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Validity Question: Paddington to Exeter Super Off Peak Single

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penaltyfines

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Looking at a Super Off Peak Single (SSS) fare London Paddington (PAD) > Exeter St Davids (EXD) or similar along the route, the validity shows OUTWARD allowing any train after morning peak or so. The RETURN section disallows evening peak, but if I bought this as a single, surely only the outward restriction would apply being my outward journey, and therefore be allowed to travel during evening peak despite the boards displaying Super Off-Peaks aren't valid?

Thanks
 
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wintonian

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Note A of restriction YU states:

NRE said:
Valid on services departing London Paddington or London Waterloo between 1010 and 1501, or after 1900 (departing Reading, heading west (i.e. services passing through Didcot Parkway, Oxford or Newbury ONLY) between 1030 and 1530, or after 1900).

So as you are departing from Paddington on you outward trip both the morning and evening restrictions apply, indeed note A appears to only apply to the outward part.

Restrictions
 

penaltyfines

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You missed this bit:

OUTWARD TRAVEL:

Available on all trains
departing at or later than:

FROM:

Swansea 0845
(also valid between 0200 and
0430)
Neath 0855
(also valid between 0200 and
0430)
Port Talbot Parkway 0905
(also valid between 0200 and
0445)
Bridgend 0915
(also valid between 0200 and
0500)
Cardiff Central 0940
(also valid between 0200 and
0530)
Newport 1000
(also valid between 0200 and
0545)
Bristol Parkway 1015
(also valid between 0200 and
0530)
Avoncliff 0940
Bradford on Avon 0935
Freshford 0940
Exeter St Thomas 0850
Dawlish 0840
Frome ________________0955
Trowbridge 0930
Bridgwater____________0840
Highbridge____________0845
Weston-Super-Mare 0920
Weston Milton_________0905
Worle_________________0910
Yatton 0925
Nailsea & Blackwell 0930
Bristol Temple Meads 0945
(also valid between 0200 and
0510)
Bath Spa 1000
Chippenham 1010
Cheltenham Spa 0930*
Gloucester 0930*
Stonehouse 0955
Stroud 1000
Kemble 1015
Swindon 1030
(also valid between 0200 and
0545)
Castle Cary 0945
(also valid via Bath Spa)
Exeter St Davids 0910
Pewsey 0930
Taunton 0940
Tiverton Parkway 0925
Oxford 0930
Westbury 1003
(also valid via Bath Spa)

* When travelling via Bristol
Parkway on tickets routed 'Any
Permitted', the restriction
time shown above for Bristol
Parkway also applies.

RETURN TRAVEL:
See note A below:

I don't see why the 'return travel' restrictions would reply to a single ticket, or the outward portion of a return?
 

bb21

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You missed this bit:



I don't see why the 'return travel' restrictions would reply to a single ticket, or the outward portion of a return?

I was wondering about the same thing so thought I'd give it a good look when I finished reading all the other threads.

YU is the code related to a PAD - EXD SSS/SSR, of which PAD - EXD is the outbound.
XC is the code related to an EXD - PAD SSS/SSR, of which outbound is the other way round.

Maybe someone messed up the YU text?
 

yorkie

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Some sort of copy/paste error, I suspect.

However penaltyfines, please can you make the title more descriptive and also name the stations and ticket type in future please? I have edited your post to make it readable. 3-letter codes are acceptable (providing they are correct, which yours were) but please name the stations in the first instance. Yes, I know what an SSS is and where EXD and PAD are as I have many of these codes memorised, but occasional travellers or people who don't go to that part of the country may not!! Thanks.
 

wintonian

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You missed this bit:



I don't see why the 'return travel' restrictions would reply to a single ticket, or the outward portion of a return?

No I didn't I linked to it. :)

It seems clear to me that return restrictions can't apply to single tickets as there is no return and there is no contract in existence for a ‘return’ trip.

Edit: oh I think your going the wrong way?
 

penaltyfines

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Some sort of copy/paste error, I suspect.

However penaltyfines, please can you make the title more descriptive and also name the stations and ticket type in future please? I have edited your post to make it readable. 3-letter codes are acceptable (providing they are correct, which yours were) but please name the stations in the first instance. Yes, I know what an SSS is and where EXD and PAD are as I have many of these codes memorised, but occasional travellers or people who don't go to that part of the country may not!! Thanks.

