Valley Lines electrification project...or not as may now be the case

[Haydn1971]

Vote for me ! Is there an election due soon ???

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Hmm, I remain to be convinced that there are many Tory votes to be won (or even Lib Dem ones) in most of the settlements served by the Valley Lines....

So do I. Although I live in the real world and know deep down that politics is always involved, if you truly love your country and want to serve, then you goals should be in the best interests of the nation not electrifying lines to get votes. I think Tories and Libs know that long-term, the whole nation needs to be looked after. Just look at Scotland who are saying - we are just going to do it and have a rolling program of electrification et al.

When long term, people see that all areas of the country get served and help and it is not just about London and the South East, we will have grown as a peoples.

 

[Tio Terry]

This may be of interest:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-30128378

 

[carriageline]

That's the link I included in the OP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So do I. Although I live in the real world and know deep down that politics is always involved, if you truly love your country and want to serve, then you goals should be in the best interests of the nation not electrifying lines to get votes. I think Tories and Libs know that long-term, the whole nation needs to be looked after. Just look at Scotland who are saying - we are just going to do it and have a rolling program of electrification et al.

When long term, people see that all areas of the country get served and help and it is not just about London and the South East, we will have grown as a peoples.

The Valleys plan was announced in 2012 as part of the CP5 HLOS.
You'd have to be ultra-cynical to say it was down to electioneering.
The good thing is that the spat between the two governments has been fixed.
Maybe the Scottish devolution debate gave it a final kick.
It clears the decks for rail devolution in the north...

 

[Gareth Marston]

And Cheshire and Gloucestershire (and routes into Manchester and Birmingham).

There's more people in England that are served by the "Borders" bit of the franchise than live in Wales. How Cardiff and the Welsh a Government having the final say fits in with devolution of powers to Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham remains unclear.

 

[455driver]

(doesn't say if infrastructure is devolved or not).

Bearing in mind Westminster are spending 105m English pounds on the Welsh I would hope they keep hold of the line to get some money back on the investment.

 

[Class 170101]

Hmm some interesting things there.

The Vale of Glamorgan line between Cardiff and Bridgend who pays for the wiring of this route? DfT or the Welsh Assembly - Some Swansea trains run this way.

And the modern trains if not 315s then what will they be? Never mind the cost.

 

[snowball]

Should this thread be merged with the main Valley Lines electrification thread, which had the news several hours earlier?

 

[ReeceEmmitt]

Re: the timescales

Front of today's Western Mail says:

"Work could start on Valley Lines electrification as early as 2019."

 

[Welshman]

So the deal is the Welsh and Westminster Governments will pay half each.
And just how long did it take them to work that out.....?

More interestingly, did I not hear something about part of the deal being to allow the Welsh Government to award the next franchise when ATW's incumbency ends? What was that recently about the Welsh Government's plan for a "not for profit" franchise? Interesting times.

 

[WatcherZero]

Two years

 

[Bald Rick]

Re: the timescales

Front of today's Western Mail says:

"Work could start on Valley Lines electrification as early as 2019."

They've been going 25 minutes then!

 

[merlodlliw]

PM to announce it today in Newport.

Westminster will contribute to electrification of GWML to Swansea paying for and responsible for delivering the Cardiff-Bridgend section at a cost of £105m.
Wales and Border franchise will be fully devolved to Wales from 2018 (doesn't say if infrastructure is devolved or not).

At meetings in Cardiff, the Minister for Rail appears keen to have the infrastructure taken under the wing of Cardiff Bay,this is has a result of the partial Wrexham redouble fiasco which is now well over budget and running six months late.

 

[edwin_m]

So do I. Although I live in the real world and know deep down that politics is always involved, if you truly love your country and want to serve, then you goals should be in the best interests of the nation not electrifying lines to get votes. I think Tories and Libs know that long-term, the whole nation needs to be looked after. Just look at Scotland who are saying - we are just going to do it and have a rolling program of electrification et al.

When long term, people see that all areas of the country get served and help and it is not just about London and the South East, we will have grown as a peoples.

While I don't have much regard for most of what the current government has done, I do believe their investment in the rail network has been motivated by a genuine wish to improve the competitiveness of the UK and spread the wealth beyond the south-east. There has probably been more investment in the railways in the last decade than in any since the 60s.

 

[HowardGWR]

While I don't have much regard for most of what the current government has done, I do believe their investment in the rail network has been motivated by a genuine wish to improve the competitiveness of the UK and spread the wealth beyond the south-east. There has probably been more investment in the railways in the last decade than in any since the 60s.

If it's 'the last decade' then both this and the last government deserves credit. personally I give nearly all the credit to Adonis and Livingstone. The new lot realised that it was a 'good thing' as patronage soared and good for them that they did.

 

[edwin_m]

There's more people in England that are served by the "Borders" bit of the franchise than live in Wales. How Cardiff and the Welsh a Government having the final say fits in with devolution of powers to Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham remains unclear.

I think to get this you would have to include Birmingham, Manchester, etc, but ATW would carry only a small minority there. Even in Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford a bit chunk of the patronage will be with "English" operators to and from the east.

