Virgin EC 1st Class - The Great Unanswered Questions

[Butts]

I have deliberately created a separate thread for this to try and get answers to various matters I have been attempting to clarify - in some cases for years on this Forum. A lot of it equally applies to VWC as well.

1. Complimentary Alcohol (particularly spirits)

How is this accounted for bearing in mind the consumption must be variable according to demand and the largesse of the Stewards. It must be borne in mind the same product is charged for in the Cafe Bar Are the staff given a limited amount to dish out hence their reticence on ocassions to part with any of it.

2. Virgin East Coast Lounges

Generally the offering in the above is inferior to that in their West Coast Cousins, I defy anyone to contradict this. Most VEC Lounges have "tea and biscuits" and that's your lot. Edinburgh is a notable exception and I suspect Kings Cross but I have not been in there. With all the hulaballo they have been making about how they have improved the Lounges this seems to only apply to the decor not the "goodies"

3. The Oliver Twist "breakfast" Scenario

If you were staying in a hotel or B&B and wanted to vary your order from the standard offering it does not seem to be problem in most establishments I have stayed in. If on VEC you said "can I have a couple of eggs, couple bacon, couple of black pudding a sausage and a mushroom I suspect you would be met with a "blank stare". Why can they not offer passengers more choice and flexibility. The catering is run more like Butlins from the sixties - take it or leave it. I don't believe it's a stock problem as I have noticed a lot of people don't have the "grill option". Has anyone ever asked for an extra egg ?

4. York 1st Class Lounge

Why on earth has this Station as one of the main interchanges in the UK not got this facility. This nonsense about not being able to identify a venue is absolute garbage as their are dozens of empty rooms within the complex. They are being given far to easy a ride on this one. It seems crazy to have a Lounge at Berwick and Darlington for example but not in York.


Virgin have made a big thing about improving the 1st Class Experience and to me it seems they are falling short in things that could be easily remedied. I'm not on twitter but if they were asked any of the above on a public forum would they shamed into giving an honest answer or would they just ignore it?

I'm not sure how it works

 

[godfreycomplex]

1 - I think the Crew Leader fills out a report if the stock is below the "forecast" (that doubtless some moron has drawn up somewhere). The alcohol does get disposed of at the end of the day though; be it to the depot's drainage system or to the more chatty passengers (after alighting from
2 - Kings Cross certainly is an exception. When I was young (well; younger ) and impetuous I looked upon East Coast first class lounge offerings with the same scorn as many others. Nowadays they are warm places to have a sit down. What VTEC lack in lounge goodies they make up for with on-train goodies
3 - I've got an extra bit of black pudding before now but to be honest I'm not usually up at that time in the morning if I can possibly help it. Luck of the crew I suspect.
4 - Dunno. Where; pray; are these dozens of empty rooms? There may be windows with not a lot going on in them; but there are not that many empty rooms. And isn't that what the York Tap is there for? It'd be nice to have but York station is set out like a rabbit warren and to put a lounge in you'd probably have to put it upstairs which means a lift would probably have to be fitted inside which is; quite frankly; nigh on impossible.
Reading is a considerably bigger interchange station and doesn't have a 1st class lounge; nor; frankly; does it really need one. Much like York; most people are on their way reasonably quickly.
It's hardly something to "shame" them for; whilst it would be nice if they had a bit more (and the onion bhaji sandwiches need to return); there are other problems in the world that need solving. Children dying in Africa and all that.

 

[BestWestern]

Are you absolutely sure the exact same products are both offered as complimentaries and sold in the buffet? That is very poor stock control.

Often what happens is the same brand might be available as both, but in a differing size/quantity etc. For example, a GWR First Class passenger gets a can of Coke for nowt from the trolley, while a punter at the bar would pay for a bottle of it. The can aren't available for resale, although of course they still have to be accounted for and ordered accordingly.

 

[Butts]

Are you absolutely sure the exact same products are both offered as complimentaries and sold in the buffet? That is very poor stock control.

Often what happens is the same brand might be available as both, but in a differing size/quantity etc. For example, a GWR First Class passenger gets a can of Coke for nowt from the trolley, while a punter at the bar would pay for a bottle of it. The can aren't available for resale, although of course they still have to be accounted for and ordered accordingly.

