Video: Stealing freedom

[Ferret]

I'm firmly of the belief that if staff employed by a property owner requests you leave, you do so. It is their property and they can at any time request people to leave it, it's a fundamental right regardless of whether anything is banned or not.

I don't want to get buried in the technicalities of this instance as there were wrongs on both sides. But strip it down and basically it is what I said above. An employee of the property owner (Network Rail) asked someone, for whatever reason, to leave their property. The reasonable response would to show a valid reason for your being there (a ticket) and to stop doing whatever made the property owner (if it was a specific action) ask you to leave.

It's pretty clear to me as well there were wrongs on both sides in this instance - I remember talking to Matt not long after this had happened and telling him he could've handled it better. Maybe he's learned from it - I don't know!

On the wider issue, to me, all the TOCs and NR (at senior management level) and BTP have agreed to the enthusiast guidelines. Those guidelines give enthusiasts express permission to photograph at stations providing simple rules are followed - like NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY(!!!) - and if those rules are followed then as far as I'm concerned station staff have no right to disregard the wishes of their superiors.

As for BTP - it's clear to me that as long as they do something - however pointless and futile it is (like these endless S44 stop and searches being carried out on rail enthusiasts) - then they are doing their bit for security. Until the penny drops that this action does more harm than good then we'll be stuck with it. It's complete madness, we all know it, but that's the crazy world we live in!

 

[theblackwatch]

and a lippy member of the public who challenges their authority.

And, of course, there's nobody on here who acts like that is there...

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I couldn't care less about the spotters/enthusiasts being there on my station, they are extra eyes at the end of the day. I personally would only kick off if you were getting in the way/got a tripod far too close to the platform edge, trespassing, or especially using a flash... that does my nut in and I wouldn't take a second thought about having a whine at someone for flash photography, if you don't know how to take a photo without using a flash then in my opinion you shouldn't be taking a photo at all... just my two cents

 

[Phoenix]

Then stop taking photographs! Photography may not be banned, but just stop if someone asks you to and wait for your train. It's not hard to say:

"OK, I will stop my photography but I'm waiting for a train to X".

If at this point they don't let you catch the train, then it's clear abuse of police powers. Telling them that photography isn't banned and getting into an argument isn't the best thing to do.

Yeah in the actual situation they guy was asked to leave the station and they turned to me and said "could you also leave" I just replied by saying "I have stopped taking photos as you have asked but I have tickets for the next train to Birmingham so I will wait in the concourse" they said "that's fine just stick to being a customer please".

 

[yorkie]

So you refused to leave and gave lip back, thus challenging their authority? You should have been given a full body search for such disgraceful terrorist behaviour!

 

[Coxster]

So you refused to leave and gave lip back, thus challenging their authority? You should have been given a full body search for such disgraceful terrorist behaviour!

Think that's bad? Try giving the forum moderators a bit of lip!

 

[Phoenix]

So you refused to leave and gave lip back, thus challenging their authority? You should have been given a full body search for such disgraceful terrorist behaviour!

No it's just being realistic to be honest I don't buy this terror BS for one minute when it concerns spotters with cameras so if I have a ticket for a train Ill damn well catch it or there will be hell to pay.

 

[Mintona]

Oh poor me123, I wish I had seen this thread earlier. I could have warned you it is bloody impossible to argue against yorkie because he is always right and there is no point having a different opinion because other opinions are worthless.

The problem with the guidelines is thus:
I have never been informed of them in my place of work, and I have been there almost a year now. However, I do know them because I am an enthusiast too.
Some of the other staff I work with don't know them, and one will make you write in advance to Customer Relations if you want to come and take photographs at the station, if you don't have this permission then they will kick you off. I have tried to tell them that is not right or acceptable, but that is what they have been told, from a company-perspctive in regards to commercial photographers, and we haven't been told it is different for enthusiasts.
I have asked people to sign in, as it is useful in case of fire, or other security issue. Just so we know if you are still on the station.

 

[yorkie]

Oh poor me123, I wish I had seen this thread earlier. I could have warned you it is bloody impossible to argue against yorkie because he is always right and there is no point having a different opinion because other opinions are worthless.

*Yawn* If you can't come up with any constructive argument/comment, then why post?