However there is a real issue with the Marches line which provides important links within England as well as unifying the Welsh network. Chester-Warrington, Shrewsbury-Crewe and Wrexham-Bidston are solely worked by ATW but primarily English routes (the last one more debateable) and could be transferred to Northern or TPE if necessary.

 

[anthony263]

Godd to see this whole mess sorted out somewhat.

As for the rolling stock I doubt the Valley lines will get brand new units unless its part of a much larger order such as jointly with new units for Merseyrail/Scotrail etc.

Perhaps new units for the south east casading units such as the class 350's etc to other parts of the uk

 

[GRALISTAIR]

While I don't have much regard for most of what the current government has done, I do believe their investment in the rail network has been motivated by a genuine wish to improve the competitiveness of the UK and spread the wealth beyond the south-east. There has probably been more investment in the railways in the last decade than in any since the 60s.

If it's 'the last decade' then both this and the last government deserves credit. personally I give nearly all the credit to Adonis and Livingstone. The new lot realised that it was a 'good thing' as patronage soared and good for them that they did.

Trying not to get too political but if you look at electrification (narrow view I know) + Channel Tunnel getting built etc, it is pretty obvious which political shade has done a huge amount for railways.

I remember Roger Ford being interviewed for one documentary and him saying "It is not politically correct to say so, but the railways did rather well under Margaret Thatcher". I will post Youtube clip when I get around to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyjH9rWOcSM Try 55 -56 minutes

 

[Rhydgaled]

And the modern trains if not 315s then what will they be? Never mind the cost.

Is that just 'modern' or did they really say 'more modern', in comparison to the Pacers. In which case it could be just about anything from the mrk3-derived EMU series, essentially something similar to the 150s used at the moment. I wonder though whether there is a requirement for two different types, 75mph units for the lines through Cardiff Queen Street and 90-100mph ones for Maesteg/Swansea-Ebbw Vale and Ebbw Vale - Newport? Also, are there going to be Swansea-Bristol services and if so which franchise will they belong to?

Godd to see this whole mess sorted out somewhat.

As for the rolling stock I doubt the Valley lines will get brand new units unless its part of a much larger order such as jointly with new units for Merseyrail/Scotrail etc.

Perhaps new units for the south east casading units such as the class 350's etc to other parts of the uk

ScotRail's order is already annouced, so if any piggybacking is done it would probably need to be a Merseyrail order. Or new stock for the NSE TOCs to cascade other units, although that's what I'm hopeing for in terms of a DMU cascade (SWT, I'm looking at you, a bi-mode 444-alike perhaps to replace your 158s and 159s)

 

[Olaf]

Timescale has never been clear regarding the ValleyLines electrification, with 'completion by 2019' and 'completion from 2019-2024' being mentioned by various sources if I recall correctly.

The Welsh Valleys electrification comes under NR's project WL001; that project has not been updated since December 2013 which indicatives that there have been no changes to the original proposals so far.

The same plan indicates that the details of the formal implementation proposals are not due to be available until December 2015.

CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/cp5-delivery-plan/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan.pdf
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dates don't mean a lot until NR has reached Grip 3 in the project process (single option selection).
That's down as Dec 2015 in the CP5 plan.
Until then they are projects with an estimated budget and timescale.
I don't know what "accelerated gauge clearance works start Sept 2014" means.
Are some bridge works in progress somewhere?

Sorry, I missed this before posting.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Welsh Valleys electrification comes under NR's project WL001; that project has not been updated since December 2013 which indicatives that there have been no changes to the original proposals so far.

The same plan indicates that the details of the formal implementation proposals are not due to be available until December 2015.

CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/cp5-delivery-plan/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan.pdf

Thanks. While they haven't even selected a single option yet, it looks like they intend to do all the work in three years. Start on site Feb 2017 for completion Dec 2019. Hope is does turn out like that so the Wales & Borders franchise Pacers don't need to be given a derrogation to last into the early 2020s.

 

[gareth950]

Thanks. While they haven't even selected a single option yet, it looks like they intend to do all the work in three years. Start on site Feb 2017 for completion Dec 2019. Hope is does turn out like that so the Wales & Borders franchise Pacers don't need to be given a derrogation to last into the early 2020s.

BBC Wales is saying that 'work on electrification will take place between 2019-2024' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30154568 so this could mean:

1) We get cascaded 150s from FGW or Scotrail to replace at least the 142s in the valleys until electrification is complete (best option)

2) 142s are withdrawn in the next 5 years with no replacement rolling stock, meaning reduced capacity/short formed services or a reduced number of tph on some routes.

3) Our Pacer fleet, inc the 142s are expected to last another decade which is completely unfeasible. I had the misfortune of being on a 142 this week and I literally didn't feel safe on it. Luckily 75% of the time on my local route I get a 150, sometimes a 143.

Whatever happens, it looks like the valleys are expected to carry on using current diesels for another 10 years. Options 2 or 3 especially could easily damage passenger numbers in the next decade and drive more people into cars or onto buses.