Well I'm pretty sure the spirits are the same brand of the 5cl Size (double measure)

 

[ainsworth74]

With regards to point 3 that is something that exists on the other two TOCs that offer complimentary breakfasts (EMT and Virgin West Coast). I would also mention that stock on a train is rather more limited than it is in a hotel or a BnB where they can happily stockpile vast amounts of breakfast items in their fridges. So to ensure that all passengers can be offered the breakfast it does make sense that they don't allow for a 'free for all'.

 

[Starmill]

I can tell you for a fact that you would not get a straight answer to your questions on Twitter. I don't agree with all of your reasons but I do think they fail dramatically to live up to their fancy marketing. They do an OK job. Premier Inn are more professional, consistent, flexible to customer needs and live up to the claims they make and that was just a random firm I picked in seconds that do a better job that East Coast First Class.

 

[Butts]

With regards to point 3 that is something that exists on the other two TOCs that offer complimentary breakfasts (EMT and Virgin West Coast). I would also mention that stock on a train is rather more limited than it is in a hotel or a BnB where they can happily stockpile vast amounts of breakfast items in their fridges. So to ensure that all passengers can be offered the breakfast it does make sense that they don't allow for a 'free for all'.

I'm not suggesting a "free for all" just a little more flexibility. With regard to storage and actual "grill uptake" I don't believe this should present an unrealistic proposition.

If you have a service that has very few stops ie Edinburgh to London via Newcastle in the Morning it should be simple to organise.

A lot of Breakfast Services I travel on are so lightly loaded there is no excuse really.

Why are people so supine with regard to this. A lot of people (not me) have paid a lot of money for their ticket and should be offered better options.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can tell you for a fact that you would not get a straight answer to your questions on Twitter. I don't agree with all of your reasons but I do think they fail dramatically to live up to their fancy marketing. They do an OK job. Premier Inn are more professional, consistent, flexible to customer needs and live up to the claims they make and that was just a random firm I picked in seconds that do a better job that East Coast First Class.

Right it's a simple question...

Why are Virgin East Coast Lounges less well provisioned than Virgin West Coast Lounges ?

What would the response be?

 

[IanXC]

The one that gets me is the seeming impossibility of obtaining a breakfast without mushrooms...

 

[Butts]

The one that gets me is the seeming impossibility of obtaining a breakfast without mushrooms...

I had a whacking great one on the way to York on Thursday

Perhaps you would be kind enough to address some of the issues raised as this has been "parked" in the Trip Planning Thread.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you have a service that has very few stops ie Edinburgh to London via Newcastle in the Morning it should be simple to organise.

You of course lose consistency then. I get on one train at Darlington and I can have a flexible breakfast I get on the one half an hour later and I can't (usually one VTEC to London stops only at York after Darlington and then the next will call at three of four stations to London)?

A lot of Breakfast Services I travel on are so lightly loaded there is no excuse really.

At your end maybe but down here there are a number of very busy southbound services.

Why are people so supine with regard to this. A lot of people (not me) have paid a lot of money for their ticket and should be offered better options.

Taking your points in order:

1. I'm not trying to get drunk so I don't want or need to have lots to drink. If I get offered two or three ciders in a two hour journey I'm happy enough.

2. I'm not after 'freebies' from the lounges. I want somewhere warm, quiet and comfy to wait for my train and that's exactly what the VTEC lounges provide. I much prefer the lounge at Kings Cross to the one at Euston despite the lack of 'freebies' at Kings Cross. It would be nice to have but I don't desire it strongly enough to complain.

3. I'm quite happy with the portion size of the current breakfast. Given the choice I might opt for a bit more (extra sausage would be nice) but I have no issue with the breakfast portion and certainly not enough to complain about.

4. Now here I do agree with you as it seems a very odd omission particularly considering the number of first class passengers from the station. However as I do not regularly use York with first class tickets its again not something I feel strongly enough to want to complain about.

More generally I also agree with you point about price. If I was travelling on a 1st Anytime or Off-Peak Return from Darlington to London (£440 and £347 respectively) I might feel differently compared to travelling on a £40-50 Advance Purchase ticket. But even then I would gamble a lot of people who are travelling on such tickets are doing so on expenses or are only paying the difference between a walk-up standard class ticket and the relevant first class ticket (i.e. because the company will pay for standard class travel only).

