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Valley Lines electrification project...or not as may now be the case

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Solaris

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I really can't see people in say Treherbert being happy with a tram train all the way down to Cardiff or Barry.

And then of course you have the question of ticketing and if it would be integrated with the rest of the railway. As someone who often travels between the valleys and Bath, I would certainly not be happy about having to pay extra because someone has decided to change the valleys to trams to save money.



There is no chance in hell that would be a viable way of doing it.



I'd imagine you would have to redouble the Pontypridd - Treherbert section to be able to get that frequency up that way.

Why wouldn't a Treherbert passenger be happy with a tram? If you get a more frequent service and perhaps faster journey? The blocker on demand is a function of both capacity and perhaps more importantly frequency...

What about integration with the bus network? Doesn't happen at all now?
 
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NSEFAN

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Solaris said:
Why wouldn't a Treherbert passenger be happy with a tram? If you get a more frequent service and perhaps faster journey? The blocker on demand is a function of both capacity and perhaps more importantly frequency...

What about integration with the bus network? Doesn't happen at all now?
Pacers aren't great but at least they have toilets, unlike a tram (which is also a valid concern for should PEP stock make its way to Cardiff). A loss of through ticketing from the valleys to the rest of the network is also a retrograde step.
 

Solaris

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Pacers aren't great but at least they have toilets, unlike a tram (which is also a valid concern for should PEP stock make its way to Cardiff). A loss of through ticketing from the valleys to the rest of the network is also a retrograde step.

Smart ticketing could help...the biggest issue though is the lack of integration between rail and bus.
 

NSEFAN

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Solaris said:
Smart ticketing could help...the biggest issue though is the lack of integration between rail and bus.
Indeed. We should be aiming to have all public transport in the country to be accessible with a single smartcard, rather than each company using their own system.
 

WelshBluebird

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Smart ticketing could help...the biggest issue though is the lack of integration between rail and bus.

I think there does need to be that integration, but I think integration between any potential valleys tram network and the rest of the mainline network is much more vital.

Why wouldn't a Treherbert passenger be happy with a tram? If you get a more frequent service and perhaps faster journey? The blocker on demand is a function of both capacity and perhaps more importantly frequency...

What about integration with the bus network? Doesn't happen at all now?

Would a tram service be able to give a faster journey though?
And would people be happy with a less comfortable service?
I think the answer to both is no.
 

Greenback

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I think there does need to be that integration, but I think integration between any potential valleys tram network and the rest of the mainline network is much more vital.

I agree. I wouldn't be as opposed to trams if they were part of the franchise with protected through fares.

However, the lack of toilets would worry me.

Would a tram service be able to give a faster journey though?
And would people be happy with a less comfortable service?
I think the answer to both is no.

I don't think that the trams will necessarily be faster or more comfortable than even the Pacers.

My own view is that the Valleys should remain as heavy rail. Whatever advantages there are with trams are outweighed by the disadvantages.
 

Olaf

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There are no level 3 ETCS systems working today ...

Thanks; a good update.

Perhaps the OP was referring to ETCS Level 2, Release 3?

However, I have not heard any mention of this being selected for the roll-out in the UK.
 

NotATrainspott

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Thanks; a good update.

Perhaps the OP was referring to ETCS Level 2, Release 3?

However, I have not heard any mention of this being selected for the roll-out in the UK.

I know that there are no working ETCS Level 3 systems at the moment but in the next decade the technology may become operationally feasible. Given that heavily refurbished PEP stock would last on the Valleys until then, it's then a question of whether tram-train conversion is worth it for the decades ahead when the cost of improved heavy rail signalling will drop so considerably.
 

HowardGWR

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Would not the Butetown shuttle from Queen St better be trammed and then extended on road to more convenient termini?
 

MarkyT

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I know that there are no working ETCS Level 3 systems at the moment but in the next decade the technology may become operationally feasible. Given that heavily refurbished PEP stock would last on the Valleys until then, it's then a question of whether tram-train conversion is worth it for the decades ahead when the cost of improved heavy rail signalling will drop so considerably.

