Virgin High Freq. Timetable

[Pumbaa]

Right:

- Just how exactly are Virgin planning to recover from a serious delay on one service, with their new VHF? As far as I can see, there is little scope for recovery with trains running so often, especially with the 3 per hour London ta Manchester. It seems almost suicidal, as only one train has to be held by 20 mins before the entire operation becomes a joke. I know they are planning to reduce intermediate station stops such as Watford and Tamworth, but that can't save much time can it? And plus they are effectively working with only 53 Pendolinos and (9)? Super Vomits; it's gonna be a while before their new stock arrives.

- How are they coping with the hugely increased number of crew hours needed? They can't ask crew to do more runs, as they need their breaks et al. Surely the financial return can't be that massive by increasing their services by 25%?

- With the negligible financial return, what's going to happen to fares? Is there any regulation on freezing them - in particular FC? Especially considering the number of FC hosts they need to have, and the food etc.

- Is there actually that large a demand for the VHF? The London - Birmingham is now supplemented by half-hourly Desiros from Euston, and other destinations can be easily reached with only changing once.

- To me, the only service that isn't benefiting is the Liverpool service. Is this because it's so lightly loaded it doesn't need extra services? Or are they working on the premise Liverpool passengers can travel via Crewe or Manchester?

- Lastly, what's in it for Virgin? They have very little competition on their long distance routes, and with the extra stock and carriages arriving within 3 years, it seems to me that capacity will soon be easily provided. It just seems like they are creating themselves all this extra hassle for nothing.

I really hope that this isn't another repeat of Operation Princess - which was , quite frankly, a balls up.

 

[yorkie]

- Lastly, what's in it for Virgin? They have very little competition on their long distance routes, and with the extra stock and carriages arriving within 3 years, it seems to me that capacity will soon be easily provided. It just seems like they are creating themselves all this extra hassle for nothing.

Well if they don't comply with the DfT's timetable it's time to hand back the keys! Virgin are creating nothing for themselves as it's not up to them what the timetable looks like.

As for the other questions, I could only speculate...

 

[me123]

What it will do is create travel opertunities for everyone. More people will be able to travel across the country, and that includes the lightly loaded Glasgow services which will now be hourly to London and two-hourly to Birmingham. A really good service can hopefully reduce flights from Glasgow to London, but as mentioned reliability will be an issue. Hopefully the service will be reliable enough to deem the operation a success...

 

[Mintona]

Turn up and go - gotta be good? Never havig to wait more than 20mins for a train to Manchester, and it takes not long over 2 hours? Seems like a great improvement to me.
Class 390s don't seem to fail too much. Most common seems to be door failures and the like, which rarely occur in the middle of a run anyway.

 

[rail-britain]

With regards to the high frequency services (specifically Manchester)
In the event that the delays become long-term, then one train will eventually be cancelled en-route and including the equivalent return service
This will realign the service back into alignment
There will also be a "spare" Class 390 at Euston, due to the way the diagrams are going to be scheduled
The "spare" Class 390 will then operate on an earlier diagram and when the delayed train arrives it will then transfer to the "spare" diagram

One major change for passengers between Scotland and the North West is the almost complete non-stop operation of services to Euston, once they are between Warrington and Euston

The financial return will remain about the same; journey times are shorter and the number of seats per hour between destinations increases slightly

The same occured with ScotRail services many years ago, between Glasgow and Edinburgh, when the timetable went from 2 trains per hour to 4 trains per hour
Again, when there are major delays, some services are cancelled en-route, the return service is cancelled, and in extreme cases a lower frequency is introduced
Also, the same happened earlier when Glasgow - Aberdeen services were increased from two hourly to hourly
Capacity was almost haved per train, but the number of seats per hour remained the same

 

[furryfeet]

reliability is one thing, but....
as suggested above, it remains to be seen as to whether fares will be marketed at attractive enough levels to fill the increased number of seats, otherwise the travel opportunities are wasted.

Is there any evidence that virgin are planning a marketing drive ?

 

[37402]

Well if they don't comply with the DfT's timetable it's time to hand back the keys! Virgin are creating nothing for themselves as it's not up to them what the timetable looks like.

