Victoria station Platform 19 can take 16 carriages?

[chriskeene]

Last friday (14 Oct), i was on a train from Brighton to Victoria, 9.18 i think.

Was in carriage 5 of 8 (anything in front of that gets very busy at gatwick) and was surprised when it pulled in to the platform that we stopped so soon. There was an 8 car train (another red Gatwick express) already in the platform.

I was surprised that the doors opened straight away considering it's unusual to have a train longer than 12 coaches. Presumably the rear couple of coaches had to get out on to the concrete, badly lit part before the platforms proper start.

Does anyone have any info on this, was it a mistake? can p19 at victoria official take 16 coaches in passenger service

 

[swt class 450]

Last friday (14 Oct), i was on a train from Brighton to Victoria, 9.18 i think.

Was in carriage 5 of 8 (anything in front of that gets very busy at gatwick) and was surprised when it pulled in to the platform that we stopped so soon. There was an 8 car train (another red Gatwick express) already in the platform.

I was surprised that the doors opened straight away considering it's unusual to have a train longer than 12 coaches. Presumably the rear couple of coaches had to get out on to the concrete, badly lit part before the platforms proper start.

Does anyone have any info on this, was it a mistake? can p19 at victoria official take 16 coaches in passenger service

Im not 100% sure but it does look long enough to take 16 coaches. On Friday Evening i boarded a 12 coach 387/2 on platform 19 and walked to the front coach and there still looked to be quite a lot of platform space on the dark badly lit part of the platform.

 

[Deepgreen]

Im not 100% sure but it does look long enough to take 16 coaches. On Friday Evening i boarded a 12 coach 387/2 on platform 19 and walked to the front coach and there still looked to be quite a lot of platform space on the dark badly lit part of the platform.

I too think it can (just) physically take 16 coaches, but I would be surprised if all the doors were released at the back, leading onto a 'prohibited' section of platform.

 

[tsr]

Officially it's only a 12 coach platform in accordance with Southern documentation and (at least my copy of) the NR Sectional Appendix.

However, in reality the platform is listed as 318m long and can accommodate over 15 and a half coaches of 377 stock. In addition, the train would have needed to enter via the Brighton Reversible (not the usual route for GX trains at most times of day) in order that the rear few coaches weren't actually straddling the junction and half way between Platforms 18 & 19.

From personal experience, this would not be the first time, however, that I have known a signaller to bring too many coaches into a platform at Victoria, and to be fair, drivers sometimes do not query what is in the platform if they are bringing in 8 coaches or fewer - and worse still, sometimes they have opened all doors with some not accommodated by the platform. I would stress this is rare and I don't know if it happened here. I don't want to speculate and certainly not bring a driver into disrepute unnecessarily.

You can remotely lock out doors on Electrostars from Mitrac so in the best case scenario the rear door may have been locked out of use straight away by the driver upon arrival. If the train was really close to the one at the London end it might just have been on the platform, as I think I have seen this, but the positioning would be really tight.

Technically the whole of Platform 19 is an authorised walking route and off-duty staff are permitted to use it to access various facilities, and I believe it is still deemed safe for passengers in an emergency, but as has correctly been pointed out, it's not well-lit or particularly pleasant.

I'm sure anything which needs to be investigated will be, but internally, and I have no desire to speculate on possible outcomes of that.

 

[30907]

Platforms on the Brighton/Central/Southern side at Victoria were rebuilt about 1901 to take two trains (8-SUB electric stock later) with a centre track on the outer half. 16-17 (now 18-19) werentvquite the same layout but were still double length. Even though they've been shortened since, the platforms could probably just take 16.

 

[JonathanH]

RTT suggests that trains using platform 19 were:

1U43 0920 Gatwick Airport to London Victoria
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W71595/2016/10/14/advanced

and the train mentioned by the original poster

1A25 0918 Brighton to London Victoria
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70105/2016/10/14/advanced

It seems to have been vacated in two steps

1A32 1030 London Victoria to Brighton (terminated at Haywards Heath)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70135/2016/10/14/advanced

which departed at 1044 (a bug with the feed means that departures from platform 19 don't always show up as going from there)

and

5T43 1011 London Victoria to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W78025/2016/10/14/advanced

which departed at 1114

There were movements into and out of platform 18 while the train was in platform 19.

If there really were two 8-car trains there, it would be interesting to know whether the 1030 left as 12-car and the empty stock train as 4-car.

 

[J-2739]

Valuable for them 16-car services in the dystopian future, he he.

 

[redbutton]

If this is the incident I heard about, then it wasn't a planned move. My understanding is that Control advised the signallers that the first train was running as a 4 vice 8-car when in reality it was 8 as booked.

The second train (at the country end) then had to start its return service in advance of the starter signal after coming to a clear understanding with the signaller.

 

[Deepgreen]

If this is the incident I heard about, then it wasn't a planned move. My understanding is that Control advised the signallers that the first train was running as a 4 vice 8-car when in reality it was 8 as booked.

The second train (at the country end) then had to start its return service in advance of the starter signal after coming to a clear understanding with the signaller.

There two starters on platforms 18 and 19, to account for the scissors crossing at the entrance to the platforms. Did it foul the outer starter too?

 

[redbutton]

There two starters on platforms 18 and 19, to account for the scissors crossing at the entrance to the platforms. Did it foul the outer starter too?

