Validity of ticket Hoylake - Stevenage

[joke2711]

Hi

In need of some clarification;

I travelled on business from Hoylake to Stevenage last Thursday afternoon, leaving Liverpool on the 1547 service. I had an off-peak return ticket with the validity code of 2C. As I was travelling down I had the opportunity to visit an additional client on the Friday, which would delay my return from Stevenage to early afternoon.

I looked at the restrictions for 2C which are as follows

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
•London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45;
•London Kings Cross after 02:59 and before 09:06 or after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays);
•London Liverpool Street before 09:31 or after 16:28 and before 18:35;
•London Marylebone after 06:29 and before 09:00 or after 16:00 and before 19:00;
•London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:10 and after 16:40 and before 18:31;

•London St Pancras International before 10:26 or after 15:15 and before 18:59;
•London Waterloo before 08:15;
•Kensington Olympia before 09:15 or after 15:14 and before 18:12;
•Bedford after 04:29 and before 09:01;
•Luton or Luton Airport Parkway before 09:01 or after 16:29 and before 18:59;
•Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 09:51;
•Reading after 04:29 and before 08:35 and after 17:10 until 19:01;

•Stevenage after 02:59 and before 09:19 or after 15:06 and before 19:01 (18:35 on Fridays);
•Stratford after 17:04 and before 18:55;
•Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 09:38 or after 15:00 and before 18:38

From this I read I could leave Stevenage at 3:00pm and connect with either the 1607 or 1707 to Liverpool.

The Train Manager came around as I was checking and she was adamant (to the point on bluntness) that my ticket was only valid on any direct train up to the 14:07 and then any after the 1907. I asked her if she could check as my origin station was Stevenage to which she replied "Your ticket it not valid. would you like me to write this down on your ticket?"

I politely declined and aborted a second appointment.

However, I still think that I should have been allowed to travel? Can anyone produce definitive clarification?

Many thanks
JK

 

[roversfan2001]

"Not valid on trains timed to depart:
•London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45"

The fact that 16:07 (and 17:07) is well within that afternoon restriction means you were in the wrong.

 

[Romilly]

I assume that you were travelling Stevenage-London-Liverpool.

If that's the case, I agree that you could have caught the 1506 from Stevenage to Kings X. But as roversfan says, you would then have needed to wait at Euston for the first train after 1844. This is because the wording of the particular restriction is not about when you start your journey, but is about each train that use as part of your journey.

Or you could have caught the 1455 from Stevenage to Leeds, changing at Leeds onto the 1709 Transpennine train to Liverpool Lime Street arriving 1859.

 

[gray1404]

I think that the TM was right in what they were telling you, however their method of delivery was not the best. Perhaps some refresher customer service and communication skills will help her, however I shall let you decide if you want to make Virgin aware of this.

From what you have written it would appear that you did not need to buy an additional ticket. If you are on such a ticket again and need to travel at a time whereby you would end up with a long wait at Euston for the 19:07 then travelling via Leeds may end up being quicker. (This is provided you are not departing Stevenage heading North at a time that is not allowed.)

 

[Hadders]

The Stevenage restriction is for travelling on northbound departures (as you could travel from Stevenage to Liverpool via Peterborough).

If travelling via Euston then under the Network Area Rule you may take any train between Stevenage and Kings Cross, with the time restrictions applying from Euston (or whichever London Terminal you depart from)

Booking engines often interpret Stevenage restrictions incorrectly. I had quite an argument with East Coast (as was) a few years ago about this. They admitted there was a problem but never did anything about it. I wonder how many passengers are erroneously sold Anytime tickets when an Off Peak one would suffice due to booking engines is-interpreting timing restrictions.

 

[yorkie]

From this I read I could leave Stevenage at 3:00pm and connect with either the 1607 or 1707 to Liverpool.

You can actually leave Stevenage at any time if travelling via London, as per the Network Area rule (which is within the ticket restriction text, but you didn't quote).

The restrictions you quote out of Euston are those that apply out of Euston.

The Train Manager came around as I was checking and she was adamant (to the point on bluntness) that my ticket was only valid on any direct train up to the 14:07 and then any after the 1907. I asked her if she could check as my origin station was Stevenage to which she replied "Your ticket it not valid. would you like me to write this down on your ticket?"

I politely declined and aborted a second appointment.

However, I still think that I should have been allowed to travel? Can anyone produce definitive clarification?

It's not entirely clear to me where this interaction took place, but it sounds like you were checked on the outward journey and you therefore never attempted to make the return journey at the invalid time, and therefore were not charged. Is that right?

The correct action, if you had travelled, is to charge you the cheapest out of:
- an excess (of the entire return ticket) up to the lowest priced return fare that would have allowed travel; or
- the lowest priced single ticket that would have allowed travel.

In this case, the excess would be more than the cost of a new ticket.

 

[joke2711]

You can actually leave Stevenage at any time if travelling via London, as per the Network Area rule (which is within the ticket restriction text, but you didn't quote).

The restrictions you quote out of Euston are those that apply out of Euston.
It's not entirely clear to me where this interaction took place, but it sounds like you were checked on the outward journey and you therefore never attempted to make the return journey at the invalid time, and therefore were not charged. Is that right?

The correct action, if you had travelled, is to charge you the cheapest out of:
- an excess (of the entire return ticket) up to the lowest priced return fare that would have allowed travel; or
- the lowest priced single ticket that would have allowed travel.

In this case, the excess would be more than the cost of a new ticket.

Thanks for all the replies ... to clarify the conversation took place as I travelled from Liverpool with the Train Manager when she checked tickets. It would have been useful be told that I could travel an alternative route! As it was I left Stevenage at around Midday and came back on the 1307 to Liverpool from Euston. I will now have to arrange another visit.

So in clarification, restriction 2C can be applied more than once on your journey ... complicated!

JK

 

[Romilly]

You can actually leave Stevenage at any time if travelling via London, as per the Network Area rule (which is within the ticket restriction text, but you didn't quote).

The trouble is that if one looks up the restriction on National Rail Enquiries there is no link to the rule, which apppears on brfares.com in the following terms:

NETWORK AREA:
The 'Network area' is defined
as the area in which the
Network railcard is valid. For
details see Network Railcard
map.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting outside the Network
Area for travel via London use
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise, they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station, and return.

So looking on NRE makes one think that restriction 2C gets to be applied multiple times, whereas the Network Area Rule says that on the OP's journey you only have to apply the restriction on the Hoylake-London and London-Hoylake legs (possibly multiple times, given the wording of 2C, if changing trains on either of those legs), and that the restriction does not apply to the London-Stevenage and Stevenage-London legs. As mentioned in #4, trying to rely on the Network Area Rule may not be straightforward in practice.

 

[Hadders]

Before someone jumps in saying that BR Fares isn't an official source and that the Network Area Rule isn't in the public domain, Avantix Traveller gives the full restriction text including the Network Area Rule.

Avantix Traveller is an official product in the public domain that can be downloaded from the Rail Delivery Group website.