Valid Routes between London Bridge and London Victoria

[Noggin The Nog]

Hi,

I'm looking to get a season ticket between London Bridge and London Victoria, and can't see what the valid routes are as they are part of the same group.

I've tried via the National Rail Journey planner and it comes up with a number of different routes for an anytime day single - would those routes all be valid for a season?

Thanks,

NTN

 

[sarahj]

Circle or District to Westminster. Jubilee line to London Bridge.
Oyster season, zones 1 and 2

For the next 3 years only a maniac would go any other way.

Unless, you are looking for other reasons?

 

[telstarbox]

The direct trains (via Peckham Rye or Forest Hill) are valid routes.

 

[Noggin The Nog]

Unless, you are looking for other reasons?

I just want to know what valid routes using that ticket would be. In case I want to travel to or via any of the intermediate stations.

The national rail journey planner suggests a number of different routes, and I'm presuming they are all valid, but I can't see how one could derive it from the ATOC Routeing Guide, because there isn't a map entry for London Group to London Group, if you see what I mean.

Thanks,

NTN

 

[greatkingrat]

There are no mapped routes for a journey within the London Terminals Group. So the only permitted routes are through trains, the shortest route and routes no more than 3 miles longer.

The shortest route is somewhat debatable, due to the current London Bridge works. LBG - Waterloo East - Waterloo - Clapham J - Victoria would normally be the shortest but is not possible for the next year, neither is LBG - Blackfriars - Denmark Hill - Victoria.

LBG - Peckham Rye - Victoria and LBG - Peckham Rye - Clapham J - Victoria should both be OK, along with LBG - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Victoria, plus the through train via Crystal Palace.

 

[185143]

Quick question, if you are using the direct trains rule and travelling via a much longer route, break of journey is still valid along that route isn't it? Assuming the ticket allows BoJ in the first place of course!

 

[Noggin The Nog]

Thanks, much appreciated.

Does the Journey Planner know these rules? Also, does the three miles longer apply to the shortest route, or the through train?

NTN

 

[island]

Quick question, if you are using the direct trains rule and travelling via a much longer route, break of journey is still valid along that route isn't it? Assuming the ticket allows BoJ in the first place of course!

Probably not.

Thanks, much appreciated.

Does the Journey Planner know these rules? Also, does the three miles longer apply to the shortest route, or the through train?

NTN

Only to the shortest route.

 

[maniacmartin]

The 3 mile rule wording from page one of the NRG in detail is worded:

(1) the shortest route served by a regular passenger service or (2) a route no more then 3 miles longer or [...]

So it hinges on what a 'regular passenger service' is. Previous correspondence with ATOC suggest that this is a route which is served by trains that are timetabled to run at least once a week. So, look in the Network Rail timetables (zipped), which were last updated 22/12/2014.
These are the tables you need:
Waterloo East: 199, 200, 203, 204, 206, 207, 212
Blackfriars: 52, 173, 175, 179, 182, 186, 195, 196, 199, 212

Find the latter pages which show services for mid-January to mid-May. There will be no services shown that call at both London Bridge and Waterloo East, or at both London Bridge and Blackfriars, therefore my interpretation is that they cannot form part of the shortest route served by a regular passenger service. Things may change come May. Others' interpretations may vary

Now, using the mileages shown in the first column from each table in same timetables, find the shortest route that services take. The shortest is 8.75 miles:
London Bridge - South Bermondsey - Peckham Rye - Denmark Hill - Victoria

Thus, you can take route no longer than 11.75 miles. This adds in:
London Bridge - South Bermondsey - Peckham Rye - Denmark Hill Clapham High St - Wandsworth Road - Clapham Junction - Battersea Park.
London Bridge - South Bermondsey - Peckham Rye - East Dulwich - North Dulwich - Tulse Hill - Brixton - Victoria

Furthermore, you can take any direct train. There is an argument that for a route thats only valid by virtue of the direct train rule, its only valid if the actual train you board is a service between London Bridge and London Victoria. See this thread for a discussion on that.


This ticket would only be useful for journeys to and from intermediate stations. The savings over the obvious ticket are tiny, and I would say that it would not be worth the hassle you will get using it in this way. The routes during the long-running engineering works are a bit of a grey area, and it would be obvious you were trying to exploit a loophole.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Forgot to add: There is an additional complication. Some season tickets that are usually valid between London Bridge and Waterloo East are valid on the Jubilee line during the Thameslink works, which could affect the shortest route (another grey area). According to this page, for Southern and Thameslink passengers, this only applies to passengers with London Terminals tickets. I believe that this is referring to tickets with an origin or destination of 'LONDON TERMINALS', but an argument could easily be made that it would apply to a ticket between two London Terminals.

 

[RJ]

Quick question, if you are using the direct trains rule and travelling via a much longer route, break of journey is still valid along that route isn't it? Assuming the ticket allows BoJ in the first place of course!

