valid routing with no valid trains?

[tony_mac]

Is a London Midland only ticket from London to Birmingham valid to Nuneaton?
It certainly looks like it would be a permitted route, so I wouldn't worry if the ticket wasn't London Midland only - but there are no direct London Midland trains from Nuneaton to Birmingham (map BP shows a direct link only).

I can't claim that I am travelling onto Birmingham with my ticket, as it wouldn't be valid on any services, so does the route 'London Midland Only' make it an invalid routing?

 

[yorkie]

I don't see how, as you can terminate short of your destination!

 

[OwlMan]

As there is no route shown between Euston & New Street via Nuneaton except via Coleshill Parkway (in other words the route from Nuneaton via Coventry is not valid) a journey via Nuneaton is not valid using a London Midland only ticket as there are no valid London Midland Trains from Nuneaton - Birmingham. Why do you want to use a Birmingham ticket to Nuneaton anyway - a LM return to Nuneaton is the same price?

There are no barriers at Nuneaton so you would probably get away with it (if a gripper comes round between Rugby & Nuneatonjust say you must have got on the wrong train and get off at Nuneaton.


Peter

 

[clagmonster]

The tickets to Nuneaton and Birmingham are the same price (for all the ticket types I have compared), so if you are travelling from Euston-Nuneaton there would be no point in buying a Birmingham ticket. If you want to travel Euston-Birmingham via Nuneaton, you could buy a London Midland only ticket to Nuneaton, for a cheap day return from Nuneaton to Birmingham.

 

[tony_mac]

I've already got the ticket - I travelled from Birmingham to London and haven't used the return portion yet.

 

[yorkie]

As there is no route shown between Euston & New Street via Nuneaton except via Coleshill Parkway (in other words the route from Nuneaton via Coventry is not valid) a journey via Nuneaton is not valid using a London Midland only ticket as there are no valid London Midland Trains from Nuneaton - Birmingham.

Is this actually a rule though or something you've interpreted?

 

[First class]

I reckon it's valid.

Simply because the routing guide would permit you to travel via Nuneaton. Whether there are any further LM services is irrelevant. Your ticket is valid. You would be entitled as a fare paying passenger to use your ticket to Nuneaton and pay for a ANY PERMITTED fare from Nuneaton-Birmingham, (assuming you did travel onwards).

 

[OwlMan]

Is this actually a rule though or something you've interpreted?

It is how I interpretated.


1) The ticket is valid from London - Birmingham on LM trains only.
2) Therefore it is only valid on routes for which a LM service is available.
3) London to Birmingham via Nuneaton is not a valid route for LM only tickets -as LM does not run a service from Nuneaton - Birmingham via Coleshill Parkway which is the only route allowed by the routeing guide.
4) As it is not a valid route the customer can not stop short of his destination as the ticket is not valid via that route

I may be wrong but that is my logical approach. As we probably agree the Routeing Guide and its rules are open to many different interpretations and which takes priority? - the routeing guide or the route allowed byticket when TOC specific.

As I have already said though I do not see any problem with the ticket being used as you can travel from Nuneaton to Birmingham via Bedworth & Coventry by LM (although not in the routeing guide) and I am sure taht no gripper would realise that the ticket was invalid (if you happen to be gripped between Rugby & Nuneaton).


Peter

 

[glynn80]

As I have already said though I do not see any problem with the ticket being used as you can travel from Nuneaton to Birmingham via Bedworth & Coventry by LM (although not in the routeing guide) and I am sure taht no gripper would realise that the ticket was invalid (if you happen to be gripped between Rugby & Nuneaton).

But the route via Bedworth & Coventry is in the routeing guide.

London Gp To Birmingham Gp has an option to use maps BP + TV.

Map TV allows you travel up the Trent Valley between London to Nuneaton (also via Northampton if you wish).

Map BP then allows travel between Nuneaton and Birmingham but crucially there is no routeing point between Nuneaton and Birmingham so you are allowed to take any route between Nuneaton and Birmingham which does not double back through the same station twice and as long as you travelled up the Trent Valley to Nuneaton, you would not be doubling back by going via Bedworth and Coventry to get to Birmingham.

So to answer the OPs original question, yes you can travel via Nuneaton or terminate your journey at Nuneaton. The Routeing Guide allows you to travel to Birmingham wholly on London Midland services so there is now no question there. You can also break your journey on both portions of your ticket as London Midland haven't placed any validity code restrictions regarding BoJ, on this flow.

 

[OwlMan]

But the route via Bedworth & Coventry is in the routeing guide.

