Vintage London area buses and Trollybuses

[STEVIEBOY1]

I went to the Hampton Middlesex Transport Gala yesterday and went on a couple of the free vintage bus journeys they were recreating in part.

One was the 725 Greenline service, which yesterday went from Hampton Stn via Hampton Court to Kingston & Return, the other was trying to recreate part of one of the Trolley Bus services in that area. Yesterday it ran as 667, from Hampton Stn to Twickenham, either direct via Fullwell or some via Hampton Ct, Kingston, Hampton again then to Twickenham.

I was wondering/pondering a few points;

I do recall years ago seeing the above mentioned 725 Greenline in Kingston & Staines, am I correct in thinking that it went from Windsor to Dartford & Gravesend? does any part of that route still exist now. I Think Green Line used to have a very large network around out London and into the country?

Also what LT Bus route would now follow the old trolleybus route from Raynes park & Kingston towards Hampton Wick, Teddington & Twickenham. My mother often mentioned about travelling on the Trolleybus from Teddington to Kingston & Back and also when visiting my father who lived in Raynes Park.

One thing she said often happened on the way home from Kingston, just after it went over the bridge to turn right towards Hampton Wick, it was and still is a tight curve, sometimes the poles would come off the overhead wires and the driver and conductor would have to take very long wooden poles from under the trolley bus to hook them back up again. I see on modern trolleybuses abroad, the poles are held by ropes, so making the reconnections a bit easier.

One final thing. I enjoyed travelling on the old buses yesterday, is there a website that mentions when similar travel events are on when vintage bus journeys such as yesterday, are possible. (I know that the number 15 in London is partly operated by RMs)

Tks.

 

[CatfordCat]

I went to the Hampton Middlesex Transport Gala yesterday and went on a couple of the free vintage bus journeys they were recreating in part.

<snip>

In answer to various bits -

Yes, the 725 as introduced c. 1950 did originally run Gravesend - Dartford - Bexleyheath - Bromley - Croydon - Kingston - Windsor. Original allocation was to Northfleet and Staines garages. Windsor and Dartford got involved later, and the 726 variant went to / via Heathrow Airport.

the 725 has withered a lot, partly due to increasing traffic congestion making it hard to run such a long service reliably, and also the complications caused by running partly outside Greater London.

All that's left is the X 26, Croydon - Heathrow, which is run as part of the TfL network - currently by Epsom Buses 'Quality Line'

The Green Line network was part of London Transport's country bus department, and later London Country. Most routes crossed central London, e.g. 701 was Gravesend - central London - Ascot, 704 was Tunbridge Wells - central London - Windsor (The 725 was at one time unique in not serving central London.) Some routes only ran as far as central London (particularly the Essex routes which mostly terminated at Aldgate.)

At that time, the cross London return journey was manageable as a day's work - a running time of about 3 1/2 hours in each direction made a day's work, with a meal break at the remote end of the route. Again, increasing traffic made this impossible.

http://www.ampyx.org.uk/lcountry/grnline/grnline.html has more on all things Green Line.

Bus routes 281 and 285 - although they have changed over the years - are still recognisable as the bus routes that replaced some of the Kingston area trolleybus routes in 1962. The 281 still runs from the former trolleybus depot at Fulwell.

http://www.londonbuses.co.uk/ (an enthusiast not official site) may be a good point to trace route histories of London's buses.

as regards coming events, http://www.lots.org.uk/ tends to be good for London area, http://www.classicbuses.co.uk/events.html is national.

 

[Busaholic]

Just adding a little to Catford Cat's very full answer, the trolleybus routes from Raynes Park Station (north side) were the 604 Wimbledon Broadway to Hampton Court and 605 Wimbledon to Teddington Station. They were amongst the last London trolleybus routes on withdrawal in 1962, being replaced by bus routes 131 and 285 respectively, although extended at the western ends. So the modern 131 Tooting Broadway to Kingston still follows that Raynes Park routeing.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Thank you Catford Cat for this very useful reply. I will keep an eye on the website link for classic buses etc. The Trolley Bus museum near Doncaster looks interesting too, certainly worth a visit.

I will have a go on the 281 and 285s.

Yes Busaholic, I recall my mother and aunt mentioning the 604 & 605 routes too.