I'd say no - in my opinion, it's not a permitted route in that sense. Tickets are valid on direct (defined as a journey which can be made without change of trains) services by default, but that service isn't necessarily travelling on a permitted route. Mapped routes and the shortest route (+3 miles) are the permitted routes. There are instances where somebody has added a mapped route to reflect a circuitous, but direct service between two stations. Then, it becomes unequivocally valid.

The concept is programmed into the NRE journey planner. The first example that springs into mind is a loop service - try Waterloo to Earlsfield via Strawberry Hill. On through services, it says that one ticket is required. Where a change at Twickenham is suggested, it says two tickets are required, despite the journey following an identical route to the through services.

The first page of the NRG does convey this concept, albeit not very articulately at all. Although it is said that direct trains are always travelling on a permitted route, it is not my belief that is supposed to be interpreted in the way you have suggested.

 

[CNash]

Aren't loop services usually restricted by negative easements, though? For example, you're not permitted to travel "the wrong way" around the Dartford lines to get to London (no taking the train from Sidcup via Woolwich Arsenal to Cannon Street!), to prevent atypical routes from potentially granting extra ticket validity.

 

[PermitToTravel]

But the presence of trains going that way doesn't grant "extra" validity, and even better, negative easements can't prevent you from taking through trains! You are allowed to take the train from Sidcup via Woolwich Arsenal to Cannon Street, as long as you don't expect to start at Woolwich Arsenal on a Sidcup ticket

 

[MikeWh]

Re the lack of trains between London Bridge and Waterloo East:

What effect do the several scheduled late evening services which run CHX-WAE-CST-LBG have on the shortest route with regular services? Granted it's only one way, but in and out of Cannon Street is only going to add about half a mile!

 

[maniacmartin]

As you might have guessed, I didn't actually check the timetables as I assumed there would be no services, but it seems I was wrong. I'm not sure what the rule is if there is a service that runs in one direction only. Can someone else remember?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I just want to know what valid routes using that ticket would be. In case I want to travel to or via any of the intermediate stations.

The national rail journey planner suggests a number of different routes, and I'm presuming they are all valid, but I can't see how one could derive it from the ATOC Routeing Guide, because there isn't a map entry for London Group to London Group, if you see what I mean.

Thanks,

NTN

The Routeing Guide notes that where two stations share a common routeing point, London Group in this case, the permitted routes are 'the shortest route'. Direct trains are also valid.

There are no mapped routes for a journey within the London Terminals Group. So the only permitted routes are through trains, the shortest route and routes no more than 3 miles longer.

The shortest route is somewhat debatable, due to the current London Bridge works. LBG - Waterloo East - Waterloo - Clapham J - Victoria would normally be the shortest but is not possible for the next year, neither is LBG - Blackfriars - Denmark Hill - Victoria....

For what it's worth I agree, but I'm very surprised that no-one has yet picked you up on one point, possibly using such harsh language as "How dare you suggest the shortest route can involve a walk between stations!"........

Quick question, if you are using the direct trains rule and travelling via a much longer route, break of journey is still valid along that route isn't it? Assuming the ticket allows BoJ in the first place of course!

There has been debate in the past and opinions vary. My opinion is that the length of the route the train takes has no bearing on the conditions attached to the ticket.

Aren't loop services usually restricted by negative easements, though? For example, you're not permitted to travel "the wrong way" around the Dartford lines to get to London (no taking the train from Sidcup via Woolwich Arsenal to Cannon Street!), to prevent atypical routes from potentially granting extra ticket validity.

Easements affect permitted routes (but not the shortest route). Routes taken by direct trains do not have to be permitted routes.

Re the lack of trains between London Bridge and Waterloo East:

What effect do the several scheduled late evening services which run CHX-WAE-CST-LBG have on the shortest route with regular services? Granted it's only one way, but in and out of Cannon Street is only going to add about half a mile!

The shortest route is the shortest route.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm very surprised that no-one has yet picked you up on one point, possibly using such harsh language as "How dare you suggest the shortest route can involve a walk between stations!".........

I was hoping that no-one would open that can of worms!

 

[MikeWh]

The shortest route is the shortest route.

Well indeed, but I do think trains actually have to run on it for it to count. What is the shortest route between London Bridge and Blackfriars? Is it acceptable to have to wait 3 years for a train?

 

[island]

Aren't loop services usually restricted by negative easements, though? For example, you're not permitted to travel "the wrong way" around the Dartford lines to get to London (no taking the train from Sidcup via Woolwich Arsenal to Cannon Street!), to prevent atypical routes from potentially granting extra ticket validity.

It is unclear whether negative easements can apply to through trains. However as mentioned elsewhere someone trying to use a Lee to London Terminals ticket to get from Slade Green to Cannon Street should not be surprised if it is rejected.

