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Very quick AP query.

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Any Permitted

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I'm sat on the train right now so a quick answer would be super.

I have an AP ticket Great Yarmouth - Bristol Temple Meads.

I'm booked onto the 1300 Norwich - LST but only as far as Stratford. Can I stay on to LST and count it as part of my cross-London transfer to Paddington?
 
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MikeWh

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I'm 99.99% certain you can. LU/NR ticketing is interchangeable between Stratford and Liverpool Street.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Officially I would say no, but have a word with the guard.

My reasoning is, Great Yarmouth-Bristol TM advances are 'rte AP London Reading', so do not benefit from the '& connections' restrictions (easements). You are on a bookable service and so remaining on it would be a clear 'change of travel plans'.

The guard may not be that bothered if you ask him/her, ofcourse the barrier staff at LST might take exception to it too.
 

Any Permitted

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Officially I would say no, but have a word with the guard.

My reasoning is, Great Yarmouth-Bristol TM advances are 'rte AP London Reading', so do not benefit from the '& connections' restrictions (easements). You are on a bookable service and so remaining on it would be a clear 'change of travel plans'.

The guard may not be that bothered if you ask him/her, ofcourse the barrier staff at LST might take exception to it too.

I'll talk to the guard but the barrier staff at LST aren't really an issue, I can just show them my ticket without showing them my reservations.

Thanks for your help, I hope this is okay because changing trains at Stratford with the huge luggage I have is going to be a pain in the backside otherwise.
 

W-on-Sea

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I'm pretty sure you can stay on, on the basis that LU and NR tickets are interavailable between LST & Stratford.

But - in fact, with luggage - it might even be in your best interests to change at Stratford. It's a cross platform interchange to the Central line westbound (if you arrive in Platform 5, anyway, as I think you would - if not then there are lifts at each end of the subways). Changing there for the tube (then changing again from the Central Line to one of the sub-service lines at either Liverpool Street or Notting Hill Gate, to get on to Paddington. Not sure which of these is preferable - there are pros and cons in each case. Possibly NHG has a slightly shorter walk between lines in the direction you're going) would save you having to lug your, erm, luggage across the best part of the width of Liverpool Street and the general crowdedness and chaos of the entry to the tube there

In fact, what I would do and have done on such a journey- with lots of luggage - would be cross-platform interchange to the Central line at Stratford, then again cross-platform interchange to the Hammersmith & City line at Mile End. That will take you to Paddington with the absolutely minimum of walking/dragging/carrying luggage.

(EDIT: Just realised by the time I made this post it's probably already too late...)
 
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MikeWh

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My reasoning is, Great Yarmouth-Bristol TM advances are 'rte AP London Reading', so do not benefit from the '& connections' restrictions (easements). You are on a bookable service and so remaining on it would be a clear 'change of travel plans'.

The guard may not be that bothered if you ask him/her, ofcourse the barrier staff at LST might take exception to it too.

The other side of the issue is that there is no specified train to catch from Stratford because no-one can tell which Underground train it is going to be. Therefore between Stratford and Paddington you are free to take any train(s) to complete your journey. Underground tickets are fully interavailable between Stratford and Liverpool Street so I really don't see how NXEA could insist that staying on the train is not valid.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Because Advance tickets are only valid on the booked trains (unless routed '& connections'), so if travelling on a service that is reservable, without a reservation for that part of the journey, it is a clear change of travel plans, for which an additional fare would be payable.

If it had been intended to travel on that service into LST, the reservation would have been to Liverpool Street, not Stratford. That would have meant, officially, that it would not be valid on the LUL/DLR services from Stratford to London for the same reason (change of travel plans).
 

MikeWh

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I understand what you are saying, and I know that the issue asked by the OP is now finished, but in this particular instance there really is a flaw to your argument. This is what the SET booking system says about the journey:
Depart:
Great Yarmouth dep. 11:17
Change at:
Norwich arr. 11:50
dep. 12:00
Stratford London arr. 13:45
London Underground
London Paddington dep. 15:00
Arrive:
Bristol Temple Meads, 16:39
Changes: 3 Duration: 5h 22m
Passengers
1 Adult
Advance Single£37.00
valid via: Via Reading & London
Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee.
As you can see, it says nothing apart from "London Underground" for the section between Stratford and Paddington. Now, you cannot even do that journey on one train, let alone a suggested train, or as you seem to insist a booked train. There just isn't a booked train. The passenger is expected to make their own way from Stratford to Paddington. This can be accomplished in numerous ways, among them being to change at Liverpool Street. Now between Stratford and Liverpool Street tickets are inter-available meaning that the Underground will accept NXEA tickets and NXEA will accept Underground tickets. So, the only possible issue is whether you can use a reservable train to form part of a connecting service. I'm not convinced that you can't. If someone purchased an Underground ticket and decided to use NXEA between Stratford and Liverpool Street would NXEA turn round and say they can't use this train because they don't have a reservation for it? I don't think so. In this case the ticket for the journey is effectively an Underground ticket via any chosen route between Stratford and Paddington which might include Stratford to Liverpool Street. Why is this a different Underground ticket to one which is purchased for a local journey in London.

