greenback]

You need to look at the whole ethos of public transport provision. In London, the commuters carried by rail could not feasibly be carried by any other mode - as the trains and infrastructure have to be there to take people in and out of the city for the good of the economy, then we might as well allow Ethel and Sid to travel to Margate during the day or weekend at lower prices!

All taxpayers subsidise the railway network one way or another. The current policy of government is to reduce the proportion of subisdy paid by taxpayers and increase the proportion provided by the people who actually use the system. I;m not saying that is right or wrong, but someone will need to propsoe a radically different set up in order to alter the status quo!

 

[Zoe]

Remember there are some routes that simply can't make a profit so subsidy is needed either from the taxpayer or the farepayer. The alternative is to not run the service at all. Personally I don't think this should be an option but some people would say that if the service can't make a profit then it's not up to other people (farepayers or taxpayers) to fund something they don't use. This is not my personal opinion but as an argument I often hear.