Virgin guard acts disgracefully?

[djw1981]

the moon landing,

What moon landing! To quote a former shock jock in the north east "it was all filmed ona derelict plot in Byker with the earth grafitti'd on a wall."

 

[Spaceflower]

dont worry, if this thread deviates much more, it may end up landing on the moon.

 

[Metroland]

Anyway, being the fair sort of chap am I thought I'd say I've just heard a radio interview with this chap, and it does seem than the TM called 'Simon' was a bit over zealous to say the least. That said, Virgin have backed him and said the guard was right to charge her extra (personally I don't agree - but don't forget there is CCTV on these trains and staff could lose their job)- it would have happened on other transport companies. So really the dispute is now down to the system of advanced booking and whether a TOC can charge the full fare for an obvious mistake.

 

[TheSlash]

1A38 : I've got this as a VT service between Bangor and London Euston, doesn't go anywhere near Manchester!

Stamped in purple ink, bottom right hand corner of the ticket.

 

[crewmeal]

So really the dispute is now down to the system of advanced booking and whether a TOC can charge the full fare for an obvious mistake.

In that case we are all at the hands of idiots who put us on wrong trains and we have to pay the penalty!!! - Customer service 2008? forget it.

 

[bluenoxid]

What moon landing! To quote a former shock jock in the north east "it was all filmed ona derelict plot in Byker with the earth grafitti'd on a wall."

Well it is on the flaming moon (although I will be there is 30 minutes shopping at the Morrisons there). Heuston, this packet of chips is one small step for man but one huge step for studentkind

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....What exactly is meant by a 'printed travel itinerary', sounds to me like the A4 peice of paper they print off with your seat reservation on it that they give you at the station (I know Piccadilly do this)....

....If she had the advanced ticket, it surely would have come with a compulsory seat reservation ticket with a code matching to the advanced ticket. If that seat was valid for the 10:15, then yes, that onboard guy was an idiot. But I wouldn't be suprised if the reservation ticket was for the original 10:45....

If the ticket was bought at a Northern rail ticket office, the 'itinerary' would have been printed on a receipt roll (like you get at Burger King!) and would NOT have the reservation on it, a seperate seat reservation ticket would have been issued, with the 'advance' ticket, with 'issued with ticket number xxxxx' printed on it, and the ticket would have 'valid with seat reservation' printed on it.

 

[rmt]

1A38 : I've got this as a VT service between Bangor and London Euston, doesn't go anywhere near Manchester!

1A38 - 10:15 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston, calling at Stockport, Stoke on Trent and London Euston.

Looking at the time of issue on the Penalty Ticket, it was issued somewhere near Armitage and Lichfield Trent Valley.

She needed to get 1A43 - 10:45 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston, which calls at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke on Trent, Watford Junction and London Euston.

Sometimes its easier to blame the train companies, which often have many complaints to deal with a day, than actually look at who is really at fault.

As for the comment about the TM going to work in a Prison, trust me, they wouldn't be given the time of day within a prison for that sort of behaviour...,

 

[Mojo]

1A38 : I've got this as a VT service between Bangor and London Euston, doesn't go anywhere near Manchester!

I've also got this showing (amongst others) as the weekday 1015 Manchester to Euston!

 

[rail-britain]

Apologies, 1A38 from December 2008 is a 12:17 Bangor - Euston

 

[me123]

I have to say that the TM was to call the police for the comedian guy; publicity stunts aside, this was a nice gsture helping out a fellow human in need.

As to if she was on the correct train, I will reserve judgement. Sadly, I have to say the TM would probably be correct in charging the full fare, but if there was enough evidence in front of him to say that it was a simple mistake, I'd have personally let her off.

Actually, I have seen passengers on Scotrail being let off using AP tickets on the wrong train a couple of times. On both, they were told that they would accept the ticket because both were genuine mistakes (I'm basing this on the passenger's reactions and believe that this was true in these circumstances).

 

[yorkie]

A bit more info here: http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/n...____train_manager_reduces_pensioner_to_tears/

As for the guard...

