Views on incident

[SamFrmLondon]

Hi all, I’ve joined to get your opinions on an incident that has occurred with a ticket inspector recently and would greatly appreciate it if you gave your thoughts.

A couple days ago, I topped up a family members student card myself which expires on the 14th, to help me get to the station so I could get to university myself. My student card is on the way and should be arriving the following week.

I of course tapped the card on the bus and had no intention of using it on the train as I always pay by contactless which I have the history of transactions as proof.

The ticket inspector scanned the card and the green arrow showed up. After as I was planning to put it away, he decided to ask to see the picture, which I showed him. He then tried to grab it out of my hand, which he couldn’t.

I explained the situation to him, the card is due to expire, that I paid the £17.30 and that my student card was on the way.

We got into a little argument, which of course in hindsight wasn’t a tactful move on my side which I do regret but I am balancing doing my masters and work which has me under a ton of stress.

I got off at my stop, before he could take my name and details down but know they’ll find me address through the card.

I also have no criminal history, not even a parking ticket to my name. I know they’ll probably prosecute to inflate their numbers but I wanted to know what you guys opinion was. Will they prosecute or send me a fine instead?

 

[Titfield]

Some observations:
1. Given your location is London I presume the bus operator was a TfL Contractor.
2.TfL's policy is to prosecute however we have seen some out of court settlements over the past few months.
3. Strictly speaking only a court can fine you.
4. On the basis of what you have said you were breaking the law by using another persons card which gives a discount on fares.
5. At this time you will have to wait to see whether TfL contact the card holder or you to take matters further.
6. You need to make sure that the card holder knows that a letter may be sent to them and if it does it is imperative that some action is taken. Ignoring it could result in matters escalating.
7. Once a letter has been received please post it on here with all personal details obscured (redacted). Further guidance can then be given specific to what tfL state.
8. TfL dont prosecute for prosecutions sake. Fare evasion is a major problem costing the tax payer millions a year. More and more operators are taking a very hard line on it. I note from your point of view you paid a fare and would be receiving a student card soon but TfL's do not see it that way. The use of someone elses discount card is not permitted.

 

[fandroid]

The downside of what you did bears no comparison with simply paying £1.75 using your contactless card. TfL's reactions to ticket infringements on buses can seem grossly out of proportion to the individual offences, but they are what they are, and some thought is always appropriate before "bending the rules"

 

[SamFrmLondon]

My argument was that the fare was not avoided as I already topped up the card personally but I doubt they’ll see it like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2023 ==

Some observations:
1. Given your location is London I presume the bus operator was a TfL Contractor.
2.TfL's policy is to prosecute however we have seen some out of court settlements over the past few months.
3. Strictly speaking only a court can fine you.
4. On the basis of what you have said you were breaking the law by using another persons card which gives a discount on fares.
5. At this time you will have to wait to see whether TfL contact the card holder or you to take matters further.
6. You need to make sure that the card holder knows that a letter may be sent to them and if it does it is imperative that some action is taken. Ignoring it could result in matters escalating.
7. Once a letter has been received please post it on here with all personal details obscured (redacted). Further guidance can then be given specific to what tfL state.
8. TfL dont prosecute for prosecutions sake. Fare evasion is a major problem costing the tax payer millions a year. More and more operators are taking a very hard line on it. I note from your point of view you paid a fare and would be receiving a student card soon but TfL's do not see it that way. The use of someone elses discount card is not permitted.

This was helpful. Another point I forgot to mention was that before the inspector could ask for my details or information I got off at my stop. How would they be able to find me as I still have the card?

 

[WesternLancer]

My argument was that the fare was not avoided as I already topped up the card personally but I doubt they’ll see it like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2023 ==

Indeed, I doubt they will - what you did was topped up someone else's card, which you were not entitled to use as I assume these cards are 'not transferable' - the pic of someone else on the card being the clue

Another point I forgot to mention was that before the inspector could ask for my details or information I got off at my stop. How would they be able to find me as I still have the card?