It isn't a D(a)fT requirement to introduce the VHF timetable, it is purely a commercial venture by Virgin. Bit of a gamble really as, if it doesn't work, it won't look good for the next franchise. However, as most of the management from XC is now with West Coast, one would hope that lessons learnt from Princess have been transferred across with them.

Expect a BIG marketing push for the new timetable once the Rugby farce has been sorted out (I say sorted out...)

 

[rail-britain]

Kind of chicken and the egg this...

Although there is an increased number of seats, this will only cover the expected increase in passenger numbers
As passengers enjoy more frequency, passenger numbers increase
As passenger numbers increase, capacity is almost reached

The same has occured on ScotRail between Glasgow and Edinburgh, with services now carrying more people per hour than they used to when the frequency was 30 minutes

I personally have my doubts about increasing the frequency to Euston from Glasgow, to every hour
This will give more choice and better connections north of Glasgow
Also, many services are very lightly occupied between Glasgow and Carlisle, hence why many services in the past only went as far as Preston
Retaining a two hourly frequency, with two non-stop services, would have been my proposal
However, if here is a blockage north of Carlisle, the number of trains trapped and inevitably causing further delays throughout the day increases massively

 

[class 313]

Thameslink has this problem through the Snow Hill Tunnel area.

Once a train gets delayed over 10 mins, it can cause chaos. The way FCC like most TOC's would do to deal with this is to terminate trains early and turn them back to where they came until service can be ran again. Then services can become fast when used to be semi fast, or fast trains become slow trains to pick up stranded passengers...

 

[yorkie]

It isn't a D(a)fT requirement to introduce the VHF timetable, it is purely a commercial venture by Virgin. Bit of a gamble really as, if it doesn't work, it won't look good for the next franchise. However, as most of the management from XC is now with West Coast, one would hope that lessons learnt from Princess have been transferred across with them.

So is it not true that the DfT are responsible for Nuneaton losing it's service in the new timetable? I am sure Virgin said DfT set the timetable so are responsible :???:

 

[87015]

So is it not true that the DfT are responsible for Nuneaton losing it's service in the new timetable? I am sure Virgin said DfT set the timetable so are responsible :???:

Don't tell me you are still listening to the Virgin Spin Rail PR Machine?!?!?:roll:

VHF = Very High Farce!!

 

[Pumbaa]

Class 390s don't seem to fail too much. Most common seems to be door failures and the like, which rarely occur in the middle of a run anyway.

True - they tend to be at their worst when they are low-speed running, during times of huge engineering works.

Funnily enough, had a door problem yesterday on the 0917 ex Euston - although it wasn't the trains fault. The TM tried to open the doors as the train was sidling into Lime Street - EMG brake application, and the electronic warning voice sounded very annoyed.... "Interlock fault - Immediate reset required" D'oh!

 

[37402]

So is it not true that the DfT are responsible for Nuneaton losing it's service in the new timetable? I am sure Virgin said DfT set the timetable so are responsible :???:

Obviously DafT will set the minimum service levels and which stations will receive a service or not, but over and above that it is up to the operator to decide on frequencies etc. These changes would have had to happen irrespective of whether VHF was taking place or not.

 

[rail-britain]

As above, DfT outline the service level and requirements
Virgin Trains then work with NR to compile a timetable proposal, to meet or exceed that
DfT then publish the consultation

When the West Coast franchise was extended in 2005, Virgin Trains agreed to the increased service plan which would be provided by DfT (or the SRA as it was then), so it's no real surprise that Virgin Trains claim they were responsible for the project

However, input was also taken at the inital consultation stage from GoVia and Transpennine, and I really like this quote from DfT :
This exercise covers the particular services of three train operators, Virgin WestCoast, TPE and Govia (the new operators of the West Midlands franchise), operating along the West Coast Main Line. They are in the process of communicating with interested parties over all their services. It is important that stakeholders liaise with such operators and others, to get the wider picture
From that it would appear that any other operator on the WCML had no input!

 

[me123]

What are the turnaround times for Glasgow and Liverpool, where there probably won't be a spare unit floating around?