In summary, I do understand your arguments where they relate to journeys that the planner will always give specific trains for. We've discussed where a connecting train from say Torquay runs in front of the booked train between Newton Abbott and Exeter so could the passenger change at Newton Abbott instead of Exeter as per the reservation. In that instance I will cede to your letter of the rules and agree that you can't, although I think most guards would in practice allow it. But in this specific case, where no specific trains have been listed, I don't see how it is not valid for the ticket to be used in the way that the OP suggested. Neither the ticket, nor the reservation coupon(s) nor any valid itinerary says what train(s) to get between Stratford and Paddington. All it says is London Underground, and for the section between Stratford and Liverpool Street that can also include NXEA if the passenger so wishes.
 

yorkie

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I'm sat on the train right now so a quick answer would be super.

I have an AP ticket Great Yarmouth - Bristol Temple Meads.

I'm booked onto the 1300 Norwich - LST but only as far as Stratford. Can I stay on to LST and count it as part of my cross-London transfer to Paddington?
Uh-oh, here we go again!!! :lol::lol:

A cross-London transfer from Stratford to Paddington is valid on any reasonable LU lines, and also on any train from Stratford to Liverpool St and then LU from there. For example, you could take the Central line the whole way from Stratford to Lancaster Gate and then walk from there to Paddington. Or you could take the Met from Liverpool St to Baker St, then the Bakerloo. Or you could take the H&C/Circle from Liverpool St to Paddington. Plus other, more complicated possibilities (including changing at Mile End - which is cross-platform).

There is absolutely nothing in the public domain to say you cannot continue to Liverpool St. The idea that you have to get off that train and get another is, in my opinion, absurd.

There's a myth that you cannot use "reservable" trains on unreserved legs. However this claim is absurd, defies common sense, is unenforceable, not documented anywhere, and it is impossible to determine if a train is "reservable" from departure boards.

Of course, we've had this all before. My view has not changed.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I understand what you are saying, and I know that the issue asked by the OP is now finished, but in this particular instance there really is a flaw to your argument. This is what the SET booking system says about the journey:

As you can see, it says nothing apart from "London Underground" for the section between Stratford and Paddington. Now, you cannot even do that journey on one train, let alone a suggested train, or as you seem to insist a booked train. There just isn't a booked train. The passenger is expected to make their own way from Stratford to Paddington. This can be accomplished in numerous ways, among them being to change at Liverpool Street. Now between Stratford and Liverpool Street tickets are inter-available meaning that the Underground will accept NXEA tickets and NXEA will accept Underground tickets. So, the only possible issue is whether you can use a reservable train to form part of a connecting service. I'm not convinced that you can't. If someone purchased an Underground ticket and decided to use NXEA between Stratford and Liverpool Street would NXEA turn round and say they can't use this train because they don't have a reservation for it? I don't think so. In this case the ticket for the journey is effectively an Underground ticket via any chosen route between Stratford and Paddington which might include Stratford to Liverpool Street. Why is this a different Underground ticket to one which is purchased for a local journey in London.

In summary, I do understand your arguments where they relate to journeys that the planner will always give specific trains for. We've discussed where a connecting train from say Torquay runs in front of the booked train between Newton Abbott and Exeter so could the passenger change at Newton Abbott instead of Exeter as per the reservation. In that instance I will cede to your letter of the rules and agree that you can't, although I think most guards would in practice allow it. But in this specific case, where no specific trains have been listed, I don't see how it is not valid for the ticket to be used in the way that the OP suggested. Neither the ticket, nor the reservation coupon(s) nor any valid itinerary says what train(s) to get between Stratford and Paddington. All it says is London Underground, and for the section between Stratford and Liverpool Street that can also include NXEA if the passenger so wishes.

I have no arguement with the point that, as an inter-available route, Stratford-Liverpool St. is valid by train, DLR or tube if a valid ticket is held.