 

[Chrism20]

1. Haven't a clue how it's accounted for.

2. Coffee and a biscuit I think more than suffices for the time I spend in them. Euston lounge is like a zoo at times and is unbearable tbh. Everytime I've been in a WC lounge there has been the "Bagfiller" brigade in. Sure we have all nabbed a pack of biscuits at some points or another, however I've seen people pack half a dozen packs of crisps, juice and biscuits in equal quantities and then walk straight out.

3. I'm with the others on this sorry. Whilst the trains aren't seriously heavily loaded from up where we are this would cause problems further down the line. There is however no excuse for not being able to remove something though, that's just laziness. I use the 0710 Leeds to Aberdeen fairly regularly (boarding at Newcastle) and some mornings it's a roll of the dice if you get the grill or not. There are a good few times I've managed to order it and the passenger behind me has been told "All gone" and vice versa. They could get more stock on at NCL but by the time they have checked it, trayed it and cooked it we would be between Berwick and Dunbar probably and that's when they start the cleardown.

4. York is the ECMLs Preston when it comes to a first class lounge (The lounge is where any similarities end) - lack of space probably. Several different TOCs operating out of there so several crew facilities etc mean it's just not possible to have a lounge.

Berwick from what I understand has a good number of first class passengers boarding and alighting.

 

[Butts]

1. Haven't a clue how it's accounted for.

2. Coffee and a biscuit I think more than suffices for the time I spend in them. Euston lounge is like a zoo at times and is unbearable tbh. Everytime I've been in a WC lounge there has been the "Bagfiller" brigade in. Sure we have all nabbed a pack of biscuits at some points or another, however I've seen people pack half a dozen packs of crisps, juice and biscuits in equal quantities and then walk straight out.

3. I'm with the others on this sorry. Whilst the trains aren't seriously heavily loaded from up where we are this would cause problems further down the line. There is however no excuse for not being able to remove something though, that's just laziness. I use the 0710 Leeds to Aberdeen fairly regularly (boarding at Newcastle) and some mornings it's a roll of the dice if you get the grill or not. There are a good few times I've managed to order it and the passenger behind me has been told "All gone" and vice versa. They could get more stock on at NCL but by the time they have checked it, trayed it and cooked it we would be between Berwick and Dunbar probably and that's when they start the cleardown.

4. York is the ECMLs Preston when it comes to a first class lounge (The lounge is where any similarities end) - lack of space probably. Several different TOCs operating out of there so several crew facilities etc mean it's just not possible to have a lounge.

Berwick from what I understand has a good number of first class passengers boarding and alighting.

When did you see me in there ?

Seriously perhaps if the Lounges were manned this would not be a problem. Did you read my post a while back about my conversation with the Train Despatcher at Waverley who was grumbling because they "may have done up the lounge but have removed the staff"

I think you are a bit weak on number four - several TOC's operate out of a lot of Lounge Locations.

On number three that is a pitiful excuse they can radio ahead to obtain further supplies. They should know how many advances have been sold and add a bit on for walk ons.

Why is everyone avoiding number 1 , have we not got anyone on here who works in Catering on VWC/VEC who can answer ?

 

[godfreycomplex]

There's grumbling and there's legitimate concerns that the best service isn't being provided, which puts passengers in a bad mood which makes everyone's job more onerous
We're not avoiding the question, it's probably a very complex process of orders and re-orders, with charts and matrices and so on. Virgin staff are probably forbidden from publicly divulging this information because you could work out the formulae used to calculate the charts and matrices, which has all sorts of commercial consequences.
Just sit back and relax, you'll get what you get (I had four double gins between Edinburgh and Dundee once, equally one small bottle of cider between Oxenholme and Euston)
As for "less well provisioned", that's very subjective. If you go mental for peace, quiet and the best hot chocolate, it's Wakefield Westgste that's the best, if you go for easy platform access and good snacks it's Lime Street and so on. I would argue there is no meaningful and objective standard for a "good" lounge

 

[Chrism20]

The bagfillers I refer to are in staffed lounges. New Street being the worst of the lot imo.