Now those of us who travel regularly on Virgin have met Simon. He is always very thorough with his ticketing regime, oh and he never smiles. Apparently, Virgin Trains have backed Simon's side of the story and he was right to charge her extra. Believe me - there are worse Train Managers on Virgin Trains - there is Alan and of course the Brummie, Derek, who I noticed now does not even mention his name in on-train announcements. Perhaps Derek is too ashamed of publicly revealing himself after his antics were revealed to the world on here (slightly OT, but I travelled on another of Derek's services from Coventry to Watford where there was no promised ticket check).

Anyone else know of him?

If I heard he was on a train I was on, I'd be sure to walk through the carriages in advance of a ticket check and inform all the customers of exactly who he is, so that everyone could ask him for his thoughts on the matter. It would be interesting to hear his views.

 

[Bayum]

A bit more info here: http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/n...____train_manager_reduces_pensioner_to_tears/

As for the guard...



Anyone else know of him?

If I heard he was on a train I was on, I'd be sure to walk through the carriages in advance of a ticket check and inform all the customers of exactly who he is, so that everyone could ask him for his thoughts on the matter. It would be interesting to hear his views.

Gosh!! You must have amazing confidence and charisma to do that !!

 

[Mintona]

A bit more info here: http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/n...____train_manager_reduces_pensioner_to_tears/

As for the guard...



Anyone else know of him?

If I heard he was on a train I was on, I'd be sure to walk through the carriages in advance of a ticket check and inform all the customers of exactly who he is, so that everyone could ask him for his thoughts on the matter. It would be interesting to hear his views.

Are you really that arrogant? He only did his job.

When she booked the ticket, she must have known it was for a specific train. So why should she be able to travel on a different one without paying for it?

 

[Beaker]

Ahh the daily mail well known for its honest opinions and never over dramatises a situation and non bias views :roll:

 

[Tom C]

If I heard he was on a train I was on, I'd be sure to walk through the carriages in advance of a ticket check and inform all the customers of exactly who he is, so that everyone could ask him for his thoughts on the matter. It would be interesting to hear his views.

Instead of asking the punters, why don't you go up to the guard and ask him what he thinks?

I am sure he would be more than happy to speak to you and it certainly makes for better scandel then shi-tstiring.

Perhaps you could ask the Daily Mail if they want to buy your interview, after all they already buy any old crap.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I heard he was on a train I was on, I'd be sure to walk through the carriages in advance of a ticket check and inform all the customers of exactly who he is, so that everyone could ask him for his thoughts on the matter. It would be interesting to hear his views.

Instead of asking the punters, why don't you go up to the guard and ask him what he thinks?

I am sure he would be more than happy to speak to you and it certainly makes for better scandel then shi-tstiring.

Perhaps you could ask the Daily Mail if they want to buy your interview, after all they already buy any old crap.

 

[yorkie]

Are you really that arrogant? He only did his job.

When she booked the ticket, she must have known it was for a specific train. So why should she be able to travel on a different one without paying for it?

If he was "only doing his job", why have Virgin apologised and given her a lift back to the station and upgraded her to First Class?

If he was "only doing his job", why did he call BTP to threaten the good samaritan? (Only for BTP to walk away when they realised how ridiciulous it was, and a total waste of police time - which, in itself, is an offence by the way!)

I also dispute that she "must" have known. You are not a mindreader. As for arrogance, you appear to have a Basil Fawlty-style attitude that the customer is always wrong! Your employers see it rather differently.

 

[djw1981]

Or Virgin know crap media coverage when they see it and want to create some good media coverage.....the world of PR is often about doing things 'without admitting any fault or liability'.

Besides all companies have bad staff who break rules, fail to understand them etc and they should be re-trained, or sacked. The alleged excuse by others that 'maybe he had a bad day' doesn't wash - you leave personal problems at the door and you put on your professional attitude. If the problem in your life prevents you doing that then you are not safe to ensure the security of the train in an incident, and should call in sick or ask for LoA! In Safety critical jobs there is no room for personal emotions.

 

[Mintona]

If he was "only doing his job", why have Virgin apologised and given her a lift back to the station and upgraded her to First Class?