I guess they can find details of the card owner if they took those details off the card. So I would be letting that card owner know what has happened ASAP (I suspect they could withdraw or suspect that card but you say it expires/d soon.

I realise you had it full on with your MA studies etc - but was there a reason why you did not have your own card yet? eg if poor admin on their part you at least have an excuse, but if it is just that you had not got round to applying for it in time then I suspect that's on you sadly.

I suspect best thing to do is keep a careful eye on any post or communications (as should the person whose card it was) and head back here for more advice when or if you get anything about this. You may also be able to get advice from your university advice service (or Student Union advice service)

With luck you might never hear any more about this, but don't rely on that of course - I'm sure you are not or you would not have posted here.

Like I say, head back here for advice when you need it.

 

[dakta]

The experts will comment but I really don't see how topping up anyone elses card makes it valid for your use, I'm fairly certain the rules are to use the card you are issued and that only, and you use the service on the basis you abide by the rules.

So not so much did the company lose money, but rather you didn't do as agreed.

 

[dosxuk]

Presuming this is a 18+ Student Oyster card, then firstly, these cards are not transferrable and are only valid when used by the person pictured - you can not use them as a normal PAYG oyster. Secondly, they remain the property of TfL and can be withdrawn at any time - this includes by inspectors who detect misuse.

4.1 All photocards and Oyster photocards remain our property and must not be intentionally damaged, altered or tampered with in any way. If they are, we may withdraw or cancel your photocard or Oyster photocard at any time. You must not lend or transfer an Oyster photocard or Oyster card with a discount on it to anyone else. If you do, we may withdraw the Oyster photocard or Oyster card and you may forfeit the right to any refund on the unused value of your season ticket, pay as you go credit and/or any deposit (where paid). The person using your Oyster photocard or Oyster card may be liable to a penalty fare or prosecution.

 

[skyhigh]

How would they be able to find me as I still have the card?

They might not find out it was you, but they will have the card details and know who the registered owner is. It's possible the card could be cancelled remotely due to misuse though and TfL refuse to reissue one to the holder unless they tell them who was using the card.

 

[SamFrmLondon]

Indeed, I doubt they will - what you did was topped up someone else's card, which you were not entitled to use as I assume these cards are 'not transferable' - the pic of someone else on the card being the clue



I guess they can find details of the card owner if they took those details off the card. So I would be letting that card owner know what has happened ASAP (I suspect they could withdraw or suspect that card but you say it expires/d soon.

I realise you had it full on with your MA studies etc - but was there a reason why you did not have your own card yet? eg if poor admin on their part you at least have an excuse, but if it is just that you had not got round to applying for it in time then I suspect that's on you sadly.

I suspect best thing to do is keep a careful eye on any post or communications (as should the person whose card it was) and head back here for more advice when or if you get anything about this. You may also be able to get advice from your university advice service (or Student Union advice service)

With luck you might never hear any more about this, but don't rely on that of course - I'm sure you are not or you would not have posted here.

Like I say, head back here for advice when you need it.

Thanks for your input, it was very helpful.

 

[SamFrmLondon]

The experts will comment but I really don't see how topping up anyone elses card makes it valid for your use, I'm fairly certain the rules are to use the card you are issued and that only, and you use the service on the basis you abide by the rules.

So not so much did the company lose money, but rather you didn't do as agreed.

I understand your point but a criminal prosecution is harsh especially if you’ve spent your life meticulously staying away from criminal activities and you are studying but law is law. Too rigid imo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2023 ==

They might not find out it was you, but they will have the card details and know who the registered owner is. It's possible the card could be cancelled remotely due to misuse though and TfL refuse to reissue one to the holder unless they tell them who was using the card.

They can cancel the card as it expires very soon anyway but I’ve already notified the card holder.

 

[dakta]

I also understand your view, especially in some cases the outcome can appear disproportionate but realistically you haven't stayed away from wrongful/criminal activities which is why we're here. Taking someone elses card, topping it up etc is a concious act and I don't really know how anyone would not know it wasn't right.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to judge or berate so I hope it doesn't come across that way, but what needs to be understood is when you use the services you're agreeing to pay the fare due and abide by the rules so if you don't you put yourself in a situation where there could be totally valid but negative consequences. Though the forum will no doubt do it's best to help/advise so you can try and at least make the best of the situation.