I don't know whether it was just one signal or both.

However, I was able to find out that the driver did do a selective release so that only the doors on the serviceable platform were released.

 

[chriskeene]

Thanks to all for the informative responses.

Impressed this doesn't happen more often, must be easy to presume there is room for a 4 or 8car.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I believe platform 18 is also of a similar length

 

[tsr]

I believe platform 18 is also of a similar length

Pretty much exactly the same length, but also limited to 12 Electrostar coaches in normal operation.

 

[swt class 450]

Pretty much exactly the same length, but also limited to 12 Electrostar coaches in normal operation.

Can platform 2 at London Victoria fit 16 coaches as well?

 

[Deepgreen]

Can platform 2 at London Victoria fit 16 coaches as well?

I think it is 17, plus a loco at each end.

 

[swt class 450]

I think it is 17, plus a loco at each end.

So basically it could fit about 19 coaches (without any locomotives)? I imagine this is why platform 2 is always used for railtours (which usually seem to be very long).

 

[Busaholic]

Can platform 2 at London Victoria fit 16 coaches as well?

This isn't really my field, so I could be talking through my hat, but I had many years of using Platform 2 in particular, often at the end of the p.m. peak or in early/mid evening and, with only a half=hourly service on the Orpington line there was always a build-up of passengers on the concourse waiting for the platform to be announced. Often, you'd only have five minutes and the announcement would be 'front 4 carriages' only. You often then had to pass eight unlit carriages to get to the front four, but I do seem to remember sometimes passing two empty trains to get to the front, and I think that sometimes meant 12 empty carriages, so 16 carriages in the platform, but I could well be mistaken. Platform 2 was certainly much more used for that service in the evening than 1,3 or 4.

 

[ComUtoR]

Platform 2 is listed as 14 in the sectional appendix. (The version I have)

 

[Deepgreen]

So basically it could fit about 19 coaches (without any locomotives)? I imagine this is why platform 2 is always used for railtours (which usually seem to be very long).

I appear to have over-egged the length a little, and it's worth bearing mind that most tours are only 12 coaches, but with a loco at each end, which makes them seem longer. Recently, too, steam tours have been limited on the whole network to 12 coaches (previously up to 14 occurred), so anything longer will be diesel/electric-powered.

 

[gsnedders]

Why are there such long platforms, though? I can't imagine there were ever regularly such long trains? Space for a run-around?

 

[Cowley]

Why are there such long platforms, though? I can't imagine there were ever regularly such long trains? Space for a run-around?

I don't know the answer but were some of the boat trains quite long with extra baggage cars etc?

 

[hwl]

I don't know the answer but were some of the boat trains quite long with extra baggage cars etc?

They were and they used P2.

 

[yorksrob]

Platform 2 is listed as 14 in the sectional appendix. (The version I have)

3 4-carriage EMU's (Usually CEP), 1 MLV (Motor luggage van) and 1 TLV (Trailer luggage van).

 

[Bald Rick]

Why are there such long platforms, though? I can't imagine there were ever regularly such long trains? Space for a run-around?

Railways have been around nearly 200 years, and the basic platform configuration of Victoria hasn't changed much since the days of steam on the SE division. Trains of 14+ coaches were very much the norm.

 

[DasLunatic]

Railways have been around nearly 200 years, and the basic platform configuration of Victoria hasn't changed much since the days of steam on the SE division. Trains of 14+ coaches were very much the norm.

... so why are all passenger trains in the UK (except the Eurostar and sleepers) now no longer than twelve coaches? With the way passenger numbers are expected to increase, why are we not seeing trains with more than one coach, even though trains of this length ran decades before with no issues?

 

[otomous]

... so why are all passenger trains in the UK (except the Eurostar) now no longer than twelve coaches? With the way passenger numbers are expected to increase, why are we not seeing trains with more than one coach, even though trains of this length ran decades before with no issues?

Because most busy routes run far more trains at more frequent intervals than in Victorian days rather than fewer irregular but longer trains. And the traffic that used to fill some of the much longer trains - continental travellers, seaside reliefs etc, has mostly gone.

As for the one car trains, this is most likely a legacy of the falling traffic on provincial routes forcing BR to reduce investment in the stock used on them. No one saw the upswing in traffic then and the franchising system unfortunately does not allow TOCs to easily respond to demand with longer trains even if they know it will bring in enough revenue to cover them. It has to be specified by the DfT or justified in terms of cost covering. Hence why the likes of the Northern franchise is only now getting more stock.

 

[Bald Rick]

... so why are all passenger trains in the UK (except the Eurostar) now no longer than twelve coaches? With the way passenger numbers are expected to increase, why are we not seeing trains with more than one coach, even though trains of this length ran decades before with no issues?

Umm - sleepers? Or 11 coach Pendolinos (265m, ie rather longer than the 240m of a standard 12 coach train).

Besides, back then there were rather different attitudes to stopping long trains at short platforms. If you fell out it was your own fault.

 

[30907]

Railways have been around nearly 200 years, and the basic platform configuration of Victoria hasn't changed much since the days of steam on the SE division. Trains of 14+ coaches were very much the norm.

In the case of the SED 14 would have been unusual for a hauled Boat train, with the obvious exception of the Night Ferry for which platform 2 was ideal, and for Kent Coast services even 11 was long, because of platform lengths at the London termini. 13 was not uncommon on the SW.