The problem with the guidelines is thus:
I have never been informed of them in my place of work, and I have been there almost a year now. However, I do know them because I am an enthusiast too.
Some of the other staff I work with don't know them, and one will make you write in advance to Customer Relations if you want to come and take photographs at the station, if you don't have this permission then they will kick you off. I have tried to tell them that is not right or acceptable, but that is what they have been told, from a company-perspctive in regards to commercial photographers, and we haven't been told it is different for enthusiasts.
I have asked people to sign in, as it is useful in case of fire, or other security issue. Just so we know if you are still on the station.

I think Northern need to be contacted then.

As for the fire issue, if it's regulations that anyone present has to be signed in, then why are passengers not asked to sign in?

And if a passenger takes photos while they are waiting for a train, are they asked to sign in?

 

[Mojo]

If the Police are so often right then why do we bother with courts, juries and judges?

 

[Mintona]

*Yawn* If you can't come up with any constructive argument/comment, then why post?

I did, the 2nd bit. Just made sure I got that bit in there too.

I think Northern need to be contacted then.

As for the fire issue, if it's regulations that anyone present has to be signed in, then why are passengers not asked to sign in?

And if a passenger takes photos while they are waiting for a train, are they asked to sign in?

Passengers aren't likely to stray down to the platform ends to take photos, and stay in areas where we can keep a better eye on them. I am not saying enthusiasts shouldn't be allowed to the end of the platforms, but it can be harder to see you down there. Our tannoy announcements don't cover the whole platforms, only the covered bits where the trains stop, so enthusiasts wouldn't necessarily hear it if we announced a fire evacuation. It is just an extra safety precaution.

 

[Phoenix]

Passengers aren't likely to stray down to the platform ends to take photos, and stay in areas where we can keep a better eye on them. I am not saying enthusiasts shouldn't be allowed to the end of the platforms, but it can be harder to see you down there. Our tannoy announcements don't cover the whole platforms, only the covered bits where the trains stop, so enthusiasts wouldn't necessarily hear it if we announced a fire evacuation. It is just an extra safety precaution.

But how can the enthusiast win because when were not platform ending were accused of disturbing the daily working of the railway by getting in the way of passengers.

No matter what the enthusiast does the staff will always have a reason for us to get lost and let's be honest here it's nothing to do with fire evacuations it's just because the industry don't want the added risk of "us lot standing at the end of the station".
BTW not having a pop at you Mintona.

 

[yorkie]

So an enthusiast who is a passenger and is taking photos between trains and isn't down a platform end won't be pestered to sign in, right?

 

[Phoenix]

So an enthusiast who is a passenger and is taking photos between trains and isn't down a platform end won't be pestered to sign in, right?

No they wont be asked to leave that's all.

 

[GB]

What's the point of having guidelines if staff disregard them?

Well there you have it, they are guidelines..not rules.

I was recently asked to stop taking photos at a station and the good old terrorism excuse was used. I could have stood their arguing or shouting or what ever or even played " but I'm rail staff" card, but they asked me to stop so I did...its not difficult.

 

[Mintona]

So an enthusiast who is a passenger and is taking photos between trains and isn't down a platform end won't be pestered to sign in, right?

The point is Yorkie, if there was a fire and you couldn't get out, it is useful for us and the fire brigade to know there are still people on the station. I am not saying it's a good idea, but it is something which might save your life.

 

[yorkie]

That's a politicians answer. Can you answer the question?

 

[Mintona]

Yes, I have been told I am like a politician before.

If I see someone taking photos, I will go and ask them how long they are planning on staying. If they are getting a train, or just waiting for a special train, I won't bother them again, just let them get on with it. If they are planning on spending hours there, I will politely ask them to sign in. I haven't had anyone refuse me that yet. It doesn't take long, we know you're there and it is useful to have the extra eyes on the platform.

For what it's worth, I don't like or agree with this whole signing in principle, but whilst it is there, I will abide by it.

 

[Ferret]

It wouldn't be necessary if the few railway staff that have a whole sack of spuds on their shoulder (rather than just a chip) would do what they're paid to do instead of harassing the neds. Aimed at those to whom I refer above, those guidelines give us permission to be on the station to photograph trains, end of story, now deal with it. I look forward to the day when one of these platform wallers who think they can behave as they do towards enthusiasts get a Form One for their trouble. I suspect that day may not be far off..............