 

[skyhigh]

I explained the situation to him, the card is due to expire, that I paid the £17.30 and that my student card was on the way.

I understand your point but a criminal prosecution is harsh especially if you’ve spent your life meticulously staying away from criminal activities and you are studying but law is law. Too rigid imo.

You bought a weekly bus and tram pass on a discounted Oyster that wasn't yours and used it in a way that wasn't permitted. That's asking for trouble. It's hardly rigid to ensure people pay their fares correctly.

 

[SamFrmLondon]

I also understand your view, especially in some cases the outcome can appear disproportionate but realistically you haven't stayed away from wrongful/criminal activities which is why we're here. Taking someone elses card, topping it up etc is a concious act and I don't really know how anyone would not know it wasn't right.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to judge or berate so I hope it doesn't come across that way, but what needs to be understood is when you use the services you're agreeing to pay the fare due and abide by the rules so if you don't you put yourself in a situation where there could be totally valid but negative consequences. Though the forum will no doubt do it's best to help/advise so you can try and at least make the best of the situation.

I understand. My only argument is that as a student waiting for his card, I used a student card which is on the verge of expiring and paid for the fare myself the difference only being £7 difference for a weekly pass for students and normal ones. In the grand scheme of things, if I get a criminal record because of £7 I’ll just have to laugh about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2023 ==

You bought a weekly bus and tram pass on a discounted Oyster that wasn't yours and used it in a way that wasn't permitted. That's asking for trouble. It's hardly rigid to ensure people pay their fares correctly.

If you had read what I said, you would have spotted that I pay for tram, tube and train via contactless and only paid for the weekly bus travel. I believe in situations like this with when dealing with citizens that have no committed major acts of grotesque criminal activity, the law should be lenient and not rigid, but that’s just my own viewpoint when it comes to states and judicial laws.

 

[WesternLancer]

I understand. My only argument is that as a student waiting for his card, I used a student card which is on the verge of expiring and paid for the fare myself the difference only being £7 difference for a weekly pass for students and normal ones. In the grand scheme of things, if I get a criminal record because of £7 I’ll just have to laugh about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2023 ==


If you had read what I said, you would have spotted that I pay for tram, tube and train via contactless and only paid for the weekly bus travel. I believe in situations like this with when dealing with citizens that have no committed major acts of grotesque criminal activity, the law should be lenient and not rigid, but that’s just my own viewpoint when it comes to states and judicial laws.

Yes, I can see where you are coming from.

But why did you not have your own card at the time as I asked above? Was it because they have delayed issuing it to you or because you did not apply for your in good time, or some other reason?

On your broader point, and this is getting into the realm of theory, that's a point you could make to the Magistrates if it came to a court. The problem is to try and speed up court processes I suspect these sorts of things come down to 'no discretion' cases - you did what you did, the law does not have any flexibility built in, the magistrate has little or no flexibility on the punishment levied etc.

But some would say the law does have leniency - I suppose it is all relative, but the punishments for this are relatively minor some might say (I agree probably not if you are on student income) - but you are not going to face a prison sentence say.

 

[SamFrmLondon]

Yes, I can see where you are coming from.

But why did you not have your own card at the time as I asked above? Was it because they have delayed issuing it to you or because you did not apply for your in good time, or some other reason?

On your broader point, and this is getting into the realm of theory, that's a point you could make to the Magistrates if it came to a court. The problem is to try and speed up court processes I suspect these sorts of things come down to 'no discretion' cases - you did what you did, the law does not have any flexibility built in, the magistrate has little or no flexibility on the punishment levied etc.

But some would say the law does have leniency - I suppose it is all relative, but the punishments for this are relatively minor some might say (I agree probably not if you are on student income) - but you are not going to face a prison sentence say.

I just hadn’t got around to ordering. Just to give some explanation to that, I study 4 days and work the other 3 so I have little to no time to get to things I need to get done in my personal life.