However, you must agree that if the intent (and 'booked journey') was to go to Liverpool St. on that train they would have a reservation for it. As they do not, it is clear it was not the booked train and is therefore not valid for it.

If the train was non-reservable, (as the London Underground is) the exact train might not be indentified and in those cases any service that can reasonably have fitted the time period could be considered the 'booked train'.

....There is absolutely nothing in the public domain to say you cannot continue to Liverpool St. The idea that you have to get off that train and get another is, in my opinion, absurd....

Your opinion is irrelevant. The journey plan is agreed to when the ticket is bought, deviation from that is "a change of travel plans", which is subject to an admin fee and possibly a further fee depending on tickets available for the 'new journey'.

If the passenger had requested, at the time of booking, to remain on that train to Liverpool St., would you argue they could disembark at Stratford for the tube connection, even though they have a reservation to Liverpool St.?

....There's a myth that you cannot use "reservable" trains on unreserved legs. However this claim is absurd, defies common sense, is unenforceable, not documented anywhere....

Utter rubbish.

Dictionary.com said:
myth [mith]

–noun
1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.

A deviation from the journey plan is a change of travel plans. Travel where a reservation would have be given, but has not been, indicates a change of travel plans. What happens when there is a change of travel plans is documented (see below) and therefore is not myth.

freedictionary.com said:
Adj. 1. unenforceable - not enforceable; not capable of being brought about by compulsion; "an unenforceable law"; "unenforceable reforms"

A change of travel plans incurs an extra fare to be paid, this is documented (see below) and can be enforced.

Dictionary.com said:
document [doc-u-ment]

–noun
1. a written or printed paper furnishing information or evidence, as a passport, deed, bill of sale, or bill of lading; a legal or official paper.
2. any written item, as a book, article, or letter, especially of a factual or informative nature.
3. a computer data file.

–verb (used with object)
5. to furnish with documents.
6. to furnish with references, citations, etc., in support of statements made: a carefully documented biography.
7. to support by documentary evidence: to document a case.

Changes to travel plans are listed in the Advance fares conditions and should have been made clear at the time of purchase.

....Of course, we've had this all before. My view has not changed.

As with anyone else, you are entitled to your own views, even when they are wrong.
 

MikeWh

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If the train was non-reservable, (as the London Underground is) the exact train might not be indentified and in those cases any service that can reasonably have fitted the time period could be considered the 'booked train'.

I think we almost have agreement!

The train they were on is a service that fits the time period for making the connection and thus can be considered the 'booked train'.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think we almost have agreement!

The train they were on is a service that fits the time period for making the connection and thus can be considered the 'booked train'.

I fear not, I should have said 'any non-reservable service' as that is what I meant.

The reason I make this definition is that if the reservable service was their 'booked train' they'd have a reservation for it. If it was non-reservable, it would be impossible to hold a reservation for it, and thus impossible to distinguish from all the other non-reservable services.
 

MikeWh

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Can you quote where it says that the trains used for connecting purposes cannot be reservable? Or indeed where it says that a ticket valid for the Underground between Stratford and Liverpool Street cannot use any Central Line or NXEA service between those two stations?
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Can you show me where it says you can change the services which you are entitled to use? (excepting for tickets routed '& connections')
 

MikeWh

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Can you show me where it says you can change the services which you are entitled to use? (excepting for tickets routed '& connections')
I don't believe this is a change to the services that I am entitled to use. It is saying that I can use any service allowable on an Underground ticket between Stratford and Paddington. That happens to include the train that I have used to get to Stratford. There is nowhere that says you are allowed to use any train except the one you might already have been on. You need to remember that I am considering the part of the journey from Stratford to Liverpool Street as covered by the Underground validity of my ticket.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I don't believe this is a change to the services that I am entitled to use. It is saying that I can use any service allowable on an Underground ticket between Stratford and Paddington. That happens to include the train that I have used to get to Stratford....

Travel via London with a National Rail ticket includes the cost of Underground, DLR and FCC services on the 'Thameslink' route to cross London.

Therefore, the services the op is entitled to use from Stratford to Paddington are:

  • London Underground services
  • Docklands Light Railway services
  • First Capital Connect's 'Thameslink' services
  • The train the op is booked on
Which of those is satisfied by the use of the reservable train that the op is travelling on to get to Stratford? (bearing in mind the op is not booked on that service into Liverpool St.)
 

MikeWh

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But Underground tickets are also inter-available between Stratford and Liverpool Street with NXEA. That is slightly different to the Thameslink route which isn't directly mirrored by another Underground line. It is this fact that makes what I proposed valid.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Interavailability says that NR tickets are valid on the underground and LUL tickets are valid on NR services.