London Gp To Birmingham Gp has an option to use maps BP + TV.

Map TV allows you travel up the Trent Valley between London to Nuneaton (also via Northampton if you wish).

Map BP then allows travel between Nuneaton and Birmingham but crucially there is no routeing point between Nuneaton and Birmingham so you are allowed to take any route between Nuneaton and Birmingham which does not double back through the same station twice and as long as you travelled up the Trent Valley to Nuneaton, you would not be doubling back by going via Bedworth and Coventry to get to Birmingham.

So to answer the OPs original question, yes you can travel via Nuneaton or terminate your journey at Nuneaton. The Routeing Guide allows you to travel to Birmingham wholly on London Midland services so there is now no question there. You can also break your journey on both portions of your ticket as London Midland haven't placed any validity code restrictions regarding BoJ, on this flow.

But it does not say you can go through Coventry routeing point - therefore I suggest that via Coventry is not allowed - only the direct route between Nuneaton & Birmingham routeing points

Peter

 

[glynn80]

But it does not say you can go through Coventry routeing point - therefore I suggest that via Coventry is not allowed - only the direct route between Nuneaton & Birmingham routeing points

Peter

I'm sorry, which section of the routeing guide states this? Or is this just something you have come up with?

Section A of the routeing guide is the section entitled "How to use the routeing guide" and it states the following:

Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey).

Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g) ER+PN+BD, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final routeing point is reached.

Now travelling between the Nuneaton and Birmingham routeing points via Bedworth and Coventry does not double back between the same station twice at any point and thus is a valid route. The routeing guide states "any route within that map without doubling back".

If the routeing guide is written badly, that is not the passenger's problem and until altered, the passenger can only go by the rules that are within the routeing guide.

 

[OwlMan]

I'm sorry, which section of the routeing guide states this? Or is this just something you have come up with?
Now travelling between the Nuneaton and Birmingham routeing points via Bedworth and Coventry does not double back between the same station twice at any point and thus is a valid route. The routeing guide states "any route within that map without doubling back".

If the routeing guide is written badly, that is not the passenger's problem and until altered, the passenger can only go by the rules that are within the routeing guide.

The route via Coventry is NOT shown on map BP the only route from Birmingham to Nuneaton is shown as not passing through any routeing points and therefore can not go through Coventry (you can not go via Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley or Stafford either)

So you are saying then that on the same BP map as there is no routeing point between Nuneaton and Leicester I can go via Tamworth & Derby between these points? or taking it further via Tamworth, Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster & Peterborough?
If not where do you draw the line?
I believe that my interpretation is the only sensible one - that is that the route via Coventry is NOT shown on map BP and therefore you are unable to use it.

Peter

 

[glynn80]

The route via Coventry is NOT shown on map BP the only route from Birmingham to Nuneaton is shown as not passing through any routeing points and therefore can not go through Coventry (you can not go via Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley or Stafford either)

So you are saying then that on the same BP map as there is no routeing point between Nuneaton and Leicester I can go via Tamworth & Derby between these points? or taking it further via Tamworth, Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster & Peterborough?
If not where do you draw the line?
I believe that my interpretation is the only sensible one - that is that the route via Coventry is NOT shown on map BP and therefore you are unable to use it.

Peter

I am saying that there is no basis, which is written in the routeing guide, which backs up the assumption you claim.

There is however written evidence stating "any route within that map without doubling back" is a permitted route.

I am not saying that guards will or won't accept it or that the wording was intended to be interpreted this way, just that from my grasp of written English, the routeing guide permits travel via Bedworth and Coventry.

ATOC have a perfectly reasonable way to deal with situations like this and that is to include Water Orton on map BP, between Nuneaton and Birmingham, as a stub.



In this example Ormskirk is not a routeing point, but is shown on the map to denote that the only permitted routes between Liverpool and Preston, using map CP, are via Ormskirk. This then restricts passengers to that route and not routes via Southport or St Helens.

This stub showing Water Orton, is not in situ on map BP and thus the route via Bedworth and Coventry is a permitted one.

Something seeming ridiculous in routeing guide terms is not a basis for it not being valid. Previous example of routeing, that many would consider "invalid", but in fact according to the routeing guide were valid, include: London to Carlisle via Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow; and Newcastle to Carlisle via Manchester, Leeds, York and Darlington.

Assuming the "sensible interpretation" does not work when dealing with the routeing guide.