I agree that potentially in the future the cost differential between signalling on nominally heavy or light rail could erode, but that's not the real question here, as the existing Valleys network is already fully equipped with modern signalling. There's nothing to be saved by ripping out a small amount of new equipment, only a possible very small maintenance saving if a few intermediate block signals could be removed for a 'drive on sight' operation. Note signals protecting junctions and single lines together with their train detection systems would still have to remain in some form. Whilst a freight operation continues to exist over some of the network, conventional signalling will be required even if tram derived vehicles were used, as the Tyne and Wear Metro experience on the Sunderland line demonstrates. That would also allows some through passenger workings from the main line using heavy rail stock to remain, mixed up with the tram-trains. The real opportunities in tram-train come from the ability to cheaply extend or change the network . . .

Would not the Butetown shuttle from Queen St better be trammed and then extended on road to more convenient termini?

. . . to the docks for instance, but even then the entire network doesn't have to be tram to do this. The advantage of tram train technology is that it can be run together with heavy rail, even sharing the same platforms at some stations if a high platform light rail standard was adopted.
 

HSTEd

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Edinburgh trams show how expensive trams are if you aren't very very careful.
 

MarkyT

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Edinburgh trams show how expensive trams are if you aren't very very careful.

The Edinburgh route was all new construction though, much on street with utility diversions and road layout changes. The work took far longer than anticipated and the disruption was very unpopular. Presumably the construction delays and mistakes were the main reasons for cost overrun.

Just replacing 2nd generation DMUs with tram-based units would not be so risky and costly and perhaps cheaper than a brand new heavy rail EMU fleet. All signals would no doubt have to be fitted with TPWS due to remaining freight, as on T&W Metro Sunderland lines.
 

edwin_m

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Tram-trains are likely to be more expensive per seat than trains, because they are usually smaller and have extra features needed for street running. So for a tram-train to be worthwhile there has to be some extra benefit which is most likely to be an important destination that can't be reached by heavy rail. The Bay (at least the parts of it beyond the former Bute Road station) may qualify as this? Other cost savings for trams such as driver only operation could be done equally well with trains - even line of sight operation if track brakes were fitted.

Trams also have fewer seats in an equivalent length of vehicle. A high floor tram specified for longer journeys might be supplied with a larger number of seats, as with the original Metrolink vehicles and the central section of the Karlsruhe tram-trains. This would be more difficult with a low floor as the seats have to be arranged to cover the boxes that enclose the wheels.
 

HSTEd

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Just replacing 2nd generation DMUs with tram-based units would not be so risky and costly and perhaps cheaper than a brand new heavy rail EMU fleet. All signals would no doubt have to be fitted with TPWS due to remaining freight, as on T&W Metro Sunderland lines.

What about your expansion schemes?
You are obviously going to want significant street running extensions - otherwise why bother with trams in the first place?
 

HowardGWR

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What about your expansion schemes?
You are obviously going to want significant street running extensions - otherwise why bother with trams in the first place?

Going back to Bute Road, it seems to me there is still enough room to extend heavy rail down to near the new millenium developments. Anyway, I don't understand why a service from Queen St to this area needs to be 'tram/train'. Why can't it just be tram, as it is a self contained route, n'est-ce pas?
 

MarkyT

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What about your expansion schemes?
You are obviously going to want significant street running extensions - otherwise why bother with trams in the first place?

Well I'm not pressing particularly for replacement of the existing fleet by trams, just saying that a tram based fleet MAY well be cheaper than a wholly new EMU order for the same number of seats. I don't subscribe to the view that tram based vehicles are necessarily inferior to heavy rail ones. T&W Metro and Docklands are all tram derived and are reasonable smooth riding large high platform units based on German Stadtbahn and similar designs. In Germany similar trams run partly on streets with high floor platforms, often coupled together in quite long trains. Such a fleet could allow construction of new lightly constructed branches all resourced from a common pool, but suitably expanded as required clearly for the new branch services.

However in the shorter term I think a refurbished classic fleet of 313s or similar could offer a perfect low cost initial solution. Perhaps after a few years service they could be supplemented by new tram-trains for new branches, then the old fleet could be replaced gradually by further orders.
 