Apologies - I normally would have done but was on a train at the time typing on my phone :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was wondering about the same thing so thought I'd give it a good look when I finished reading all the other threads.

YU is the code related to a PAD - EXD SSS/SSR, of which PAD - EXD is the outbound.
XC is the code related to an EXD - PAD SSS/SSR, of which outbound is the other way round.

Maybe someone messed up the YU text?

That's what I thought, it looks like they've got the directions the wrong way around.

But in either case, on a multi-day return (SSR/SVR/SOR etc), why have morning restrictions on the outward, and evening on the return, surely it's more rational to have the restrictions on both regardless of the direction?
 

penaltyfines

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No I didn't I linked to it. :)

It seems clear to me that return restrictions can't apply to single tickets as there is no return and there is no contract in existence for a ‘return’ trip.

So does that mean I could have travelled during evening peak? :)
 

DaveNewcastle

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(Its no longer entirely clear what is being asked now, so please disregard this advice if it is not the appropriate response).

If there is a contradiction between what is written and what (by assumption) is intended in the Restrictions, then it is not surprising that officers/staff will enforce what was intended.
However, the Contract is governed by what is written.

In such cases, it is unlikely to be productive to dispute the matter with staff who are understandably mistaken, but to proceed with what is permitted by the written Restrictions and to willingly accept an UPFN for the 'alledged' discrepancy. I and others on here would assist with the subsequent negotiation seeking the cancellation of the UPFN.
 

LexyBoy

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Is it necessary to have evening restrictions into London?

I don't think FGW would be allowed to introduce evening peak restrictions into London, as the limits of off-peak/peak restrictions were laid down at the time of privatisation. I'm sure if they could, they would!

Evening trains into London are certainly busier than morning trains out (though maybe they wouldn't be at Anytime prices!).
 

penaltyfines

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(Its no longer entirely clear what is being asked now, so please disregard this advice if it is not the appropriate response).

If there is a contradiction between what is written and what (by assumption) is intended in the Restrictions, then it is not surprising that officers/staff will enforce what was intended.
However, the Contract is governed by what is written.

In such cases, it is unlikely to be productive to dispute the matter with staff who are understandably mistaken, but to proceed with what is permitted by the written Restrictions and to willingly accept an UPFN for the 'alledged' discrepancy. I and others on here would assist with the subsequent negotiation seeking the cancellation of the UPFN.

Yep I'm asking if I could travel PAD-EXD during the evening 'peak' with that ticket.

Does the NFM count as part of the contract in terms of looking up restrictions, or is there another source I should be referring to in terms of being contractually enforceable?

As far as I can see if that restriction is part of the contract, FGW would have a pretty hard time stopping me from travelling in the evening as all the outward restriction says is after the morning peak.
 

asylumxl

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If you go to Plat 3 i think it is at Paddington, there is a poster with a grid showing what trians can or can't be taken on what ticket. I've found it quite useful in the past :).
 

penaltyfines

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If you go to Plat 3 i think it is at Paddington, there is a poster with a grid showing what trians can or can't be taken on what ticket. I've found it quite useful in the past :).

True but I don't think that forms part of the contract when I buy a ticket that has restrictions, it's the restriction code here which appears to permit travel in the evening peak (where the posters etc state to the contrary).
 

DaveNewcastle

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Does the NFM count as part of the contract in terms of looking up restrictions, or is there another source I should be referring to in terms of being contractually enforceable?
If it is made available or accessible or if it is at least possible for both parties to refer to the restrictions, then it may be considered as a source of binding and applicable conditions. Yes.
But I am not persuaded that the Manual IS available, accessible or possible to refer to.

I have not attempted to find another source of the resrictions - perhaps they are available while selecting tickets from on-line booking engines? (and perhaps 'the error' is perpetrated there too?).

As far as I can see if that restriction is part of the contract, FGW would have a pretty hard time stopping me from travelling in the evening as all the outward restriction says is after the morning peak.
As I said above, if it is going to be apparent what was intended by the poorly written restriction, then I would expect officers/staff to apply it - as intended. And you would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. You should be ready to accept an UPFN.

The appropriate time to dispute would be either when buying the ticket or when challenging the payment of a UPFN after travel. Depending on factors on the day, you may find that the staff enforcing 'the error' when you travel do have the time, interest and inclination to read a print-out from the Manual and agree with you. I would call that good fortune.
 

penaltyfines

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If it is made available or accessible or if it is at least possible for both parties to refer to the restrictions, then it may be considered as a source of binding and applicable conditions. Yes.
But I am not persuaded that the Manual IS available, accessible or possible to refer to.