The op has an NR ticket.
 

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A cross London transfer is VALID on any NXEA train from Stratford to Liverpool St and then LU from LIverpool St to the applicable London terminal. There is no restriction whatsoever on loco hauled trains from Norwich being used for such cross London transfers.
 

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Interavailability says that NR tickets are valid on the underground and LUL tickets are valid on NR services.

The op has an NR ticket.
Are you really saying that NR tickets aren't available on NR services? What if the OP got off at Stratford then caught a non-reservable NR train, would that be allowed in your routeing guide?
 

yorkie

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Are you really saying that NR tickets aren't available on NR services? What if the OP got off at Stratford then caught a non-reservable NR train, would that be allowed in your routeing guide?




I think he is saying the reservable trains are not valid for the purpose of a cross London transfer ! This is not documented and defies all logic and common sense imo.

NR and LU tickets between stratford and Liverpool st are fully interchangeable

BTW there won't be a ticket check between SRA and LST anyway and the tickets will obviously operate the barriers do the entire debate is completely hypothetical anyway.
 

W-on-Sea

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Hmm, we've got this far without considering the issue of whether the stop at Stratford on the service from Norwich is "set down only"... which it presumably is.

In any case these are all rather silly technicalities. No *reasonable* guard is going to throw the OP off the train or attempt to charge them extra in these circumstances, regardless of possible interpretations of minutia of the conditions
 

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I never expected I'd start such a heated debate.

In any case these are all rather silly technicalities. No *reasonable* guard is going to throw the OP off the train or attempt to charge them extra in these circumstances, regardless of possible interpretations of minutia of the conditions

I don't think any rational human being is going to think that even a traveler with good knowledge of how the ticketing system works is going to understand why you can't use the ticket between Stratford and Liverpool Street.
 

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I never expected I'd start such a heated debate.

I would say it is clear that under normal circumstances the inter-availability of Stratford-Liverpool St tickets does not include Norwich trains that are puo/sdo at Stratford. This restriction being there to specifically bar local traffic using these trains. How this is enforced if at all is another matter though.

In this case as the ticket is booked to Stratford it could be argued that the train is not valid for the Stratford-LST-Paddington part although as the passenger was already on the train and is using an otherwise valid route it would be incredibly stupid to try and enforce the restriction on them.

I don't think any rational human being is going to think that even a traveler with good knowledge of how the ticketing system works is going to understand why you can't use the ticket between Stratford and Liverpool Street.

A better question may be why the AP ticket was routed to change at Stratford not Liverpool St in the first place.
 

John @ home

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A better question may be why the AP ticket was routed to change at Stratford not Liverpool St in the first place.
My guess is that a booking engine calculated a direct tube from Stratford to Lancaster Gate and a walk to be a minute or two quicker than an alternative route via Liverpool St. The timetabled recovery time between Stratford and Liverpool St would tend to exaggerate the amount of time needed for that route.

Different booking engines have different priorities in calculating where to change trains. When I book a St Pancras - Leeds via Sheffield ticket, the family of booking engines powered by thetrainline suggest a change at Chesterfield, presumably to ensure a same-platforn change. Other booking engines suggest a change at Sheffield, perhaps for better station facilities.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Are you really saying that NR tickets aren't available on NR services? What if the OP got off at Stratford then caught a non-reservable NR train, would that be allowed in your routeing guide?

No, I'm not saying NR tickets are not valid on NR trains. If you read through the thread you will see I noted FOUR routes the op could take to get to Paddington from Stratford.

  • On London Underground services
  • On Docklands Light Railway services
  • On FCC's 'Thameslink' services
  • The train the op is booked on
Obviously FCC's 'Thameslink' services are a non-starter as they don't serve Stratford. If they have a reservation on a train into Liverpool Street, that would be their only route as far as Liverpool Street.


I think he is saying the reservable trains are not valid for the purpose of a cross London transfer ! This is not documented and defies all logic and common sense imo....

I'm saying that using a reservable train without a reservation with an Advance ticket would be a clear change of travel plans (because you don't have a reservation). The cross London bit is a red herring, I didn't think it was that hard to work out personally.

....NR and LU tickets between stratford and Liverpool st are fully interchangeable....

NR tickets can be used on LUL and LUL tickets can be used on NR, I have already said that though. The point I'm making, which seems to be being missed by everybody, is that the op had a journey plan which did not include the reservable service from Stratford to Liverpool Street and so for that reason, the op's ticket is not valid on it.