 

[GB]

It wouldn't be necessary if the few railway staff that have a whole sack of spuds on their shoulder (rather than just a chip) would do what they're paid to do instead of harassing the neds. Aimed at those to whom I refer above, those guidelines give us permission to be on the station to photograph trains, end of story, now deal with it. I look forward to the day when one of these platform wallers who think they can behave as they do towards enthusiasts get a Form One for their trouble. I suspect that day may not be far off..............

Who are you to say what staff are paid to do!:roll:

...and those guidelines do not give you bl***y permission to be on the platform!!

 

[richa2002]

Lol, when did it become a sane thing to think that a trainspotter causes a threat? Laughable!

 

[Ferret]

GB, I could be forgiven for thinking you're one of those at whom my wrath is aimed!!! I'd sure be interested to hear your interpretation of those guidelines!

And as for who I am to talk about what rail staff are paid to do - umm, let's just say I'm in a position to be pretty sure it doesn't say 'needlessly harass neds going about their harmless hobby' in platform staff's job descriptions or employment contracts...........

 

[yorkie]

It may be that enthusiasts are harrassed less, as with the resession TOCs are getting rid of platform staff, yet the same number of trains are run. That means less time for the remaining staff to get bored and harass enthusiasts.

Hopefully they will be kept busy with the job and less likely to get bored

 

[Phoenix]

Who are you to say what staff are paid to do!:roll:

...and those guidelines do not give you bl***y permission to be on the platform!!

I don't want to cause an argument here so let's discuss what you just said there.
Yes nobody but the men upstairs can say what you guys are paid to do but we actually have a right to be on that platform because as if there is ticket barriers in place then we must be customers to get through them and if there isn't a barrier than it must be a public place.
Not being funny but to be fair you have also no right to tell us where to be as it is us who are paying your wages with our fares we wouldn't get this at a bus stop so why should we get it at a train station.

 

[90019]

But we actually have a right to be on that platform because as if there is ticket barriers in place then we must be customers to get through them and if there isn't a barrier than it must be a public place.

My friend's front garden doesn't have a gate, does that make it a public place then?

Not arguing with the being allowed on the platform part, just that bit of your argument is flawed.

 

[Phoenix]

My friend's front garden doesn't have a gate, does that make it a public place then?

Not arguing with the being allowed on the platform part, just that bit of your argument is flawed.

Your friends garden sadly is a garden and has never been a public place just a front garden.
What i meant though is that if they want us to become customers than by all means put more barriers up aqnd I will pay to get in but if they don't want to put barriers then really anyone should be allowed on the platforms because they managed to let us for over 100 years so what has changed?

 

[90019]

Your friends garden sadly is a garden and has never been a public place just a front garden.
What i meant though is that if they want us to become customers than by all means put more barriers up aqnd I will pay to get in but if they don't want to put barriers then really anyone should be allowed on the platforms because they managed to let us for over 100 years so what has changed?

Nothing, but it's still private land, same as the garden. They don't have to let you on the station if they don't want you there.

 

[Max]

If I see someone taking photos, I will go and ask them how long they are planning on staying. If they are getting a train, or just waiting for a special train, I won't bother them again, just let them get on with it. If they are planning on spending hours there, I will politely ask them to sign in. I haven't had anyone refuse me that yet. It doesn't take long, we know you're there and it is useful to have the extra eyes on the platform.

Does that mean that if I, as a general member of the public, decide to spend a certain, undefined length of time in the station, whatever the reason, I should sign in? For example, I could have allowed a couple of hours connection time to visit the cafe for lunch, with some additional slack in case of delays - does this mean I have to sign in? The term 'hours' needs to be defined.

Personally, I feel that the enthusiasts' guidelines are fatally flawed anyway - completely discriminatory. It's all very grey in my opinion.

 

[Phoenix]

Nothing, but it's still private land, same as the garden. They don't have to let you on the station if they don't want you there.

Yes indeed that's true but the fact is if I am on a station platform with a ticket as a customer are they not obliged to accommodate me within the station regardless as to whether I am at the start or end of a platform as long as it is within a safe legal area ?

If I am on a platform and haven't paid for a journey or to use the carpark etc then I will easily move on as I understand the majority of the reasons behind me needing to move but if I am a ticket holder and taking photos I expect to be allowed to about my business as I am a passenger and foremost a customer unless they wish to give me my money back.

BTW not having a pop at you just it's late and rant mode is on

 

[90019]

BTW not having a pop at you just it's late and rant mode is on

I know how you feel