Victoria - Victoria

[Egg Centric]

With the Ordsall chord it's reasonably easy, if somewhat silly, for a service to run from Manchester Victoria to London Victoria or vice versa. Has this ever happened on a charter?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

With the Ordsall chord it's reasonably easy,

Surely the addition of the Ordsall Chord doesn't change too much about theoretical special workings, since you could go via Denton.

for a service to run from Manchester Victoria to London Victoria or vice versa.

Or likewise Manchester Victoria to Southend Victoria, that would be reasonable too.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Surely the addition of the Ordsall Chord doesn't change too much about theoretical special workings, since you could go via Denton.

How would you get from Manchester Victoria to Denton without the Ordsall Chord and without reversing?

You could also (and perhaps more easily, and also without using the Ordsall Chord) access the WCML from Manchester Victoria via Earlestown.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How would you get from Manchester Victoria to Denton without the Ordsall Chord and without reversing?

Via Philips Park West Junction, Baguley Fold Junction, Ashton Moss North Junction and Denton Junction.

 

[ThePeakNed]

How would you get from Manchester Victoria to Denton without the Ordsall Chord and without reversing?

Quite easily, regular occurrence on ECS moves

 

[Topological]

In times past the train could have passed through Sheffield Victoria and Nottingham Victoria en route. Again I am not sure the Ordsall Chord would have been required.

If closed Victorias are considered then I suspect there are too many.

 

[Egg Centric]

I'll take you guys words for it for various routes, not being an expert on this sort of thing

Or likewise Manchester Victoria to Southend Victoria, that would be reasonable too.

Oooooh even better - a "Three Victorias" service. Or maybe there's even more?

Am interested in whether this has occurred (or is planned to) rather than theoretical possibilities mind.

 

[Magdalia]

Philips Park West Junction, Baguley Fold Junction, Ashton Moss North Junction and Denton Junction.

This was a regular route for passenger trains in the 1980s. I think it started when the Nottingham-Glasgow and return were diverted off the Settle and Carlisle to run via Manchester in 1982.

In times past the train could have passed through Sheffield Victoria and Nottingham Victoria en route.

Up to the closure of the Great Central London Extension trains between Sheffield Victoria and Nottingham Victoria were common. But Great Central trains running through to/from Manchester used London Road/Piccadilly and Central.

In the 1960s there was a summer Fridays 2310 Manchester Victoria-Yarmouth and summer Saturdays 1145 Yarmouth-Manchester Victoria. These are the only opportunities I can think of to travel between Manchester Victoria and Sheffield Victoria, but they did not go via Nottingham Victoria.

 

[Tester]

I'll take you guys words for it for various routes, not being an expert on this sort of thing




Oooooh even better - a "Three Victorias" service. Or maybe there's even more?

Am interested in whether this has occurred (or is planned to) rather than theoretical possibilities mind.

Of course to avoid reversing it would be London-Manchester-Southend or vv.

 

[jfollows]

This was a regular route for passenger trains in the 1980s. I think it started when the Nottingham-Glasgow and return were diverted off the Settle and Carlisle to run via Manchester in 1982.

These went Romiley-Guide Bridge or Reddish -Ashburys-Philips Park-Manchester Victoria. Until the Hazel Grove Chord opened in 1986 the only other route possible could have been Guide Bridge-Crowthorn Junction but this closed at some point which might have been before 1982 also. The working timetable doesn't show any intermediate times between Romiley and Ashburys which kind of implies that either route was OK.

EDIT #66 says

Crowthorn Junction to Guide Bridge (closed circa 1980s)

The absence of intermediate times in the WTT between Romiley and Ashburys means that the services were booked via Reddish, not via Guide Bridge.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How would you get from Manchester Victoria to Denton without the Ordsall Chord and without reversing?

Via Philips Park West Junction, Baguley Fold Junction, Ashton Moss North Junction and Denton Junction.

This was a regular route for passenger trains in the 1980s. I think it started when the Nottingham-Glasgow and return were diverted off the Settle and Carlisle to run via Manchester in 1982.

More recently, I travelled on the slightly unusual route via Denton, this on a diverted Manchester Victoria->Buxton working, on a Sunday afternoon sometime in the 2000s when most of the line between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport was closed for engineering work.

 

[jfollows]

More recently, I travelled on the slightly unusual route via Denton, this on a diverted Manchester Victoria->Buxton working, on a Sunday afternoon sometime in the 2000s when most of the line between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport was closed for engineering work.

Likewise, and not all that recently either, that was the last time I went over the line although I should be going Stockport-Stalybridge for the first time since then next Saturday on a Crewe-Edinburgh day out.
Northern no longer has the desire or ability to run these sort of services, which is a shame.

 

[Trainguy34]

Of course to avoid reversing it would be London-Manchester-Southend or vv.

I mean, they could head via Richmond and Barking using the District line through Victoria...

 

[Magdalia]

These went Romiley-Guide Bridge or Reddish -Ashburys-Philips Park-Manchester Victoria. Until the Hazel Grove Chord opened in 1986

Yes I think you are right here. I had forgotten that trains only went via Stockport after the Hazel Grove chord opened.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I mean, they could head via Richmond and Barking using the District line through Victoria...