....BTW there won't be a ticket check between SRA and LST anyway and the tickets will obviously operate the barriers do the entire debate is completely hypothetical anyway.

Maybe there won't be, but the op asked a question and should be given the facts, not opinion.

A cross London transfer is VALID on any NXEA train from Stratford to Liverpool St and then LU from LIverpool St to the applicable London terminal. There is no restriction whatsoever on loco hauled trains from Norwich being used for such cross London transfers.

Wrong.

A 'cross London transfer' is valid on LUL, DLR and FCC's 'Thameslink' services. The journey from Stratford to Liverpool Street can be made on NXEA trains with an NR or LUL ticket for the journey, but an Advance is only valid on the booked train(s) (unless routed '& connections').

Hmm, we've got this far without considering the issue of whether the stop at Stratford on the service from Norwich is "set down only"... which it presumably is....

Not really a concern in this case as the op was already onboard the train.

....In any case these are all rather silly technicalities. No *reasonable* guard is going to throw the OP off the train or attempt to charge them extra in these circumstances, regardless of possible interpretations of minutia of the conditions

I suggested talking to the guard. They wouldn't throw the op off the train, but could charge an admin fee and an excess for change of travel plans.

In this case as the ticket is booked to Stratford it could be argued that the train is not valid for the Stratford-LST-Paddington part although as the passenger was already on the train and is using an otherwise valid route it would be incredibly stupid to try and enforce the restriction on them....

The guard couldn't enforce anything in regard to boarding the train at a set down only stop because the op did not get on at that stop. However, in this case the guard could enforce the rule that the op didn't get off the train (change of travel plans).

....A better question may be why the AP ticket was routed to change at Stratford not Liverpool St in the first place.

Journey planners generally pick the quickest route according to the interchange and journey times they are programmed with.
 

MikeWh

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A 'cross London transfer' is valid on LUL, DLR and FCC's 'Thameslink' services. The journey from Stratford to Liverpool Street can be made on NXEA trains with an NR or LUL ticket for the journey, but an Advance is only valid on the booked train(s) (unless routed '& connections').

Then we come down to the fact that this ticket is sold against trading standards as unfit for purpose because there are no booked trains between Stratford and Paddington. You cannot argue against this point unless you can identify the booked Underground trains and show me how to ensure that I get the exact booked Underground trains.

Of course it isn't really unfit for purpose because it is valid for cross London transfer via any reasonable route using any reasonable trains. Stratford to Liverpool Street is valid as part of any reasonable route and both NXEA and the Central Line are valid with any LUL tickets, including those for cross London transfer, because the tickets are inter-available.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Lets break this down for the stubborn among us.
  • The ticket allows travel to 'London', 'cross London transfer' and travel from 'London'.
  • Cross London Transfer is travel on LUL, DLR or Thameslink services between London stations listed in 'the manual' (FRPP).
  • Advance tickets are only valid on booked trains unless routed '& connections'.
  • The Advance ticket the op has is on a booked train to Stratford it is only valid on that train for that part of the journey.
  • Inter-availability allows National Rail (NR) tickets to be used on London Underground (LUL) services and LUL tickets to be used on NR services along routes listed in the FRPP.
  • The op has a NR ticket.
  • If the op was booked to travel from Stratford to Liverpool Street on that reservable train, the op would have a reservation for it.
  • The op does not hold a reservation from Stratford to Liverpool Street and on to Paddington.
  • The op has two options at Stratford.

    (1) Use the service the op agreed to use when (s)he bought the ticket (which wasn't the reservable train the op was on as (s)he does not have a reservation for it), which may well be an NXEA service, to Liverpool Street and then cross London to Paddington by LUL, DLR or Thameslink services.

    (2) Use LUL, DLR or Thameslink services to cross London from Stratford to Paddington.
  • It may not be possible to indentify which non-reservable service the op had agreed to use.
  • If the op uses a reservable service from Stratford, it would be a clear change of travel plans as (s)he does not have a reservation for it.

So, when the op gets to Stratford the op must alight the booked train, as to stay on is a change of travel plans. The op then has a choice to travel by LUL, DLR or a non-reservable NXEA service (as it would not be possible to decide which one the 'booked' train is).
 

MikeWh

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When standing on the platform at Stratford, how do you know whether the NXEA service is reservable or not?
 

hairyhandedfool

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You don't need to know which is reservable as you know which train you agreed to take. If you don't know what you agreed to, why should the railway let you off?
 
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