I have not attempted to find another source of the resrictions - perhaps they are available while selecting tickets from on-line booking engines? (and perhaps 'the error' is perpetrated there too?).

As I said above, if it is going to be apparent what was intended by the poorly written restriction, then I would expect officers/staff to apply it - as intended. And you would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. You should be ready to accept an UPFN.

The appropriate time to dispute would be either when buying the ticket or when challenging the payment of a UPFN after travel. Depending on factors on the day, you may find that the staff enforcing 'the error' when you travel do have the time, interest and inclination to read a print-out from the Manual and agree with you. I would call that good fortune.

I appreciate what you're saying. I want to corroborate my findings with another source that's more publicly accessible, i.e. on the National Rail website, or as a print-out from the ticket office when buying the ticket, or by validating that the NFM program's data is considered a source of information when looking up restrictions as per the CoC.

When I know my position contractually, I can then decide that if the intention of the restriction is applied (as you say), I can be nice and accept a UPFN and contest it, or take other action etc.

But before doing so I need to be sure of the legality of travelling on that ticket :)
 

John @ home

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Some of us may remember previous debates about validity out of Paddington in the evening peak, where there were train restrictions rather than ticket restrictions which applied to some former InterCity services. I thought this has ended, but perhaps not completely. I will research further when I have time - probably tomorrow. I will try to provide links to earlier discussions on this forum.
 

yorkie

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But before doing so I need to be sure of the legality of travelling on that ticket :)
Can I also suggest sending an email to National Rail Enquiries, if their response is favourable, you could bring their response along with you.
 

RJ

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This one seems pretty straightforward to me - Super Off Peak for this flow not valid from Paddington between 1501 and 1900. It doesn't matter what anyone's interpretation is of it, it's there in black and white in the restriction text. Good luck to anybody trying to pick holes that don't exist.
 

sheff1

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I agree with RJ. SSS from PAD-EXD has restriction code YU, see http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SSS_YU.pdf, which clearly refers all Outbound validity to note A, and note A says valid 1010-1501 inclusive and after 1900. I don't see anything confusing.

Yes, but as the table only lists 'country' stations as 'From' stations and the restrictions listed in Note A are Westbound ones, they are not relevant to the Outward journey from one of these stations.

It seems to me that the 'From' column heading should actually state 'To' ... but is doesn't and hence the confusion.
 

wintonian

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Ahh I get now - just read it again.

Yes it doesn’t make any sense and I agree that clarification is needed as their has obviously been some kind of copy & paste type error.

I think the outward and return columns are the wrong way round but it certainly isn’t clear.
 

RJ

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Yes, but as the table only lists 'country' stations as 'From' stations and the restrictions listed in Note A are Westbound ones, they are not relevant to the Outward journey from one of these stations.

It seems to me that the 'From' column heading should actually state 'To' ... but is doesn't and hence the confusion.

So you're travelling from the stations listed in the table, you can't travel on a train that leaves Paddington or Waterloo before 10:10, or between 15:01 and 19:00 with a Super Off Peak ticket. Confusing how...?
 

wintonian

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For example when traveling from bath (or any station in the from column) the restriction is contained in note A which refers to departing Paddington (or reading and heading west).

So the restriction applies to journeys from bath departing Paddington between 10:10 and 15:01.

In other words you can't travel from Bath and get on a train from Paddington unless you change trains at Reading for example.

I think. :)
 

penaltyfines

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This one seems pretty straightforward to me - Super Off Peak for this flow not valid from Paddington between 1501 and 1900. It doesn't matter what anyone's interpretation is of it, it's there in black and white in the restriction text. Good luck to anybody trying to pick holes that don't exist.

It's pretty straightforward to me if you actually read the thread before replying :).

See this quote from NFM:

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=647344&postcount=3

What we're discussing is the NFM application stating that outward travel has no restrictions for the evening peak....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Available as listed below MONDAYS-FRIDAYS (By any train on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holiday Mondays)

Does that mean bank holiday fridays are still peak? :)
 
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sheff1

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So you're travelling from the stations listed in the table, you can't travel on a train that leaves Paddington or Waterloo before 10:10, or between 15:01 and 19:00 with a Super Off Peak ticket. Confusing how...?

But the From column in the table in YU only lists 'country' stations. Paddington is not listed as a 'from' station in the table.
 
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