Virgin East Coast Twitter

[MG11]

Why? It is abundantly clear. Upgrades are available on Bank Holidays and it was a Bank Holiday in the country where the train was.

And what would happen when the train crossed the border? It is a very grey area, for sure.

 

[MG11]

I have just asked Virgin East Coast on Twitter.

Hi, would a weekend upgrade be available if a bank holiday in Scotland but not England from Edinburgh-London please?

 

[ainsworth74]

Assuming they answer saying no perhaps you can follow up by asking them if they could clarify this on their website?

 

[Darandio]

I have just asked Virgin East Coast on Twitter.

Here's hoping they don't reply with "Yes, pet".

 

[MG11]

It's been confirmed that the upgrade is available and I asked for a full journey to London.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Virgin_TrainsEC/status/949334167988441088

Hi Cindy, yes this will be available on a Bank Holiday. ^JC

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh, even better!

 

[lejog]

My understanding is that it wasn't advertised in any evidencial documents, such as posters, just word of mouth from a colleague, which, once on board, there was no way of proving. This is the issue with un-written permission.

Apart from the fact that this information appears on the Virgin website, there is absolutely no need whatsoever for the offer to be written, a verbal offer is equally as binding as a written offer. The Consumer Rights Act 2015, which applies to the railways, makes this clear.

Information about the trader or service to be binding

(1)Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including as a term of the contract anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service, if—

(a)it is taken into account by the consumer when deciding to enter into the contract, or

(b)it is taken into account by the consumer when making any decision about the service after entering into the contract.

If there is an "issue" with un-written authorisation, it is 100% the railway's problem, the onus is on the railway to prove that authorisation was not given, they can't go round assuming passengers are guilty.

 

[yorkie]

The train was headed for England though and run by York-based Virgin.....

So?

If you are suggesting the Guard acted appropriately, then quite frankly I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms (to put it politely!)

It was a Bank Holiday and the customers were advised the upgrade was available, so if you are attempting to make excuses, it just undermines your credibility.

 

[MG11]

So?

If you are suggesting the Guard acted appropriately, then quite frankly I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms (to put it politely!)

It was a Bank Holiday and the customers were advised the upgrade was available, so if you are attempting to make excuses, it just undermines your credibility.

The Twitter team have just confirmed that upgrades are available in these circumstances, so we now know the guard was incorrect.

 

[sefton]

The Twitter team have just confirmed that upgrades are available in these circumstances, so we now know the guard was incorrect.

So if you could get confirmation that quickly, why couldn't the guard?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

He's got 10% and his name on the gaff.

and his brand of course

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Nothing I would imagine as he ain't running it and you know it.

ooh how very Richard Branson... stamp your feet, throw your toys out the pram and bray a bit more for the perfect impersonation though.

 

[yorkie]

So if you could get confirmation that quickly, why couldn't the guard?

Some Guards (not many, but their impact is very big so they are noticeable) just decide they won't accept a ticket and will refuse to budge. Or they will pick their preferred source (e.g. a memo) and ignore any other source (e.g. the IKB).

That said, if the Twitter team say something is valid, that's arguably binding on the company, but if they say something isn't valid, I wouldn't trust them to be right. They are very misinformed about certain things e.g. combining fares for one journey.

 

[lejog]

Also for those earlier in the thread who wished to draw conclusions from a Twitter post, the lady concerned has written this:

Let’s get one thing out of the way to begin with. The manager was Scottish, as am I, and I understand the difference between “honey” as a friendly term of endearment and a word used to put women in their place. The other passengers on board who heard were also clear about that – and I certainly would never have tweeted about it had I doubted my own feelings on this. There’s nothing wrong with honey/sweetie/pet as a general rule, but when they’re used in such a demeaning manner it’s not OK. It’s intimidating and misogynistic.

And apparently she's a law graduate, so quite likely rather better acquainted with her legal rights if she had been told she could buy an upgrade on board, since it seems that the rail industry has chosen to ignore the fact that Consumer Rights legislation applies to them too now.

 

[yorkie]

... the rail industry has chosen to ignore the fact that Consumer Rights legislation applies to them too now.

The rail industry is slowly waking up to this fact, but there are a minority of Guards who are of the view 'this is my train, my rules apply' or who are very selective in terms of which rules they think should be applied in a given scenario and certainly wouldn't be aware of the concept of consumer law or contract law applying.

At least one on the East Coast is of the view 'I've been doing this job for 13 years, so I am right'. (or words to that effect; about half a dozen forum members witnessed that). Same one who claimed a via Peterborough fare wasn't valid via Peterborough. You couldn't make it up, honestly. It's bizarre and infuriating.

 

[lejog]

You're preaching to the converted here, as I've posted before, I've reached an agreed out of court settlement with Northern after an encounter with a guard who thought he could make up the law (as well as break of journey restrictions) on "his" train.

 

[attics26]

just to add a slightly different potential problem, I started work on the 2nd Jan knowing the Festive First had ended on the 1st, mid morning control sent out a message that Festive 1st was available today and I definitely told atleast one lady that yes she could upgrade for £25, an hour or so later control sent out a message that Festive 1st was available today for journeys starting in Scotia, since I work in England any guard knowing that Festive 1st wasn't available would not have believed her story.

 

[MG11]

just to add a slightly different potential problem, I started work on the 2nd Jan knowing the Festive First had ended on the 1st, mid morning control sent out a message that Festive 1st was available today and I definitely told atleast one lady that yes she could upgrade for £25, an hour or so later control sent out a message that Festive 1st was available today for journeys starting in Scotia, since I work in England any guard knowing that Festive 1st wasn't available would not have believed her story.