Try getting one of those TOCs to move out of a room/office to somewhere less convenient in the station and I can imagine the response. IMO any lounge at York needs to be on or within stepping distance of the main London bound platform, anything over the bridge is pointless as the majority of high yielding first class passengers are probably heading south.

You may think number three is pitiful but they have no control over the numbers boarding without advances which means they are literally playing a guessing game. The stock needs to be managed and its perishable so it needs to be controlled.

If Edinburgh crews phone Newcastle for more bacon, sausage and eggs on say the first four services of the morning and Newcastle provide it will they have enough for the Newcastle originators the following morning? The result then is the Newcastle originators end up with bacon rolls the following morning because 150 greedy guts from Edinburgh have had a ten item breakfast the morning before.

That then results in Newcastle upping their order for the following week but Edinburghs greedy guts aren't as peckish this week and don't need anything so it ends up going out of date.

Logistically it's a nightmare which is why the menu is set.

Avoiding number one as I've never worked on a train. Worked in stations but not on board.

 

[Butts]

There's grumbling and there's legitimate concerns that the best service isn't being provided, which puts passengers in a bad mood which makes everyone's job more onerous
We're not avoiding the question, it's probably a very complex process of orders and re-orders, with charts and matrices and so on. Virgin staff are probably forbidden from publicly divulging this information because you could work out the formulae used to calculate the charts and matrices, which has all sorts of commercial consequences.
Just sit back and relax, you'll get what you get (I had four double gins between Edinburgh and Dundee once, equally one small bottle of cider between Oxenholme and Euston)
As for "less well provisioned", that's very subjective. If you go mental for peace, quiet and the best hot chocolate, it's Wakefield Westgste that's the best, if you go for easy platform access and good snacks it's Lime Street and so on. I would argue there is no meaningful and objective standard for a "good" lounge

I think you are making the Catering sound like some sort of mystical process rather than probably about 50 or 60 covers. With modern communications the process must be a lot simpler than it was. They have been doing it for years so the system should be quite well developed.Whats all this nonsense about commercial consequences - who's going to copy it Northern ?

"You'll get what you get" not a very positive endorsement of expectation.

"Less well provisioned" refers to the "fayre" on offer not the ambiance so is purely objective and EC generally fall short compared to WC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The bagfillers I refer to are in staffed lounges. New Street being the worst of the lot imo.

Try getting one of those TOCs to move out of a room/office to somewhere less convenient in the station and I can imagine the response. IMO any lounge at York needs to be on or within stepping distance of the main London bound platform, anything over the bridge is pointless as the majority of high yielding first class passengers are probably heading south.

You may think number three is pitiful but they have no control over the numbers boarding without advances which means they are literally playing a guessing game. The stock needs to be managed and its perishable so it needs to be controlled.

If Edinburgh crews phone Newcastle for more bacon, sausage and eggs on say the first four services of the morning and Newcastle provide it will they have enough for the Newcastle originators the following morning? The result then is the Newcastle originators end up with bacon rolls the following morning because 150 greedy guts from Edinburgh have had a ten item breakfast the morning before.

That then results in Newcastle upping their order for the following week but Edinburghs greedy guts aren't as peckish this week and don't need anything so it ends up going out of date.

Logistically it's a nightmare which is why the menu is set.

Avoiding number one as I've never worked on a train. Worked in stations but not on board.

Well if the Lounges are staffed they should stop people "taking the ****". Last time I was in the New Street Lounge there were two staff in there most of the time.

I don't agree with you about the Lounge at York - I am not privy to what all the empty spaces are used for but I'm sure a suitable one could be found. Virgin manage the Station do they not ?

The extra items are "marginal cost" with breakfasts. That's why so many hotels have a buffet style operation as labour is far more expensive than the food. I think you are making excuses as to why they are unable to provide a better service.

 

[Chrism20]

I'm not making excuses, I'm just not providing you with the answers you want to hear unfortunately.

I cut my catering teeth with SSP who are absolute masters when it comes to margins and cost control, that was followed up by four years as a cluster manager for Whitbread and I can promise you now food costs are anything but marginal in a catering business, after wages they are the biggest cost to the operation. And if it's so marginal how come during my time at Whitbread we were only allowed to do buffet when we were over 80% occupancy? If it was less than that it was table service.

