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Various Questions

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higthomas

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Mods: I wasn't sure where to put this, please move if appropriate.

Anyway, I have two what do you think questions, and a more factual question:
  • Do you think there will ever be a new Locomotive hauled train, excluding sleepers. I will define new as using brand new carriages.
  • Do you think there will ever be any new hand opened doors on rolling stock exteriors.
  • Finally, more factual, why don't new commuter carriages have as many doors as old slam door stock had. It would reduce dwell times dramatically, which I know can be a problem at certain busy stations.
 
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Domh245

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Very Unlikely
Not for passengers. Maybe for staff, but that's unlikely (look at the argument about droplights on the SET).
I'm not sure. It may well be any of the following:-
The new doors are wider, so the total door area per carriage is similar (particularly on non-compartment stock)
You can't have an entire wall of doors, as there would be nowhere to put them when they open
Having lots of doors means that any air-conditioning is pointless

+probably some others, which I can't think of now
 

BestWestern

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No slam doors, very unlikely indeed.

As for less doors, mainly I would think down to their weight - big power doors are much heavier than single leaf hinged slam doors on old MK1 stock, having lots not only increases the overall weight of a vehicle but you have to support all that weight on the frame of the coach. If you have lots of door apertures supporting the weight becomes difficult, and more weight results from the beefed up structure you need to carry it all. They are also rather complex and a common cause of technical issues on a lot of trains, even reliable newish ones. And they take up lots of space - slammers had lots of doors because they hinged outwards and didn't clash with each other, whereas power doors need to slide along or inside the body of the coach.
 

ac6000cw

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  • Do you think there will ever be a new Locomotive hauled train, excluding sleepers. I will define new as using brand new carriages.
  • Do you think there will ever be any new hand opened doors on rolling stock exteriors.
  • Finally, more factual, why don't new commuter carriages have as many doors as old slam door stock had. It would reduce dwell times dramatically, which I know can be a problem at certain busy stations.

No.

No - for safety reasons, and because 'modern' passengers don't know what to do when faced with an inside-handle-less door ;)

My impression is that a big part of the dwell-time problem is not so much the door openings as the length of time it takes for the doors to be released once the train has stopped. Not all stock seems to suffer from this - the 365's on my local line are much faster at this than some more modern trains (although DOO operation on the 365's probably helps too).
 
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Kite159

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No.

No - for safety reasons, and because 'modern' passengers don't know what to do when faced with an inside-handle-less door ;)

My impression is that a big part of the dwell-time problem is not so much the door openings as the length of time it takes for the doors to be released once the train has stopped. Not all stock seems to suffer from this - the 365's on my local line are much faster at this than some more modern trains (although DOO operation on the 365's probably helps too).

I can see in the future, on sub-urban services (such as the Overground), all doors will be opened by the driver (similar to the underground) to reduce a few seconds from dwell-times. [similar to the 314s].

Always a good 'laugh' when stuck behind a tourist on a FGW HST trying to open the door
 

cjmillsnun

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1. No, sadly multiple units are the order of the day. If even the IEP is going to be a MU, then there is no chance that anything else will be anything other than that. You may even find that the new sleeper stock as it is a new build will also be a multiple unit of some kind.

2. No

3. Mainly for the reasons given above, and also the difference being that Mk1 stock had a separate strong underframe and weaker body, whereas modern stock is of monocoque construction. This means that the body itself provides all of the structural strength. You cut too many holes in it (doors), this reduces that strength and the crash worthiness of the coach.
 

jopsuk

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I can see in the future, on sub-urban services (such as the Overground), all doors will be opened by the driver (similar to the underground) to reduce a few seconds from dwell-times. [similar to the 314s].

This has pretty much happened- Overground has gone to Driver Only Operation. There is no guard. This is also the case, at least on suburban services, on several other operators- those I know are Chiltern, FCC, Greater Anglia and c2c. I think Southeastern have some DOO too, as do London Midland? SWT are entirely guard-worked. Not sure about Southern.
 

Domh245

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A lot of suburban trains are DOO, but I think that what kite159 meant was that the doors physically open, rather than just being released. Some southern metro services, as well as some mainline services and various others around the London area are DOO
 

joeykins82

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1) No. Distributed traction gives superior acceleration which is the order of the day on our congested rail network

2) Absolutely not.

3) The Crossrail class 345 will have 3 sets of double doors per 23m car. More doors means fewer seats though so this is only really an option for metro type services.
 

jopsuk

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has any country gone completely to units for passenger services? I think Japan may be closest- are there any remaining loco-hauled night services or have they all ceased with the ever expanding high speed network?
Unlike the French the Japanese went straight to distributed traction for their high speed trains- SNCF is still buying (with the latest TGV 2N2 second generation double deckers) power car+ carriage rake high speed trains, but their regional networks are going to entirely units and the next generation "conventional" intercities will be too.
 

ac6000cw

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1) No. Distributed traction gives superior acceleration which is the order of the day on our congested rail network

You might want to compare the tractive effort of a modern Bombardier or Siemens electric loco with that of a Pendolino etc. Sure, if you have an all-axles motored EMU it can provide high acceleration, but it comes at a high cost too - it's not a black-and-white decision.
 

Emyr

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Distributed traction deals better with greasy rails, minimising delays.
 

joeykins82

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There's also the extra 2/3 car length available for seating in the driving portions of a multiple unit compared to a loco/DVT
 

al.currie93

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You might want to compare the tractive effort of a modern Bombardier or Siemens electric loco with that of a Pendolino etc. Sure, if you have an all-axles motored EMU it can provide high acceleration, but it comes at a high cost too - it's not a black-and-white decision.

Very well said :P
 

3141

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Southern Region's 4SUBs and 4EPBs had a door for every 10 seats, and the 4VEPs were almost as well equipped - one coach in the set had eleven doors per side. Of course they were single doors, but compared with two double doors per side on most modern stock, which on some trains are quite narrow, those older trains enabled large numbers of people to get on and off quickly, and people were prepared to "move down inside the car" because they'd never be far from a door.

Nowadays people are reluctant to move down away from the doors, especially if they want to get out at an intermediate station, for fear that they won't be able to get past other standing passengers before the doors close.

But, as pointed out above, the layout of a modern train with vestibules at the doorways means that each extra set of doors reduces the number of seats.

In my opinion, the best design of train for use on an intensive metro service was London Transport's C stock, with four double doors per side. I'm very pleased that the Crossrail stock will have three doors. It means that every passenger will be that bit nearer a doorway which should speed up boarding and alighting. (Actually, at most stations the order of events is alighting and boarding.)

I know that the DfT specified detailed requirements for the Thameslink stock, but with only two doors per side I wonder whether, in practice, a crowded train will get delayed when a large number of passengers want to get off and a similar number want to get on. It only needs a problem on one coach out of twelve to delay the whole train.

For trains that will be used on intensive commuter services my preference is strongly for three doorways per side. It will mean at least eight fewer seats and maybe twelve, but if most passengers are going to have to stand anyway it makes sense to design the train so that people can get on and off as quickly as possible.
 

Kite159

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This has pretty much happened- Overground has gone to Driver Only Operation. There is no guard. This is also the case, at least on suburban services, on several other operators- those I know are Chiltern, FCC, Greater Anglia and c2c. I think Southeastern have some DOO too, as do London Midland? SWT are entirely guard-worked. Not sure about Southern.

I mean in the way of the underground, where the train stops and all the doors are opened by the driver rather than being released (and the passengers pressing the button to open the doors).

All to save a few seconds from the dwell times
 
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