My mother could remember when the old Double Deck Trolley Buses used to run from Fulwell, she preferred them to the diesel/petrol buses. Before the Trolley Buses, Fulwell was a tram depot too.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

A long shot, but would there be any hope of bringing back heritage trolleybuses back to London? (Would add another tourist attraction and perhaps contribute to the economy!) Either in a museum setting (easier) or on streets (harder)? And there are some London trolleybusees at the East Anglia Transport Museum.

 

[Mojo]

Sorry to drag this slightly off topic. The sign on Ashley Road said that the Supercar was parked on Wensleydale Road however I went down there and it was nowhere to be seen (this was approx 3.30p.m.) Was it actually there?

 

[CatfordCat]

Just adding a little to Catford Cat's very full answer, the trolleybus routes from Raynes Park Station (north side) were the 604 Wimbledon Broadway to Hampton Court and 605 Wimbledon to Teddington Station. They were amongst the last London trolleybus routes on withdrawal in 1962, being replaced by bus routes 131 and 285 respectively, although extended at the western ends. So the modern 131 Tooting Broadway to Kingston still follows that Raynes Park routeing.

http://www.trolleybus.net/ has a lot more London trolleybus related stuff.

The 131 (mentioned above) has - like most London bus routes - changed over time, and is now also in part the successor of the Wimbledon - Tooting bit of the 155 bus route, which was direct replacement for tram routes 2 / 4 Wimbledon - Embankment. The 155 was (from memory) the second last tram replacement route to use the loop via Victoria Embankment (alternate buses running via Westminster / Blackfriars Bridges) - the 109 from the Croydon direction was the last.

As regards trolleybuses returning to London - with land prices as they are in London, I can't really see any heritage transport site that's big enough to have a worthwhile wiring circuit would be impossibly expensive and I can't see them being anything like enough of a tourist attraction to be anywhere near self funding.

On-street operation of heritage vehicles would in theory be possible, but I can't help thinking it would be very complicated to do - I expect that whatever laws allowed trolleybuses to be run on the highway have lapsed.

There is - or was a few years back - a steam powered bus on the road in (I think) Cumbria, and this required a bit of law to be passed, as there was no law currently standing that enabled steam powered public service vehicles.

Having said that, I think my first driving licence included provisional entitlement for trolley vehicles - and that was a decade or more after the UK's last trolleybuses ran. I expect this got tidied away when the photocard licences and change of categories happened in the 1990s.

 

[MotCO]

There are a number of 'running days' around London, recreating old routes operated mostly by London Country using RFs, GS, RTs and Routemasters, with occasionally more modern vehicles. They are often centred on East Grinstead, Sevenoaks and Hertford. No fares are charged, but it would be good if you bought a programme.

Further details and upcoming events can be found on http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.smith/buses/CBR/CBR01.htm

 

[Busaholic]

http://www.trolleybus.net/ has a lot more London trolleybus related stuff.

The 131 (mentioned above) has - like most London bus routes - changed over time, and is now also in part the successor of the Wimbledon - Tooting bit of the 155 bus route, which was direct replacement for tram routes 2 / 4 Wimbledon - Embankment. The 155 was (from memory) the second last tram replacement route to use the loop via Victoria Embankment (alternate buses running via Westminster / Blackfriars Bridges) - the 109 from the Croydon direction was the last.

As regards trolleybuses returning to London - with land prices as they are in London, I can't really see any heritage transport site that's big enough to have a worthwhile wiring circuit would be impossibly expensive and I can't see them being anything like enough of a tourist attraction to be anywhere near self funding.

On-street operation of heritage vehicles would in theory be possible, but I can't help thinking it would be very complicated to do - I expect that whatever laws allowed trolleybuses to be run on the highway have lapsed.

There is - or was a few years back - a steam powered bus on the road in (I think) Cumbria, and this required a bit of law to be passed, as there was no law currently standing that enabled steam powered public service vehicles.

Having said that, I think my first driving licence included provisional entitlement for trolley vehicles - and that was a decade or more after the UK's last trolleybuses ran. I expect this got tidied away when the photocard licences and change of categories happened in the 1990s.

Adding to your notes, the 131's original extension from Wimbledon occurred on Sundays only to Tooting and on to Clapham Common, Old Town, covering the 155 over that section on that day, which in turn made the 155 a weekdays-only route. This arrangement pertained for quite a few years.