 

[jv3531]

Before XC won their part of the franchise, Virgin had long planned for this on the south/western corridor services. We did end up with an improved half-hourly service particularly between bristol - birmingham extended north with a mixture of ECML/WCML routes. However we did loose the long hauls such as the dundee - penzance and return equivallant, but smaller stations such as Aschurch and Pilning gained services which hadn't been there before. As far as delays go, plymouth end is usually backed up by exeter/par spares - it has been known for 142s/150s (Yes! [142067? was the last one 2 weeks ago at least) to be drafted in as far as bristol to replace voyagers to avoid cancellation so comendation to XC for that one, better than some FGW ones that I know of!.

As part of the WCML upgrade this has been planned for several years now so I'm sure they have it covered. One of the benifits (alledgedly) from HFTs is that the loadings of certain services should (although this doesn't always happen - if you turn up for the 17.00 you are going to want to catch that one, not wait for the 17.20 because it MAY BE less crowded!) be reduced to ease overcrowding. With any change there will always be cutbacks to improve others and our local line is no exception - they wanted hourly services and got it but with cut backs and consequent retimingins on others.

 

[devon_metro]

Before XC won their part of the franchise, Virgin had long planned for this on the south/western corridor services. We did end up with an improved half-hourly service particularly between bristol - birmingham extended north with a mixture of ECML/WCML routes. However we did loose the long hauls such as the dundee - penzance and return equivallant, but smaller stations such as Aschurch and Pilning gained services which hadn't been there before. As far as delays go, plymouth end is usually backed up by exeter/par spares - it has been known for 142s/150s (Yes! [142067? was the last one 2 weeks ago at least) to be drafted in as far as bristol to replace voyagers to avoid cancellation so comendation to XC for that one, better than some FGW ones that I know of!.

Such as this?

142030 went to Bristol with apparently 150/1 coupling at Temple Meads.

Failure of 43151 on 1A85 0541 PNZ-PAD at Plymouth meant the stock for the HST was nabed for 1Z85 0849 EXD-PAD

 

[jv3531]

Correct! 9S49 0625 Plymouth - Edinburgh Waverley was 142067 vice a 221 between Plymouth & Bristol TM on 4th August, bet there wern't no onboard shop though:grin:

 

[TEW]

bet there wern't no onboard shop though:grin:

I would pay to see them try to set up a shop on a 142.

 

[Coradia]

Looks like petitions are starting to come in for this:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/nuneaton-rail/

In all fairness, Nuneaton really are segregated (if not completely) from this. I know that it is all part of the speeding up plan, but Nuneaton provides a really important interchange to Leicester and Peterborough from the WCML. Apparently there is a London Midland semi fast from Nuneaton to London every hour from December, but nothing dedicated for those travelling North. Does the Liverpool service really need to go straight through?

Makes you wonder whether it would now be possible to re-introduce a direct service from the East through Nuneaton (e.g. Nottingham to Coventry) since these were stopped to allow faster WCML intercity times, but since the introduction of the new platforms and flyovers, it might be able to be done (possibly not a reversal back to Coventry but carrying on to Brum or Crewe). After all that XC section gets pretty packed from time to time.

 

[alex57601]

- To me, the only service that isn't benefiting is the Liverpool service. Is this because it's so lightly loaded it doesn't need extra services? Or are they working on the premise Liverpool passengers can travel via Crewe or Manchester?

Fleet constraints is the major issue here. This will be rectified when the four new Pendo's arrive as I believe it will allow Virgin to introduce a half-hourly frequency to Liverpool Lime St.

Also for Lime St (at the risk of contradicting myself) there are only two, yes two, platforms there which can take a Pendo. Platforms 1-6 are used by Northern/TPE/LM and are probably no longer than 6-coaches long and Platform 9 will result in a bit of overhanging, so you only ever see a Pendo on Platform 7 or 8.

 

[The Planner]

Makes you wonder whether it would now be possible to re-introduce a direct service from the East through Nuneaton (e.g. Nottingham to Coventry) since these were stopped to allow faster WCML intercity times, but since the introduction of the new platforms and flyovers, it might be able to be done (possibly not a reversal back to Coventry but carrying on to Brum or Crewe). After all that XC section gets pretty packed from time to time.

Not unless you do some sort of mad reversal at Abbey Jn for Cov and the Nuneaton North chord is a good few years away yet to do a Crewe.

 

[Coradia]

Not unless you do some sort of mad reversal at Abbey Jn for Cov and the Nuneaton North chord is a good few years away yet to do a Crewe.

Guess we will just have to put up with XC turbostars for a few more years then .