When it comes to the EC FC service falling over and not delivering I am one of their biggest critics but I think at times it needs to be remembered the environment they are working in. The prep and cooking space is limited which means there is limited space for storage so they can only take so much fresh food on and need to plan accordingly, if they take too much and it isn't stored properly and the health inspector boards the train the company and the staff responsible are in hot water. Yes they can get more from the next station but the stock may not be available or there may not be anyone available to bring it to the train. These things unfortunately happen.

The quality of the food being served is good, it's not cheap crap. That breakfast plus the tea, coffee, toast, muffins etc is probably running at a cost price of £3.50 per head excl staffing and it's not just the staff you see serving it that needs to be costed, it has to get from the stores to the train so you are probably looking at £6 a head for breakfast easily if you add in the costs.

Could the service be better? Definitely but it is just not logistically possible for up to 150 people to be sitting placing up to 150 different bespoke orders and to achieve it in the environment they work in. You have said yourself in posts in the other thread that sometimes breakfast isn't being served until just before Alnmouth on a southbound service. If it were to go to bespoke ordering they would still be serving Edinburghs breakfasts when they were rolling into Newcastle where there is usually a decent number boarding and alighting so the process starts all over again.

I don't know what's in all the rooms/offices in York either but I would be surprised if it were to be just empty space. In the time I worked for SSP I worked in Waverley, both Glasgow stations, Preston, Fenchurch Street, Euston and Waterloo, there were lots of places that looked like they weren't used but they were for various reasons such as retail storage, staff rooms, control offices etc etc. Yes those could be moved elsewhere to accommodate a first class lounge but is there anywhere else in the station suitable to move them to? If not is it practical and viable to build something new so that you can then open a first class lounge which doesn't make any money so it then won't contribute anything to cover the costs of building something.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one butts.

 

[Starmill]

I think if Butts feels as strongly about these so as to ask us all why we are avoiding his questions, he needs to write all of this down comprehensively and eloquently, and go and quiz the managers about it, the next event is this Wednesday in Newcastle. It's clear he will not be satisfied with anything less than this. I'm sure there are answers to these questions if he is prepared to put some effort into getting them.

 

[Butts]

I think if Butts feels as strongly about these so as to ask us all why we are avoiding his questions, he needs to write all of this down comprehensively and eloquently, and go and quiz the managers about it, the next event is this Wednesday in Newcastle. It's clear he will not be satisfied with anything less than this. I'm sure there are answers to these questions if he is prepared to put some effort into getting them.

Unfortunately the Edinburgh one (closest to me) is not until February

I have officially asked via another medium about the Lounge Situation - I mistakenly sent it to Virgin West Coast who must have taken delight when passing it over to Virgin East Coast (who have not yet replied )

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Unfortunately the Edinburgh one (closest to me) is not until February

I have officially asked via another medium about the Lounge Situation - I mistakenly sent it to Virgin West Coast who must have taken delight when passing it over to Virgin East Coast (who have not yet replied )

I asked VTEC about the no FC lounge at York and they are going to pass it up to their bosses who will write to me about it. If there was anywhere to put it, I would suggest in the upper area above the platform used for the Leeds train

 

[Butts]

I'm not making excuses, I'm just not providing you with the answers you want to hear unfortunately.

I cut my catering teeth with SSP who are absolute masters when it comes to margins and cost control, that was followed up by four years as a cluster manager for Whitbread and I can promise you now food costs are anything but marginal in a catering business, after wages they are the biggest cost to the operation. And if it's so marginal how come during my time at Whitbread we were only allowed to do buffet when we were over 80% occupancy? If it was less than that it was table service.

Well Virgin East Coast is not a Catering Business so presumably they buy in from Gate Gourmet or whoever at a price that includes delivery. Most of it probably originates from Brake Brothers or 3663 I suspect , that's who we used when I worked for Rank/Gala.

When it comes to the EC FC service falling over and not delivering I am one of their biggest critics but I think at times it needs to be remembered the environment they are working in. The prep and cooking space is limited which means there is limited space for storage so they can only take so much fresh food on and need to plan accordingly, if they take too much and it isn't stored properly and the health inspector boards the train the company and the staff responsible are in hot water. Yes they can get more from the next station but the stock may not be available or there may not be anyone available to bring it to the train. These things unfortunately happen.