Hope you don't mind me correcting you on the last tram route along the Victoria Embankment via both Blackfriars and Westminster Bridges. This was the route to Abbey Wood via Greenwich and lasted til the day of the last London trams on 5th July 1952, becoming the 177 bus route the following day.
Living in Eltham then and although pretty young I can just remember those last trams and travelling on one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, I;ve just re-read your piece and you were talking about the last bus route, so mea culpa, although coming to mention it did the 177 not retain a couple of early morning runs along the Embankment after the route had been cut back to Elephant, or is this a figment of my imagination?

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I wonder if it would be feasible to wire a circuit of streets in central London (enough to give a decent length ride) so that heritage trolleybuses can be run, particularly near the central London tourist hotspots - that could then attract tourists by its very existance (families might go for a quick ride on the trolleybus 'while they are at it') and feed off the London tourism. After all, at Brikenhead, there is a heritage tramway running along real streets as opposed to in a museum setting like all the other heritage tram/trolleybus museums.

 

[Busaholic]

I wonder if it would be feasible to wire a circuit of streets in central London (enough to give a decent length ride) so that heritage trolleybuses can be run, particularly near the central London tourist hotspots - that could then attract tourists by its very existance (families might go for a quick ride on the trolleybus 'while they are at it') and feed off the London tourism. After all, at Brikenhead, there is a heritage tramway running along real streets as opposed to in a museum setting like all the other heritage tram/trolleybus museums.

I can't see it happening unless wires were going up for a 21st century version of the trolleybus, as should be happening in Leeds. IMO the East London routes EL1 and EL2 would have been an ideal testbed for a modern version of the trolleybus: after all, they were originally earmarked for tram operation, and trolleybus would be both cheaper and more flexible in a developing area. There would also have been the opportunity to ride on a trolleybus between Ilford and Barking for the first time in fifty years. The only other place I could suggest would be North Greenwich which might get a few more paying customers using the skilift, and might get sponsored by the same crowd.

 

[CatfordCat]

Sorry, I;ve just re-read your piece and you were talking about the last bus route, so mea culpa, although coming to mention it did the 177 not retain a couple of early morning runs along the Embankment after the route had been cut back to Elephant, or is this a figment of my imagination?

Yes - the 177 certainly retained some late / early journeys along the Embankment after the daytime service was cut back.

Although in 1978, someone finally realised that the south london (tram replacement) night buses didn't really need to follow the tram tracks any more, and it got diverted along Fleet Street. The rest of the S London night network stayed on Embankment until 1984.

The 177 was odd in that there were late / early journeys on the week, but a single night duty on Saturday nights (most night buses didn't run on Saturday nights until the mid 80s - the network was primarily there for print workers) which remained crew operated after the rest of the 177 was 'OMO' converted (to use 1970s terminology)

 

[Busaholic]

Yes - the 177 certainly retained some late / early journeys along the Embankment after the daytime service was cut back.

Although in 1978, someone finally realised that the south london (tram replacement) night buses didn't really need to follow the tram tracks any more, and it got diverted along Fleet Street. The rest of the S London night network stayed on Embankment until 1984.

The 177 was odd in that there were late / early journeys on the week, but a single night duty on Saturday nights (most night buses didn't run on Saturday nights until the mid 80s - the network was primarily there for print workers) which remained crew operated after the rest of the 177 was 'OMO' converted (to use 1970s terminology)

Thanks for confirming my memory- when you get to my age you do sometimes wonder if you imagined it. Now I think I'm right when I say that Saturday night crew working on the 177 was as a result of the N82 also having a Saturday night working by an RML and the two were combined into a single duty at New Cross (the N82 remained crew operated all week). RMLs were a rare species at NX and confined to their workings on the 37 by day, so the night workings brought RMLs to places that had never seen them before, and never would again, like Eltham.

 

[wimbledonpete]

The 131 (my local route) has always kept its central core between Wimbledon and Kingston but its outer ends have changed a bit over the years - from (briefly and only on early Sunday mornings) the Embankment at one end to Weybridge at the other. Sadly you've never been able to get it all that way on one bus!

 

[Busaholic]

The 131 (my local route) has always kept its central core between Wimbledon and Kingston but its outer ends have changed a bit over the years - from (briefly and only on early Sunday mornings) the Embankment at one end to Weybridge at the other. Sadly you've never been able to get it all that way on one bus!

Originally, the 131 ran between Walton-on-Thames and Kingston and was a fairly infrequent service. It got extended as the replacement for trolleybus route 604 in 1962, before which time it overlapped only between Hampton Court and Kingston. In the early '70s the Walton to West Molesey stretch was withdrawn and transferred to new route 211, so the modern 131 has nothing in common with the original route, unless there's any overlap in Kingston itself.

