Validity of Cheap Day return during peaks

[PaulLothian]

My daughter travels regularly from Brunstane to Linlithgow on a Cheap Day Return, usually changing at Waverley, and leaving in the late afternoon.

Half the gate staff maintain she cannot use the ticket during the peak, as she is starting the journey from Edinburgh. The other half, including the more senior staff she ends up being referred to, state it is valid as she is not starting her journey, but simply changing.

Could one of our gurus advise which section of the regulations my daughter should quote?

Incidentally, while researching a trip from West Lothian to the Glasgow SECC, I was told I would be unable to use the return of a CDR until after the peak if travelling from Queen Street High Level to Linlithow, but if travelling instead to/from Bathgate, could pass through Low Level without problems unless I got off the train. Not a problem in that I can wait at Partick for the Edinburgh train, but why could I not take the first one that arrives and wait at Queen Street (not even leaving the platform)?

Thanks in advance

Paul

 

[Chester025]

Could she not change at Haymarket to avoid the hassle at Waverley?

 

[Failed Unit]

Check with an online is your quickest answer, typically all Scotrail priced cheap day returns are banned in the peak unless they are former SPT priced ones.

I strongly suspect this one is restricted as otherwise everyone would use it to avoid the restrictions claiming the break of journey at Edinburgh.

 

[island]

We had this come up yesterday

The off-peak day return from Brunstane to Linlithgow (restriction H1) says passengers may not travel before 0915, nor may they join at Glasgow Cen/Qst, Edinburgh Waverley or Haymarket any service timed to depart between 1642 and 1809, nor the 1815 GLQ-EDB or EDB-GLQ services, except the 1756 to Glasgow via Shotts.

Changing onto a train to me counts as "joining a service", therefore I think they are right not to permit her to travel.

As regards the West Lothian/SECC question, I think you may have been misinformed — travel should not be permitted from high or low level at the barred times, although I suspect if you don't encounter any barriers you are not likely to be hassled.

Chester025: Haymarket is similarly restricted.

 

[me123]

I concur with island on this one. It's a bit of a confusing issue, but it clearly states that the Off Peak Day Return is not valid on that train (as intimated by all the posters at Waverley). It doesn't mention anything about journeys starting outwith Edinburgh, but then again it doesn't mention journeys at all. All it says is that you may not board any train.

To add to the evidence, ticketing engines (eg on the East Coast website) suggest it's not valid. Unless someone (by which I probably mean Yorkie) knows otherwise, I'd take it that the ticket is not valid.

Unfortunately, you cannot go from Brunstane-Linlithgow direct any more, nor can you change at Edinburgh Park. Back in the days when Newcraighall services went to and from Bathgate/Dunblane, this would have been allowed.

 

[yorkie]

I also concur with Island. However it is certainly confusing. It is not "normal" for a restriction to state you cannot "join" certain services at certain stations. It is far more common for a restriction to apply either at the start time or to a specific service throughout.

However restrictions can be, and are, worded in many different ways, so nothing really surprises me and you do have to read the restrictions carefully to determine what they actually mean.

 

[wintonian]

The restrictions for this journey are:

Restriction : H1
OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0915.
Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at
Glasgow Queen St or Central,
Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays
-Fridays any service departing
between 1642 and 1809 nor the
1815 Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen
Street & the 1815 Glasgow
Queen Street-Edinburgh
services (except: Passengers
may join the 1756 to Glasgow
via Shotts)

RETURN TRAVEL
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0915.
Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at
Glasgow Queen St or Central,
Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays
-Fridays any service departing
between 1642 and 1809 nor the
1815 Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen
Street & the 1815 Glasgow
Queen Street - Edinburgh
services (except: Passengers
may join the 1756 to Glasgow
via Shotts)

So at Waverly or Haymarket you are not supposed to join a service departing during the times stated above.

My interpretation is that by changing trains you will be joining another train and the wording is "may not join" as opposed to passengers may not start their journeys for example.

 

[Failed Unit]

But sure you are opening yourself up to fraud if you dont interpret like that. Newcraighall trains use the through platforms, most others use the terminal. You will then get a mob of people buying a cdr to brunston, claim they are changing and leave the station as you will need to pass a barrier anyway.

 

[PaulLothian]

Thanks, everyone - will pass on the collective wisdom re journeys where there is a change of train.

The train conductor on my peak-time through service from Partick to Bathgate was quite clear that my tickets were valid, despite the fact that I had been offered split tickets (splitting at Queen Street). This was after the station ticket vendor noticed that her system was showing an Off Peak Day Return fare of £17 from Bathgate to Exhibition Centre, which she felt was a unreasonable anomaly, the view being echoed by train staff, who also checked it. That fare was £6.30 more than the equivalent fare to Partick, one stop west! Splitting brought it down to £11.70, on a par with other fares.

How does one best raise this with First ScotRail?

 

[island]

Splitting is going to be a nightmare. If you split at Glasgow Cen/Qst does that mean you've joined the train at Glasgow?

 

[John @ home]

she felt was a unreasonable anomaly

It is a mistake rather than an anomaly. This can be shown by comparing the adult walk-on fares from Bathgate to Exhibition Centre Glasgow and adjacent stations.

Bathgate - Anderston or Exhibition Centre Glasgow route Any Permitted
SDS 14.60, CDR 17.00 (H1), SDR 25.60.

Bathgate - Partick route Any Permitted
SDS 8.20, CDR 10.70 (H1), SDR 12.90.

Bathgate - Glasgow Central route Any Permitted
SDS 7.90, CDR 10.30 (H1), SDR 12.50.

Bathgate - Argyle Street route Any Permitted
SDS 8.00, CDR 10.50 (H1), SDR 12.60.

SDS = Anytime Day Single
CDR = Off-Peak Day Return
SDR = Anytime Day Return.

From 18 January 2011, the only Permitted Route wholly by rail for all these journeys has been via Airdrie and Charing Cross (Glasgow). It is an error that the fares to Anderston and Exhibition Centre Glasgow are still set at the level appropriate to the previous Permitted Route via Edinburgh Park.

How does one best raise this with First ScotRail?

The registered office is:
First ScotRail Limited
395 King Street,
Aberdeen AB24 5RP

Their Customer Relations Department is:
ScotRail Customer Relations
PO Box 7030
Fort William PH33 6WX

You could email scotrail.enquiries@firstgroup.com or scotrailcustomer.relations@firstgroup.com, or use the feedback form on their web site.

Start with For the attention of the Pricing Manager.

 

[PaulLothian]

Thanks for the contact details and other info. Will advise how I get on!