NotATrainspott

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In the long term there's no reason why an electrified heavy rail Valleys network couldn't coexist with a proper tram network, in the way that German cities have an S-Bahn and a tram network working together but doing their own thing that they are suited for. Branches that end within the Cardiff contiguous area would be ideal for complete tram conversion in the long term, and there's no reason that street running could not be done as well to free up space at Central and Queen Street for more frequent heavy rail services. The Cardiff area is more than large enough to sustain the two networks side-by-side and the regeneration benefits it would bring would be enormous.
 

HSTEd

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Going back to Bute Road, it seems to me there is still enough room to extend heavy rail down to near the new millenium developments. Anyway, I don't understand why a service from Queen St to this area needs to be 'tram/train'. Why can't it just be tram, as it is a self contained route, n'est-ce pas?

Because this branch has plenty of potential for increasing the throughput of trains to the Northern branches.
If, for example, in the future the bottleneck north of Queen street is eliminated then the fourth through platform (I think its being fitted but if not it is certainly possible?) would enable the Coryton and Rhymney branches to become a self contained route, terminating at Cardiff bay.

That drastically simplifies the trackwork at Cardiff Queen Street and allows you to push to higher throughputs on the remaining two through platforms for the other branches.
This becomes especially true if something happens with the line to Cwm Bargoed.

And even if it remains self contained - are you really proposing we buy a tram fleet and a maintenance facility for a single unit shuttle?
 

MarkyT

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If, for example, in the future the bottleneck north of Queen street is eliminated then the fourth through platform (I think its being fitted but if not it is certainly possible?) would enable the Coryton and Rhymney branches to become a self contained route, terminating at Cardiff bay. . .

And even if it remains self contained - are you really proposing we buy a tram fleet and a maintenance facility for a single unit shuttle?

A shame for the Rhymney line not to retain a direct link to Central station. A revised tram link from Queen Street to the bay might also be more useful if it went via Central. I'd agree the Coryton line with its short station spacing could form a decent size tram scheme and could be extended on street to Radyr Junction, then perhaps beyond reinstating 4 tracks to Pontypridd with the tram taking over the intermediate stops, moved and supplemented to suit modern settlement and employment patterns.
 

HSTEd

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If we did go for such a scheme there would be 12-16 trains per hour between Queen Street and Central - so asking people to change is not likely to be a great imposition.
People don't demand tube lines connect directly to every possible destination - do you want mass transit or don't you?

And I don't want tram schemes - there appears to be no great impediment to extending the Coryton Branch through to Taff's Wells, where it could either terminate in a bay (if there is room for the platform and a third track) or possibly negotiate a junction and take over one or more of the branches north of there.

That would enable you to put more load into the bay branch - possibly up to 12 trains per hour.
 

Solaris

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What if the entire Rhymney line (inc Coryton) is converted to Tram - would just need separation from HR at Queens St (new span over Newport Rd and post CASR there will be 5 platrforms) and could run down to the bay and to central on street across Callaghan sq?? Ponty lines remain as HR?
 

anthony263

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I wouldnt mind seeing the Coryton branch converted to light rail and run as part of a circular service around Cardiff using a mixture of existing rail infrastructure with some on street running especially if it serves the University hospital of wales/Heath like Railfuture have proposed.

Such a service could run together with new east-west link across Cardiff
 

gareth950

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Away from all the speculation, does anyone know when the decision will HAVE TO be taken on what is going to happen?

There must be a deadline for when Network Rail will need to have a definite guarantee of who's paying and what scheme is going to happen to start drawing up plans? After all, the electrification scheme of the Valley lines was announced by the Westminster government over 2 years ago now........
 

deltic08

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What if the entire Rhymney line (inc Coryton) is converted to Tram - would just need separation from HR at Queens St (new span over Newport Rd and post CASR there will be 5 platrforms) and could run down to the bay and to central on street across Callaghan sq?? Ponty lines remain as HR?

What a come down for Rhymney. Only a short while ago it was loco hauled air-conditioned InterCity coaches four across seating with tables. Trams will not provide this comfort. What is the obsession with converting perfectly good HR with trams in this country?
 

Solaris

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What a come down for Rhymney. Only a short while ago it was loco hauled air-conditioned InterCity coaches four across seating with tables. Trams will not provide this comfort. What is the obsession with converting perfectly good HR with trams in this country?