However I am realist and will say the fault, lies with me as I should have found 10-15 minutes.

I am studying Investment Banking and do think that a criminal record could affect my opportunities in the field. If I pay the fine off will the conviction be spent or will it still be on my record? Not sure if you would know the answer to that but I had to try lol.

 

[dakta]

if I get a criminal record because of £7 I’ll just have to laugh about it.

I don't want to detract from the core topic but it would, in my opinion, be dangerous ground to say because the loss is £7 (or something trivial) we should shrug these off, yes on the face of it having a criminal record for a few pounds might seem harsh, but if you didn't that was basically give the theft of any product or service of trivial value trivial meaning. And trivial abuse does cause, especially en masse, quite a lot of business harm. This isn't going to have a drastic impact on your life so I think the leniency as a previous poster has hinted is sort of built in.

 

[WesternLancer]

I just hadn’t got around to ordering. Just to give some explanation to that, I study 4 days and work the other 3 so I have little to no time to get to things I need to get done in my personal life.

However I am realist and will say the fault, lies with me as I should have found 10-15 minutes.

I am studying Investment Banking and do think that a criminal record could affect my opportunities in the field. If I pay the fine off will the conviction be spent or will it still be on my record? Not sure if you would know the answer to that but I had to try lol.

Thanks - understand your situation - no doubt we've all been there some time or another in terms of having a lot on ones plate and making an error of judgment! But yes, as you say, it's your fault sadly. I know you will be kicking yourself for the error of judgment.

Ref career option and impact - others often post good advice on that here so hopefully someone will advise. Obv that is an industry where financial probity is presumably an important consideration.

But like I say if they commence / threaten prosecution of you def come back here for advice - and if the consequences of this are career limiting it might be worth you thinking about legal help to minimise impact - your student union may be able to help access that for you (eg if it meant you would loose out on a job with a pay level that meant it was ultimately cheaper to pay a legal fee to try and minimise chances of conviction, then that may be a route you want to actively consider or at least weigh up).

But it may not come to that if they can't trace you. It maybe that the inspector even heard your point of view and opted to take it no further. Fingers crossed

 

[Titfield]

Part of the reason why the penalties are so harsh is to discourage people doing a form of risk:reward calculation that if they only get caught 1 in 20 times that the penalty is less than paying the fares overall.

 

[SamFrmLondon]

Thanks - understand your situation - no doubt we've all been there some time or another in terms of having a lot on ones plate and making an error of judgment! But yes, as you say, it's your fault sadly. I know you will be kicking yourself for the error of judgment.

Ref career option and impact - others often post good advice on that here so hopefully someone will advise. Obv that is an industry where financial probity is presumably an important consideration.

But like I say if they commence / threaten prosecution of you def come back here for advice - and if the consequences of this are career limiting it might be worth you thinking about legal help to minimise impact - your student union may be able to help access that for you (eg if it meant you would loose out on a job with a pay level that meant it was ultimately cheaper to pay a legal fee to try and minimise chances of conviction, then that may be a route you want to actively consider or at least weigh up).

But it may not come to that if they can't trace you. It maybe that the inspector even heard your point of view and opted to take it no further. Fingers crossed

Thanks for your help!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2023 ==

Part of the reason why the penalties are so harsh is to discourage people doing a form of risk:reward calculation that if they only get caught 1 in 20 times that the penalty is less than paying the fares overall.

Understand.

 

[Hadders]

Some good advice has been given in this thread but just to reiterate that TfL take misuse of these sort of cards very seriously. It's unlikely that any further action will be taken in this case (although not impossible) but do make sure you travel with the correct valid ticket or pass in the future.

If you search this section of the forum for TfL cases you'll see what I mean.

 

[SamFrmLondon]

Some good advice has been given in this thread but just to reiterate that TfL take misuse of these sort of cards very seriously. It's unlikely that any further action will be taken in this case (although not impossible) but do make sure you travel with the correct valid ticket or pass in the future.

If you search this section of the forum for TfL cases you'll see what I mean.

I appreciate the feedback.