From what I've seen on West Coast Specials they seem to be able to turn out a lot more in the same limited space.

The quality of the food being served is good, it's not cheap crap. That breakfast plus the tea, coffee, toast, muffins etc is probably running at a cost price of £3.50 per head excl staffing and it's not just the staff you see serving it that needs to be costed, it has to get from the stores to the train so you are probably looking at £6 a head for breakfast easily if you add in the costs.

£3.50 - I doubt if it's more than £2 the cost will be for a delivered product.

Could the service be better? Definitely but it is just not logistically possible for up to 150 people to be sitting placing up to 150 different bespoke orders and to achieve it in the environment they work in. You have said yourself in posts in the other thread that sometimes breakfast isn't being served until just before Alnmouth on a southbound service. If it were to go to bespoke ordering they would still be serving Edinburghs breakfasts when they were rolling into Newcastle where there is usually a decent number boarding and alighting so the process starts all over again.

I think you overestimate the number of people who have the grill. 150 from Edinburgh at Breakfast never in a month of Sundays - knock 100 off that at least.

I don't know what's in all the rooms/offices in York either but I would be surprised if it were to be just empty space. In the time I worked for SSP I worked in Waverley, both Glasgow stations, Preston, Fenchurch Street, Euston and Waterloo, there were lots of places that looked like they weren't used but they were for various reasons such as retail storage, staff rooms, control offices etc etc. Yes those could be moved elsewhere to accommodate a first class lounge but is there anywhere else in the station suitable to move them to? If not is it practical and viable to build something new so that you can then open a first class lounge which doesn't make any money so it then won't contribute anything to cover the costs of building something.

Poppycock - they managed it at Glasgow Central

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one butts.

Over a good single malt - not the blended Virgin Crap
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I asked VTEC about the no FC lounge at York and they are going to pass it up to their bosses who will write to me about it. If there was anywhere to put it, I would suggest in the upper area above the platform used for the Leeds train

Hope it's not a case of "Don't ring us we'll ring you"

I was in York last week and the whole place is plastered with banners proclaiming how great they are and all the wonderful 1st Class improvements they have made

 

[All Line Rover]

The one that gets me is the seeming impossibility of obtaining a breakfast without mushrooms...

Whereas on VTWC the problem is getting a breakfast with mushrooms...

How is complimentary alcohol (particularly spirits) accounted for bearing in mind the consumption must be variable according to demand... Are the staff given a limited amount to dish out hence their reticence on occasions to part with any of it.

I would hope that three alcoholic drinks is enough for any passenger on a single journey (possibly four or five if travelling the entire distance from London to Scotland). You won't have any trouble getting three alcoholic drinks on VTWC providing you ask as the trolley goes by.

If you were staying in a hotel or B&B and wanted to vary your order from the standard offering it does not seem to be problem... If on VTEC you said "can I have a couple of eggs, couple bacon, couple of black pudding a sausage and a mushroom I suspect you would be met with a "blank stare". Why can they not offer passengers more choice and flexibility.

VTWC's stock control isn't great. When the eggs Benedict was first introduced they only had two or three per train! This has improved, but more recently they have only had a handful of each evening meal option and been running out of most (or all) of the three options on Pendolinos with no more than twenty-odd passengers on board.

There is a certain minimum quantity of stock that you would expect any TOC to have available and VTWC therefore falls short in this regard from time to time, but I would also like to have the option of ordering breakfast or dinner using the VTWC (or VTEC) app before boarding (with a cut-off time of two hours before departure, say). This would also allow VTWC and VTEC to offer custom breakfasts. Not all of us want black pudding. Not all of us want bacon. Some of us would prefer two eggs and two sausages instead.

Every time I've been in a WC lounge there has been the "Bagfiller" brigade in. Sure we have all nabbed a pack of biscuits at some points or another, however I've seen people pack half a dozen packs of crisps, juice and biscuits in equal quantities and then walk straight out... New Street being the worst of the lot...

I use VTWC lounges very regularly and I've never seen people hoarding the quantities you describe. In fact I don't see people hoarding at all. And regardless, at Birmingham New Street there isn't anything of substance to hoard!

 

[Butts]

Whereas on VTWC the problem is getting a breakfast with mushrooms...