If he was "only doing his job", why did he call BTP to threaten the good samaritan? (Only for BTP to walk away when they realised how ridiciulous it was, and a total waste of police time - which, in itself, is an offence by the way!)

I also dispute that she "must" have known. You are not a mindreader. As for arrogance, you appear to have a Basil Fawlty-style attitude that the customer is always wrong! Your employers see it rather differently.

Not at all. Usually, the customer is right, and they have every right to compensation etc. However, Virgin have stated that they support the TM (I can't remember where I read that, but I did somewhere).

I fully agree that the BTP shouldn't have been involved. That was taking it far too far. The lady was upset and stressed. That is why VT have apologised.

Can I just ask how you get advance tickets for a train without knowing which train they are valid on? You try booking advance tickets without knowing which train to go on. The time is printed on the ticket. It's not rocket science.

If you ever saw me at work, you'd see how much I care about the customers. I have been offered monitary tips on numerous occasions, but have never agreed to take them. To say that "I think the customer is always wrong" without knowing a thing about how I work is dispicable.

However, I do apologise for suggesting you are arrogant.

In Safety critical jobs there is no room for personal emotions.

If we were robots, I would agree. But we aren't.

 

[me123]

I have to agree with Miintona. The guard did do what he was required to do, and that was sell a new ticket. I would personally have probably let her off as it clearly was a simple honest mistake on someone's part, but it does depend on the circumstances. If the check happened before, say, Stockport or another station where the 10.15 and 10.45 both make a stop, then I might have advised her to get off there and onto the next train an wouldn't have charged anything. This is mostly because I'm a big softy with not much of a spine, though. As I've already said, the TM was only doing his job in this case, even though he was on the harsh side.

As I've said earlier, calling the polis absolutely laughable. A waste of police time is all it was, and there certainly is not a crime against charity.

 

[Mintona]

I have to agree with Miintona. The guard did do what he was required to do, and that was sell a new ticket. I would personally have probably let her off as it clearly was a simple honest mistake on someone's part, but it does depend on the circumstances. If the check happened before, say, Stockport or another station where the 10.15 and 10.45 both make a stop, then I might have advised her to get off there and onto the next train an wouldn't have charged anything. This is mostly because I'm a big softy with not much of a spine, though. As I've already said, the TM was only doing his job in this case, even though he was on the harsh side.

As I've said earlier, calling the polis absolutely laughable. A waste of police time is all it was, and there certainly is not a crime against charity.

Thank you. That's what I'm trying to say. In the situation, I would have probably done the same as you have described. But still people argue, where in effect, we are united.

 

[yorkie]

As I've said earlier, calling the polis absolutely laughable. A waste of police time is all it was, and there certainly is not a crime against charity.

I'm glad that you admit he was wasting police time, although you appear not to realise that wasting police time is an offence and he could have been charged for it.

 

[AlexS]

It's all very interesting to read the responses on this thread.

Personally, I think Virgin train crew are as a general rule excellent - but on the other hand, a lot of them seem to be very young (and that includes cross country who've inherited a lot of them) and inexperienced and seem to have been brainwashed into the Virgin mentality.

I know they don't think into the PR aspect of the job these days but if I had a choice between a pretty young 'Train Manager' who ticks all Virgin's 'young and lovely' boxes and a slovenly, probably slightly ignorant at times, 30 years on the job BR 'guard' then I think I know which I'd prefer to have should things go up the spout and the carriage I'm in end up on it's roof.

I suppose the point in question is are revenue guards that desirable and should you mix customer service and safety critical roles on board trains. I know it's a cheap way of doing things and works very well and branch lines and the like, but I'm not convinced it's possibly to be warm and fuzzy trotting out the company line and also excellent in an emergency situation in one go.

If your emotions get in the way of doing the job however, and I suspect this is the critical part, you should consider whether you should be doing the job at all - even with the current marginalisation of train guards in favour of handing responsibilities to the driver.

BUT I do not believe that that is anything at all to do with revenue protection, so the bloke who mentioned it in line with 'safety critical people shouldn't let emotion get in the way of their work' is talking irrelevent jibber in this case, because get this, revenue protection is not safety critical

 

[Beaker]

I'm glad that you admit he was wasting police time, although you appear not to realise that wasting police time is an offence and he could have been charged for it.