 

[Rhydgaled]

1) We get cascaded 150s from FGW or Scotrail to replace at least the 142s in the valleys until electrification is complete (best option)

ScotRail don't have any 150s... They do however have a load of 156s which they will start releasing when their new EMUs start coming into service. I'd like to see either those 156s coming to Swansea for HOWL and Swansea-CMN/Pembs. services (in which case all ATW's 153s would be cascaded to other operators) or the 156s going to Northern in exchange for 155s and 153s which would go to Swansea. Result: a few 150s moved from HOWL and CMN/Pembs. work to the Valleys and 155s or 156s (refurbished with decent legroom and window alignment please) working the fairly lengthy regional services out of Swansea.

Hopefully though Network Rail will be correct and the BBC wrong in this case, so that the Valleys are EMU-worked by 2020 (but the thing about the 155s/156s still stands).

 

[Bletchleyite]

BBC Wales is saying that 'work on electrification will take place between 2019-2024' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30154568 so this could mean:

1) We get cascaded 150s from FGW or Scotrail to replace at least the 142s in the valleys until electrification is complete (best option)

2) 142s are withdrawn in the next 5 years with no replacement rolling stock, meaning reduced capacity/short formed services or a reduced number of tph on some routes.

3) Our Pacer fleet, inc the 142s are expected to last another decade which is completely unfeasible. I had the misfortune of being on a 142 this week and I literally didn't feel safe on it. Luckily 75% of the time on my local route I get a 150, sometimes a 143.

Whatever happens, it looks like the valleys are expected to carry on using current diesels for another 10 years. Options 2 or 3 especially could easily damage passenger numbers in the next decade and drive more people into cars or onto buses.

Why did you not feel safe on a 142? They are much safer than walking, cycling or going by car.

Neil

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hopefully though Network Rail will be correct and the BBC wrong in this case, so that the Valleys are EMU-worked by 2020 (but the thing about the 155s/156s still stands).

It's taken 5 years for the GW scheme to reach Grip 3, and we still don't know how the wiring will be done in South Wales (Relief lines etc).
The Valleys scheme is complex for its size and there will be debates about service frequency, capacity and rolling stock which affect the design, and also the sequencing of the work.
These debates will now be with WG who are not yet organised for it.

The NW scheme is managing to wire about 60stkm a year.
The NR plan says the Valleys scheme is 300stkm (subtracting the Cardiff-Bridgend section now part of the GW scheme), so that's about 5 years work.
I think we will be lucky to start on site before 2018, following on from the London-Swansea main line work which will establish some key infrastructure (power supplies etc).

 

[Grumpy]

. I had the misfortune of being on a 142 this week and I literally didn't feel safe on it.
.

Pacers have been used for 30 years and they haven't killed a passenger yet.

 

[Gareth Marston]

BBC Wales is saying that 'work on electrification will take place between 2019-2024' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30154568 so this could mean:

1) We get cascaded 150s from FGW or Scotrail to replace at least the 142s in the valleys until electrification is complete (best option)

2) 142s are withdrawn in the next 5 years with no replacement rolling stock, meaning reduced capacity/short formed services or a reduced number of tph on some routes.

3) Our Pacer fleet, inc the 142s are expected to last another decade which is completely unfeasible. I had the misfortune of being on a 142 this week and I literally didn't feel safe on it. Luckily 75% of the time on my local route I get a 150, sometimes a 143.

Whatever happens, it looks like the valleys are expected to carry on using current diesels for another 10 years. Options 2 or 3 especially could easily damage passenger numbers in the next decade and drive more people into cars or onto buses.

If Wales gets a cascade of even just half a dozen DMU's then a phased approach to wiring wil work. South Wales Mainline, Ebbw Vale an Measteg first with those cascaded DMU's should see the 142's replaced by 2019. Then do Rhmney to Penarth , Bay and Coryton and you'll see the 143's gone leaving the 150's on the Taff Valley lines last.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If Wales gets a cascade of even just half a dozen DMU's then a phased approach to wiring wil work. South Wales Mainline, Ebbw Vale an Measteg first with those cascaded DMU's should see the 142's replaced by 2019. Then do Rhmney to Penarth , Bay and Coryton and you'll see the 143's gone leaving the 150's on the Taff Valley lines last.

That makes a lot of sense in doing the Rhymney line(s) first , maybe doing Treherbet - Radyr - Cardiff next (followed by Aberdare and Merthyr together) - a sound cascade follows.....

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think to get this you would have to include Birmingham, Manchester, etc, but ATW would carry only a small minority there. Even in Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford a bit chunk of the patronage will be with "English" operators to and from the east.

However there is a real issue with the Marches line which provides important links within England as well as unifying the Welsh network. Chester-Warrington, Shrewsbury-Crewe and Wrexham-Bidston are solely worked by ATW but primarily English routes (the last one more debateable) and could be transferred to Northern or TPE if necessary.

Services in Shropshire are 80% run by ATW, Herefordshire 60%, Cheshire less so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That makes a lot of sense in doing the Rhymney line(s) first , maybe doing Treherbet - Radyr - Cardiff next (followed by Aberdare and Merthyr together) - a sound cascade follows.....

Certainly mainline first then you have options through Queen St. Rhymney is probably easier as it's doesn't split off into other routes.