But you do get a Hash Brown which is missing on VEC

I would hope that three alcoholic drinks is enough for any passenger on a single journey (possibly four or five if travelling the entire distance from London to Scotland). You won't have any trouble getting three alcoholic drinks on VTWC providing you ask as the trolley goes by.

This can sometimes depend on the crew - the ones that operate an "in and out" policy are the best

VTWC's stock control isn't great. When the eggs Benedict was first introduced they only had two or three per train! This has improved, but more recently they have only had a handful of each evening meal option and been running out of most (or all) of the three options on Pendolinos with no more than twenty-odd passengers on board.

Twenty odd passengers is the most significant figure in that paragraph

There is a certain minimum quantity of stock that you would expect any TOC to have available and VTWC therefore falls short in this regard from time to time, but I would also like to have the option of ordering breakfast or dinner using the VTWC (or VTEC) app before boarding (with a cut-off time of two hours before departure, say). This would also allow VTWC and VTEC to offer custom breakfasts. Not all of us want black pudding. Not all of us want bacon. Some of us would prefer two eggs and two sausages instead.

This I suspect would fall into the realms of science fiction with either operator

I use VTWC lounges very regularly and I've never seen people hoarding the quantities you describe. In fact I don't see people hoarding at all. And regardless, at Birmingham New Street there isn't anything of substance to hoard!

Oh I don't know the packs of shortbread in the fancy packaging and the sweets are tempting. If you were talking VEC then agreed.

 

[Chrism20]

As Starmill said I think you are going to have to ask VTEC directly as it's clear that you aren't going to accept any version on here other than the one you want to hear.

Yes the stock probably comes from Brakes/3663 but them and Gate Gourmet will be the logistical partner in the operation. VTEC will prepare all forecasts, prepare all the orders and bear the cost of any wastage unless it has been wasted on the fault of 3663/Gate Gourmet. That is how logistical operations work.

This is also how it works with Rank Group - I know this for an absolute fact - rank negotiate with the supplier, order it, buy it and it then goes through the logistical operation who deliver it to their bingo and casino operations.

The VWC breakfast is grill/roll/salmon/florentine or benedict/fruit/porridge
The VEC breakfast is grill/roll/rarebit/fruit/porridge

The only difference is there is no benedict or florentine whilst the salmon is replaced with the rarebit on the other coast. Not that much of a difference really is it other than there are several types of egg being served.

If you think that ECs breakfasts are being knocked out for a cost price of £2 for the delivered product you are well off the mark. The tea, toast, jam, butter and a banana muffin that you get served before the grill won't be far off a pound alone.

Maybe I have over-estimated the numbers for Edinburgh but going back to what I said - it's taking them to Alnmouth to serve the existing breakfast to the existing numbers as it is. Even the fifty orders that you are suggesting would take them to Newcastle to deal with - and that's assuming they get them right, and the train wouldn't be ready for the next wave of orders.

Glasgow Central? Ah yes that partitioned off dozen seats with a coffee machine and a fridge stuck on the end of the ticket office, is this the standard you now wish to set in order to get a first class lounge? Or is it the standard you wish to set in order to get a freebee? If space is available at York yes VTEC probably should be looking at putting a lounge in there, however both GNER in the early days and EC were imo far more customer orientated/focussed than the current Virgin operation are and neither of them put a lounge into York which they both ran so there must be some reason behind it.

 

[philjo]

I have deliberately created a separate thread for this to try and get answers to various matters I have been attempting to clarify - in some cases for years on this Forum. A lot of it equally applies to VWC as well.


2. Virgin East Coast Lounges

Generally the offering in the above is inferior to that in their West Coast Cousins, I defy anyone to contradict this. Most VEC Lounges have "tea and biscuits" and that's your lot. Edinburgh is a notable exception and I suspect Kings Cross but I have not been in there. With all the hulaballo they have been making about how they have improved the Lounges this seems to only apply to the decor not the "goodies"

I used the VTEC lounge at Leeds on Friday - mainly to sit down for 25 mins out of the pre-rush hour crowds. though had to queue to get in as people were queuing to buy tickets from the window you have to show your ticket to enter the lounge.
The hot drinks were limited as the water boiler was out of action. (so hot water from the thermos jug was available) so only other drink on offer were bottles of water from the fridge.
- VTWC lounges usually have orange juice as well.

no biscuits available (though I had some in my bag I had bought in Bettys in York so ate those)

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is this accounted for bearing in mind the consumption must be variable according to demand and the largesse of the Stewards. It must be borne in mind the same product is charged for in the Cafe Bar Are the staff given a limited amount to dish out hence their reticence on ocassions to part with any of it.