 

[tony_mac]

That interpretation does seem a little unlikely to me - as it would imply that an 'any permitted' ticket from London to Birmingham could go via Nuneaton, London, Exeter, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Derby (and many others)

It did occur to me, though, that having no valid trains for your entire route shouldn't mean that the ticket is invalid for the part of the route that does have valid trains.
If you had a day return from Bulwell to Birmingham, you could surely still return to Nottingham on the 22:10, even though you couldn't possibly finish your journey on that ticket.

If London Midland decide at any point in the next 30 days to run a single direct train (or replacement bus!) from Nuneaton to Birmingham, then the ticket would be valid - and I don't know that they won't (ok, that may be clutching at straws).

BTW, is it possible to get the ticket changed to a 'London-Nuneaton' ticket? I am happy to pay the difference in fare!

Also, if I were to get caught in-between Rugby and Nuneaton, would they be able to impose a penalty fare?

 

[OwlMan]

I am saying that there is no basis, which is written in the routeing guide, which backs up the assumption you claim.

There is however written evidence stating "any route within that map without doubling back" is a permitted route.

I am not saying that guards will or won't accept it or that the wording was intended to be interpreted this way, just that from my grasp of written English, the routeing guide permits travel via Bedworth and Coventry.

ATOC have a perfectly reasonable way to deal with situations like this and that is to include Water Orton on map BP, between Nuneaton and Birmingham, as a stub.



In this example Ormskirk is not a routeing point, but is shown on the map to denote that the only permitted routes between Liverpool and Preston, using map CP, are via Ormskirk. This then restricts passengers to that route and not routes via Southport or St Helens.

This stub showing Water Orton, is not in situ on map BP and thus the route via Bedworth and Coventry is a permitted one.

Something seeming ridiculous in routeing guide terms is not a basis for it not being valid. Previous example of routeing, that many would consider "invalid", but in fact according to the routeing guide were valid, include: London to Carlisle via Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow; and Newcastle to Carlisle via Manchester, Leeds, York and Darlington.

Assuming the "sensible interpretation" does not work when dealing with the routeing guide.

The difference is that I see a plain line as a link between two routeing points with no other routeing point in between; you see it as any route between the two stations whether or not there is a routeing point in between.

On all other maps all routeing points are shown on the routes (even 3 or 4 in a row on a single red line) so the logical inference is that if a routeing point is not shown you can not pass through it - Coventry is not shown on map BP therefore you can not travel via it.

In my example between Huyton and Wigan they show two routes,direct and via Earlestown - if your theory was correct they would only show one.

Peter

ps of course the real answer is that the routeing guide is full of similar conundrums and needs rewriting by someone who understands what they are doing (in other words not ATOC )

 

[glynn80]

On all other maps all routeing points are shown on the routes (even 3 or 4 in a row on a single red line) so the logical inference is that if a routeing point is not shown you can not pass through it - Coventry is not shown on map BP therefore you can not travel via it.

That is exactly my point, your only basis for this inference is logic. The routeing guide is not based on logic and passengers can only interpret what is written in the rules.

If I take logic and apply it to my argument, I am arguing that ATOC have not inserted a stub with Water Orton on the map, where in other places such as the Ormskirk example, they have sought to restrict validity to a single route.

Unfortunately the routeing guide lacks clarity when describing exactly how to read the maps. So I am taking what is written and applying it to the maps, if the result is illogical then so be it, on numerous occasions illogical results have resulted from the routeing guide, that doesn't make them any less valid.

 

[yorkie]

2) Therefore it is only valid on routes for which a LM service is available.

That's not defined anywhere though is it? It's only valid on LM services, there is a difference.

3) London to Birmingham via Nuneaton is not a valid route for LM only tickets -as LM does not run a service from Nuneaton - Birmingham via Coleshill Parkway which is the only route allowed by the routeing guide.

But this has been made up!

4) As it is not a valid route the customer can not stop short of his destination as the ticket is not valid via that route

This has also been made up. There is no rule preventing tickets being cut short unless they are advance. I see no exceptions for TOC specific tickets, are there any? If so, where?

I am sure taht no gripper would realise that the ticket was invalid (if you happen to be gripped between Rugby & Nuneaton).

Well I agree with that. They'd have to have knowledge of the timetable of other lines and then make rules up. Not unheard of for that to happen, but unlikely.

In my experience the ones who know the timetables of other lines well (a particular guard on XC springs to mind - even gives out platform numbers!) are very customer friendly so wouldn't refuse the ticket anyway.

 

[tony_mac]

it looks like London to Birmingham is permitted via Rugeley. London Midland do run from Rugeley to Birmingham, so there shouldn't be any problem after all!