But then they'd still have to reverse at Barking to get to Southend Victoria. Plus I don't believe there's any way to get from National Rail onto the District Line tracks at Richmond.

EDIT: I believe there is a solution: You could get on to the Victoria District Line tracks via the WCML then Kensington Olympia, then do a complete circle of the Circle line to get back to Earls Court and Kensington Olympia, then use the North London line to get to Stratford, then on to Southend Victoria (And do I really have nothing better to do on a Sunday morning than work that out...)

 

[Par]

This was a regular route for passenger trains in the 1980s. I think it started when the Nottingham-Glasgow and return were diverted off the Settle and Carlisle to run via Manchester in 1982.

I definitely remember taking this route from Manchester Victoria in the mid 1980’s as far as Nottingham. I think the destination was Harwich Parkeston Quay and it originated further north, quite possibly in Scotland. It was a named service, “North West Dane” or similar?

 

[greatkingrat]

But then they'd still have to reverse at Barking to get to Southend Victoria. Plus I don't believe there's any way to get from National Rail onto the District Line tracks at Richmond.

EDIT: I believe there is a solution: You could get on to the Victoria District Line tracks via the WCML then Kensington Olympia, then do a complete circle of the Circle line to get back to Earls Court and Kensington Olympia, then use the North London line to get to Stratford, then on to Southend Victoria (And do I really have nothing better to do on a Sunday morning than work that out...)

No connection to the District at Olympia though. You'd need to keep going to Clapham, then go around the Kingston Loop and join the District line at Wimbledon!

 

[faltskog36abba]

I definitely remember taking this route from Manchester Victoria in the mid 1980’s as far as Nottingham. I think the destination was Harwich Parkeston Quay and it originated further north, quite possibly in Scotland. It was a named service, “North West Dane” or similar?

The European -It was still running in early 87.

 

[Class15]

Here’s how to do the Manchester - London - Southend service (I THINK):

Manchester - Willesden (WCML)
Willesden - Clapham (WLL)
Clapham - Richmond via Kingston (SW lines)
Richmond - Richmond via the circle line and Victoria (LUL)
Richmond - Clapham via Kingston (SW lines)
Clapham - Willesden (WLL)
Willesden - Stratford (NLL)
Stratford - Southend (GEML)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Here’s how to do the Manchester - London - Southend service (I THINK):

Manchester - Willesden (WCML)
Willesden - Clapham (WLL)
Clapham - Richmond via Kingston (SW lines)
Richmond - Richmond via the circle line and Victoria (LUL)
Richmond - Clapham via Kingston (SW lines)
Clapham - Willesden (WLL)
Willesden - Stratford (NLL)
Stratford - Southend (GEML)

If my reading of Google maps is correct, that won't work because there's no connection between SWR and the District Line/Overground at Richmond. Since as @greatkingrat pointed out, there's no connection at Olympia either, it looks to me like so the only place you can join the District Line is at Wimbledon.

I'm also not entirely clear whether you can get directly from Olympia to the SWR mainline towards Wimbledon at Clapham Junction to do your Richmond via Kingston bit - my eyes failed me trying to decipher the maze of points and crossings at Clapham Junction on Google maps: But you can certainly do it going via Putney and then (ironically) the District line to Wimbledon, before you hit the problem at Richmond

 

[The exile]

The European -It was still running in early 87.

There was also (briefly) a North West Dane. Think that once the European was rerouted via not quite London, its sprinter replacement (150 all the way from Harwich to Liverpool) became either the Loreley or the Rhinelander.

 

[Class15]

If my reading of Google maps is correct, that won't work because there's no connection between SWR and the District Line/Overground at Richmond. Since as @greatkingrat pointed out, there's no connection at Olympia either, it looks to me like so the only place you can join the District Line is at Wimbledon.

I'm also not entirely clear whether you can get directly from Olympia to the SWR mainline towards Wimbledon at Clapham Junction to do your Richmond via Kingston bit - my eyes failed me trying to decipher the maze of points and crossings at Clapham Junction on Google maps: But you can certainly do it going via Putney and then (ironically) the District line to Wimbledon, before you hit the problem at Richmond

Oh right. So maybe then…
Manchester - Wembley (WCML)
Wembley - Clapham (WLL)
Clapham - Wimbledon via Kingston (SW lines)
Wimbledon - Wimbledon (via the sub-surface lines)
Wimbledon - Clapham via Kingston (SW lines)
Clapham - Stratford (NLL)
Stratford - Southend (GEML)

 

[Egg Centric]

Getting back to my question, does anyone know of a Victoria-Victoria (any combo) charter/tour/service(!) that has actually run?

 

[greatkingrat]

I've found one (London) Victoria - (Manchester) Victoria charter in 2007

Six Bells Junction

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Which ironically didn't use the Ordsall Chord (which hadn't been built at the time), and instead went vis the route I suggested via Earlestown. It also didn't use the WCML at the London end, going out via Reading and Oxford instead. (I didn't even realise you could access the GWR from Olympia, but hey, you learn something every day!)

 

[Egg Centric]

I've found one (London) Victoria - (Manchester) Victoria charter in 2007

Six Bells Junction

Thank you. This makes me strangely happy.