I've found WC to be less generous with it than EC. On one EC journey the steward seemed to be trying to get me drunk, even when I said no he asked if I was sure.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would hope that things like booz if undrunk arnt waisted but instead left on the train or in the fridge at the depot.

I have always regarded first as a treat and although suckered in by the marketing etc in 2011 found it lacking and so unless its acceptionally good value its standard for me.

Im far more likely to go first on WC where the customer seams to matter a great deal more than on the ECML.
If im honest this philosafy applies to standard these days too, I just dont feel the EC franchise is as nice to travel with and often is more expensive!

 

[Butts]

I used the VTEC lounge at Leeds on Friday - mainly to sit down for 25 mins out of the pre-rush hour crowds. though had to queue to get in as people were queuing to buy tickets from the window you have to show your ticket to enter the lounge.
The hot drinks were limited as the water boiler was out of action. (so hot water from the thermos jug was available) so only other drink on offer were bottles of water from the fridge.
- VTWC lounges usually have orange juice as well.

no biscuits available (though I had some in my bag I had bought in Bettys in York so ate those)

That sounds like a rather chaotic entry method !!!

No biscuits, dear me. VTWC at that time would probably have cans of pop, sweets,fruit, crisps as well as what you mentioned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've found WC to be less generous with it than EC. On one EC journey the steward seemed to be trying to get me drunk, even when I said no he asked if I was sure.

However if you are in a Voyager on VWC with a steward virtually at your beck and call the reverse can be true as he only has one carriage to negotiate. As we've said before it's all down to the staff sometimes. Strategic positioning can play a part if "in and out" is operating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would hope that things like booz if undrunk arnt waisted but instead left on the train or in the fridge at the depot.

I have always regarded first as a treat and although suckered in by the marketing etc in 2011 found it lacking and so unless its acceptionally good value its standard for me.

Im far more likely to go first on WC where the customer seams to matter a great deal more than on the ECML.
If im honest this philosafy applies to standard these days too, I just dont feel the EC franchise is as nice to travel with and often is more expensive!

BT - you shouldn't give up the ghost . I have had 10 or 11 journeys in 1st over the last few weeks on EC (and a few on WC). Generally the offering has exceeded expectations. But then I only travel at sale prices during quiet times.

£12 each way 1st Class from Falkirk to Newcastle you can't go wrong - but if I was paying in the hundreds I may be a little more critical

 

[Techniquest]

BT did the wise thing and avoids VTEC. I can understand why, it's a boring route that never seems to end for a start. Service levels are awful regardless of class, the MK4s are uncomfortable and it is simply too expensive for the miserable journey you get.

VTWC on the other hand are the best at customer service, whether in Standard or First Class. Yes they make a mess of it occasionally, but at least the wires don't come down so friggin' often! I always find myself wondering "Will the ECML behave itself today?" when I'm over that side of things! I would rather the smoother journey on a 390 than being shaken (not stirred) on VTEC and those awful MK4s!

As for the hoarders in lounges, I was a little guilty of this when I used the GWR lounge recently. The sandwiches looked utterly rancid and the coffee was horrid instant stuff out of packets. The lavatory stunk, and the cake didn't look like it was going to materialise, if it was the staff were too busy faffing around in the back room to actually serve or help anyone. So I ended up taking 4 packets, one of each, of the snacks and a can of Coke with me. The ambience just wasn't there, I preferred the old one, and I just couldn't bear being in this one hence taking the snacks I would have consumed in the lounge with me.

I have yet to try the new one at The Bat Cave but I wasn't a fan of the Euston one at the time, which I think was 2008. The best lounge in my eyes will always be the one at Cardiff Central on platforms 1 and 2. I don't know if it's still there or if it's been refurbished, at least the staff were always helpful and friendly, and it actually felt First Class too. I need to revisit it actually...

So I don't see the point in putting one in York, is there actually a demand for it from the masses?