 

[Mike99]

Wrong thread, apologies

 

[CatfordCat]

Now I think I'm right when I say that Saturday night crew working on the 177 was as a result of the N82 also having a Saturday night working by an RML and the two were combined into a single duty at New Cross (the N82 remained crew operated all week). RMLs were a rare species at NX and confined to their workings on the 37 by day, so the night workings brought RMLs to places that had never seen them before, and never would again, like Eltham.

I'm almost certain that was not the case (I've not got a 1970s timetable to hand) but am fairly sure that both required a bus. It's possible that they might have inter-worked (as in crew A did the first half of their duty on the N 82 and the second half on the 177 and vice versa) though.

This sort of thing didn't happen often on LT buses (although the tram and trolleybus department had managed it happily) - the N88 and night 168 (later N 68) at Wandsworth did in the 60s / 70s.

The N82 was an oddity - it was a night bus on (tram replacement) route 182, and the one bus night service outlived the day service by many years.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm almost certain that was not the case (I've not got a 1970s timetable to hand) but am fairly sure that both required a bus. It's possible that they might have inter-worked (as in crew A did the first half of their duty on the N 82 and the second half on the 177 and vice versa) though.

This sort of thing didn't happen often on LT buses (although the tram and trolleybus department had managed it happily) - the N88 and night 168 (later N 68) at Wandsworth did in the 60s / 70s.

The N82 was an oddity - it was a night bus on (tram replacement) route 182, and the one bus night service outlived the day service by many years.

On reflection, I think you're right about each route requiring its own bus and you could well be right about the crews swapping routes halfway through their shifts, although if they were straight shifts this less likely. Like you, I don't have a 1970 timetable to hand.

Glad to be kept on my toes!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Originally, the 131 ran between Walton-on-Thames and Kingston and was a fairly infrequent service. It got extended as the replacement for trolleybus route 604 in 1962, before which time it overlapped only between Hampton Court and Kingston. In the early '70s the Walton to West Molesey stretch was withdrawn and transferred to new route 211, so the modern 131 has nothing in common with the original route, unless there's any overlap in Kingston itself.

I do remember the 131 at Walton On Thames.

Now my memory may be playing tricks on me, but I think I remember taking a bus with my father when I was very young from the Wimbledon/Raynes Park area through to Addlestone. I know it was a Green Double decker and terminated at Addlestone Bus garage, the 131 came into it some where, it may have been a through service, or we may have changed from the 131 onto the Addlestone Green double decker bus somewhere en route. This would have been in the mid to late 1960s or very early 1970s.

(I think it may have been meant to go a bit further, but terminated earlier because someone was unwell on it.) (We called in to the model shop in Addlestone that day too)

 

[Mike99]

Hi,
Maybe onto the 716/A somewhere around Hampton Court !!!

Regards

Mike

 

[Busaholic]

Hi,
Maybe onto the 716/A somewhere around Hampton Court !!!

Regards

Mike

My suggestion too - the 716A terminated at Addlestone Garage.

 

[wimbledonpete]

Originally, the 131 ran between Walton-on-Thames and Kingston and was a fairly infrequent service. It got extended as the replacement for trolleybus route 604 in 1962, before which time it overlapped only between Hampton Court and Kingston. In the early '70s the Walton to West Molesey stretch was withdrawn and transferred to new route 211, so the modern 131 has nothing in common with the original route, unless there's any overlap in Kingston itself.

Yes, that shows how self-involved I am - as I was born in 1962 the 131 has always been a Wimbledon-Kingston route for me! I did know about the earlier incarnation, honest!

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, that shows how self-involved I am - as I was born in 1962 the 131 has always been a Wimbledon-Kingston route for me! I did know about the earlier incarnation, honest!

Sorry, us old gits forget about you young whippersnappers! It is, though, an interesting example of how a bus route can change over the years without ever being withdrawn and end up with almost no connection with its original area. Bit like the proverbial hammer...

 

[wimbledonpete]

Sorry, us old gits forget about you young whippersnappers! It is, though, an interesting example of how a bus route can change over the years without ever being withdrawn and end up with almost no connection with its original area. Bit like the proverbial hammer...

Ha! I don't know what the original 131 did in Kingston but if started from the Bus Station it probably would have gone down Clarence Street, giving a very short bit of overlap with the current service, one way systems notwithstanding. But that's it!