Higher service frequency and lower opcost?
 

HSTEd

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Higher service frequency and lower opcost?

Lower operating cost is achieved by reductions in capability and in pay for staff.
Light rail is not fundamentally cheaper to operate.

And high frequency is going to cost you more - because of all the extra staff you need, even with the lower individual salaries.
 

Solaris

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Lower operating cost is achieved by reductions in capability and in pay for staff.
Light rail is not fundamentally cheaper to operate.

And high frequency is going to cost you more - because of all the extra staff you need, even with the lower individual salaries.

Not sure I agree.... yes more services will cost more but LR has a lower opcost per passenger. Higher frequencies (GT 4tph) of LR vs HR (say 2tph at valley heads) drives more demand and so farebox on more efficient cost base.
LR is fundamentally cheaper to operate if there is sufficient demand.

According to ONS the Cardiff urban area (which extends to Caerphilly and Pontypridd) is more densely populated than the Manchester Urban area - so core valleys line ideal for LR.

Better example might be Croydon Tramlink with pax of ~30M including strong off peak demand (driven by higher service frequencies).
 

HSTEd

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The capital expenditure neccesary for a tram conversion will get you those service frequencies and electrification. Having signals will also allow superior capacity in degraded conditions (rain, etc)
 
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Greenback

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The capital expenditure neccesary for a tram conversion will get you those service frequencies and electrification.

I agree, but the point Solaris is making is about lower operating costs year on year for light rail after the conversion.

My problem with this is firstly whether operating costs will actually be lower, and secondly, assuming that they are, such savings come at the cost of passenger facilities like toilets, luggage racks, seating comfort (not that such things are brilliant at the moment), reduced seating and increased standing, withdrawal of through ticketing, and lack of tables to name a few.

As far as I can see, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. But in the UK, everything is about counting the beans.
 

edwin_m

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In principle a high-floor tram could have virtually the same interior as a train, and the either could provide a high frequency service. Many of the same cost savings could be realised by measures such as DOO while retaining heavy rail operation. Trains could even be fitted with improved braking to run on line of sight with minimal signalling.

The only cost that is intrinsically lower for a tram of the same size and passenger capacity is energy, as it will be lighter. However if 750V is used on a relatively long route this could be cancelled out by increased resistance losses, and it's probably a fairly small slice of the total operating cost.

So there are means of cutting railway operating costs significantly given a different approach, particularly if the Valley Lines can be made as far as possible operationally separate from the rest of the network.

However the capital cost for trams will be higher than for an equivalent number of trains. This is firstly because trams are more expensive per square metre of floorspace, generally being smaller and always having extra features needed for street running. Secondly it may be more difficult to conclude an attractive leasing deal, because there would be less chance of using the trams elsewhere at the end of the leasing term, particularly if they had non-standard features such as high floors which made it difficult to sell them on elsewhere. Thus somebody would probably have to buy the trams outright or sign a whole-life leasing deal. Tram-trains that can share tracks with residual freight trains would be more expensive still.

Thus, the whole-life cost of introducing and operating an enhanced service on the existing Valleys network would probably be a bit more for trams than for new trains. However the tram has the advantage of being able to generate more passengers by going off the network onto places where new tramway is feasible but new railway would be impossible. The obvious example is Cardiff Bay but there are other ideas as part of the Cardiff Metro project.

Examples such as the Tramlink Wimbledon line and Metrolink to Bury and Altrincham can be quoted to show how much light rail conversion increases passenger numbers. However in each of these, the service was extended to serve useful destinations that the train didn't serve before, the centres of Croydon and Manchester in these cases. So this is at least partly a feature of the extra journey opportunities trams provide, rather than the fact of trams rather than trains.
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Having signals will also allow superior capacity in degraded conditions (rain, etc)

This benefit would only apply in conditions of very poor visibility, which hardly every happen these days. If rain is heavy enough to slow down trams (which are very sure-footed and have sanders for poor adhesion) then it would probably affect trains in the same way.

In my view any such benefit is vastly outweighed by the disruption that happens to railways when the signalling fails. With simpler signalling and no track circuits, trams are much less likely to be affected by signalling problems.
 
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