You don't know what the good Samaritan was doing on the train ? He may have committed an offence on the train.

You should look at the situation from both points of view not just from a moral high point.

 

[me123]

I'm glad that you admit he was wasting police time, although you appear not to realise that wasting police time is an offence and he could have been charged for it.

Not an offence, really, if you believe that there is actually a crime on progress, which seems to be true. If he'd called the BTP for no reason whatsoever, that would definately be wasting police time, but to do so in the belief that there may be a crime, whilst still "wasting police time", is done in the belief that law and order will be maintined by doing so.

 

[Pumbaa]

I think AlexS has a fair point actually. Virgin staff tend to be one of the two extremes. I've had a lot of very friendly people check my tickets who actually know nothing other than what's been drummed into them in training sessions.

I was bailed out last week actually, by a (senior??) TM who was shadowing what appeared to be a new TM called Iven (east European of origin). He questioned the validity of my pre-booked AP ticket (both parts). He wasn't rude - just very very wrong.

 

[voyagerdude220]

If i was the Train Manager on the said train, I would have definately given alot of leniency, if an elderly passenger had an invalid ticket.

I would be able to tell by how they reacted, if it was a genuine mistake, or if they were trying to fool me with "i'm an elderly passenger, so you can't charge me extra, as elderly people make mistake alot easily" (without trying to offend anyone)

If i did force them to buy a new ticket, I would have politely, and calmly explained why i was doing so, and why their ticket wasn't valid, despite it being a Manchester to London ticket.

If the passenger started to become very upset, and stated to me that the "platform staff at Manchester Piccadilly told me to board this 10:15 train, instead of the 10:45" It would have caused alarm bells to ring on my head, and I would have seen that it was definately a genuine mistake.

However, if they said this to me, and i still had an element of doubt, i would have contacted the train station, to get confirmation if this was indeed the case.

As for Virgin Trains' response... They clearly don't have the strength to admit they (or more precisely the TM) were wrong to do this..

If VT support the TM, who must have therefore been right to do this, if they have the TOC's support, why the heck have they given her a taxi, and upgraded her to First Class?!!

Does this mean that if i "accidently" boarded a different Pendolino, got excessed my FC AP single (correctly), but went to the Daily Mail about it, i'd get a taxi, and a free first class ticket from Virgin? I don't think so!

However, the only people who know what really did happen on the day, are the TM, and passengers onboard the Pendolino. OK, CCTV may have recorded the event, but it can't record every single word which everyone onboard said on the day.

 

[Metroland]

If i was the Train Manager on the said train, I would have definately given alot of leniency, if an elderly passenger had an invalid ticket.

As a train manager you may not be entitled to give a lot of leniency. I don't know what Virgin's policies are, but clearly the directives from above define what you are able to do.

If you bend the rules as a member of staff and something comes to a head, you must carry the can, which could include the loss of your job and livelihood. This is the number one reason staff can become militant and 'jobsworths', the fear of reprimand over using their own common sense. I personally believe it is the number one reason the railways seem to have industrial relations problems.

Very often, the blame culture looks for heads to roll, and can permeate down the backbone of an organisation, and this is why staff can appear to react in 'irrational' ways and do things 'by the book', which can have embarrassing consequences for an risk averse industry like rail.

 

[voyagerdude220]

That's a very good point Metroland...

I suppose that whenever the VT TMs have let me off with my FC AP singles, they've known me, and i've always gone to them to explain why i'm asking to use the train after, i've always asked at the ticket office, who usually validate them, or if not, the TM usually knows me anyway. (and therefore knows that i'm not going to run off & tell a more senior person!)

 

[yorkie]

I'm pretty sure Virgin staff are not put under pressure to charge people excessively, based on what a VT TM told me. And that seemed to me to be the case for Virgin when they ran CrossCountry too.

The fact that Simon threw a wobbler at the thought of this woman being bailed out by other passengers, demonstrates that he is a jobsworth, regardless of the rights or wrongs of charging her in the first place.