Do you ever get asked for written assurance? No offense but I would need something written before I entered FC.

 

[attics26]

sometimes but I would rather approach the guard and explain why I think any passenger should gain what might be refused, unless I had checked to see it was a certain guard when I would explain to passenger that even with a valid ticket I would not join his train, most on here know said guard.

 

[yorkie]

... unless I had checked to see it was a certain guard when I would explain to passenger that even with a valid ticket I would not join his train, most on here know said guard.

If not based in Scotland, Yorkshire or London, then I think so, yes!

Back on topic https://twitter.com/cameronuk2001/status/926140857572560897

plus he was rude when I asked him why the cost was different. Not good customer service

Did they apologise for rudeness? Did they consider the possibility the Guard may have been wrong (as some of them can be)?

No! They defiantly said:

Hi Cameron, the Train Manager will have charged you the correct fare. Did you have a more expensive ticket last week? ^MS

It is dubious to say the train manager "will have" charged the correct fare. Probably? sure. But I wouldn't count on it without checking the facts. And staff should still be polite! If you are paid to communicate with customers, you shouldn't be rude, and that goes for everyone who is customer-facing.

They fail on so many levels. The company doesn't care. It's the Virgin Trains way!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It's been confirmed that the upgrade is available and I asked for a full journey to London.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Virgin_TrainsEC/status/949334167988441088

Hi Cindy, yes this will be available on a Bank Holiday. ^JC

Errr... that answer doesn't actually show if they have understood that the question was being asked about a Scotland only bank holiday does it?

 

[MG11]

Errr... that answer doesn't actually show if they have understood that the question was being asked about a Scotland only bank holiday does it?

@Virgin_TrainsEC Hi, would a weekend upgrade be available if a bank holiday in Scotland but not England from Edinburgh-London please?

I said bank holiday in Scotland but NOT England.

 

[attics26]

if the train started in Scotland the bank holiday rule was in force for those passengers joining in Scotland, doesn't matter where they were travelling to.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I said bank holiday in Scotland but NOT England.

Just because you said it does not mean that they read it and understood it does it?

 

[Starmill]

My understanding is that it wasn't advertised in any evidencial documents, such as posters, just word of mouth from a colleague, which, once on board, there was no way of proving. This is the issue with un-written permission.

Permission to travel is permission to travel, written down or otherwise, and relates to a lot of things - first class upgrades are just one of them. I don't see the problem with it being given verbally by the guard.

 

[MG11]

Permission to travel is permission to travel, written down or otherwise, and relates to a lot of things - first class upgrades are just one of them. I don't see the problem with it being given verbally by the guard.

Because it is difficult to back up, and in this case, the permission was given by platform staff, who would be hard to track down as the train is speeding away from the station.

 

[Qwerty133]

Some Guards (not many, but their impact is very big so they are noticeable) just decide they won't accept a ticket and will refuse to budge. Or they will pick their preferred source (e.g. a memo) and ignore any other source (e.g. the IKB).

I'm not exactly sure why you seem to repetitively insist that the correct source is always going to be the most beneficial one for the customer?
While anything publicly available should be accepted I see no reason why an internal memo should be ignored in favour of an internal website (that you and a handful of other non rail staff seemingly have access to) just because the website contains the understanding that you want to exploit.

 

[roversfan2001]

I'm not exactly sure why you seem to repetitively insist that the correct source is always going to be the most beneficial one for the customer?
While anything publicly available should be accepted I see no reason why an internal memo should be ignored in favour of an internal website (that you and a handful of other non rail staff seemingly have access to) just because the website contains the understanding that you want to exploit.

Is it acceptable for guards to abuse their position of authority to deny a customer something they have been told (whether that be from another rail employee, a TOC website/Twitter account etc.) they are eligible for?

 

[AlterEgo]

The Twitter team have just confirmed that upgrades are available in these circumstances, so we now know the guard was incorrect.

You’ve got a lot of faith in their Twitter team.

 

[AlterEgo]

if the train started in Scotland the bank holiday rule was in force for those passengers joining in Scotland, doesn't matter where they were travelling to.

Virgin EC offer their full First Class service on 2nd January. That’s why they don’t sell the Upgrade. This has been the case at both Virgin TOCs since time immemorial.

The situation is that the Weekend/BH Upgrade is NOT available, that the guard was correct, and simply that VTEC did not clarify the offer on their website. Thus, the customer, when push comes to shove, if given a UFN for the full upgrade, would find it easily challengeable.

A frustrating sideline to the matter is the suggestion by some posters that the onboard staff do not have the right to ask for the customer’s name and address. I’ll remind those posters again that what they essentially suggest is that a person who is in First Class with a Standard Class ticket, and who refuses to pay the Upgrade, on the basis of an uncorroborated story that someone in a booking office said it would be less than what was demanded, is entirely free of any process to resolve the matter. Pointing to websites and so on is neither here nor there. All the guard has to do is have reasonable suspicion, which I have outlined earlier in the thread is a very low threshold. All the guard is doing is asking for the customer’s name and address so it can be resolved later. It’s frustrating to hear of the confusion between the issues. It defies common sense that the guard cannot ask for a name and address, and that the options open to him when dealing with a customer refusing to pay the Upgrade because of an uncorroborated story about someone else saying it’s cheaper, is limited to doing nothing when the customer refuses to pay.