 

[Noggin The Nog]

Ok, I've been playing around with the National Rail Journey Planner for this route, and it comes up with a surprisingly large number of options, all for the Anytime Day Single price of £3.20

One curious example is the following:

00:12 London Bridge [LBG]-> East Croydon [ECR] arriving at 00:29
00:50 East Croydon [ECR] -> London Victoria [VIC] arriving at 01:10

I accept that it is quite an early train, but the fact you can buy a ticket for it suggests it has to be a valid route, does it not? The validity doesn't change by time of day, does it?

NTN

 

[bb21]

NRE do sometimes throw up stupid results, for different reasons, and there are a few ways you can play this.

You could use that to argue that your ticket is valid via East Croydon, and intermediately, but you will likely encounter a lot of hassle, so you will have to weight it up against the possible savings.

Personally I cannot see how this is permitted or reasonable, so unless relying on a technicality you are unlikely to convince anyone that the route via East Croydon should be permitted, and expect it to be withdrawn should a big fuss be made over it.

There are a few routes over south London around Zones 2 and 3 you can use this ticket on, but I cannot see anything further than that.

 

[Noggin The Nog]

Personally I cannot see how this is permitted or reasonable, so unless relying on a technicality you are unlikely to convince anyone that the route via East Croydon should be permitted, and expect it to be withdrawn should a big fuss be made over it.

I can see your point absolutely - I was very surprised to see this route pop out, given the limited knowledge I have gained from consulting the CoC and ATOC Routeing guide. But I don't have such an issue with the technicality.

It is a ticket that is advertised for sale from National Rail - should passengers really be expected to check every ticket they are offered is valid? I think that is the least they could expect.

This question only came about while I was trying to find a cheaper ticket for East Croydon to London Bridge than the standard one. Rather than pollute the technical discussion here, I think I'll post that in a separate thread.

Thanks,

NTN

 

[maniacmartin]

There are numerous flows where NRE will be more permissive and offer itineraries on routes that would not normally be valid, if you search at odd times when no trains are running over the permitted routes.

I can see why you might try to justify that this is a permitted route, because all of the literature says that NRE is the definitive source of information and only shows permitted routes. However, I would strongly advise against using such a ticket at East Croydon at other times of the day repeatedly. You will almost certainly get into disputes with staff, and the won't be able to use the Routeing Guide to back yourself up.

As you can see, a lot of rail ticketing is not simple and full of grey areas, so discussions will get into technicalities quite often, especially if you are discussing loopholes!

 

[furlong]

The validity doesn't change by time of day, does it?

It does not, and if you add 'Via East Croydon' you'll see it also shows you it is valid at normal times of day. Just carry a print out from the website when travelling in case anyone you encounter is unsure about this validity.

 

[RJ]

Personally I'm not keen on relying solely on online itineraries to justify using a route.

If it's a bizarre route that can be justified through NRCoC Condition 13, then by all means I would use the journey planner to strengthen my case. For example, using an Ebbsfleet to Gravesend ticket to travel on HS1 between Ebbsfleet and St Pancras, before the route was officially removed from the Routeing Guide in October 2014.

In cases like this, WebTiS specials and other booking engines using out of date data, I think it concerns contract law and not ticket validity. Unless you know your contract law and are confident it will get you out of bother if you're taken to court, I wouldn't bother trying it out.

 

[furlong]

Personally I cannot see how this is permitted or reasonable

Surely it is permitted because the rail companies are advertising it as such through their website, www.nationalrail.co.uk, which they advise people to use to check permitted routes? (And "reasonable" isn't relevant if it is "permitted".)

 

[bb21]

"Permitted" as defined in the NRCoC, which forms the basis of the contract between the passenger and the train companies. NRE is only a tool.

I have mentioned using NRE itineraries as a possible line of argument, but the potential for hassle must be taken into account for something which on the face of it looks so ridiculous.

 

[RJ]

"Permitted" as defined in the NRCoC, which forms the basis of the contract between the passenger and the train companies. NRE is only a tool.

I have mentioned using NRE itineraries as a possible line of argument, but the potential for hassle must be taken into account for something which on the face of it looks so ridiculous.

With nothing in writing to justify it unequivocally. I'd steer well clear.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surely it is permitted because the rail companies are advertising it as such through their website, www.nationalrail.co.uk, which they advise people to use to check permitted routes? (And "reasonable" isn't relevant if it is "permitted".)

Finding a route in the Routeing Guide and checking it with a Journey Planner is not the same as using a Journey Planner to find a permitted route. Journey Planners are only as good as their programming.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Finding a route in the Routeing Guide and checking it with a Journey Planner is not the same as using a Journey Planner to find a permitted route. Journey Planners are only as good as their programming.

A bit daft then that they advise people to use it to check permitted routes that they've found - they mandated it previously!

 

[RJ]

A bit daft then that they advise people to use it to check permitted routes that they've found - they mandated it previously!

I think mandating it caused more problems than it solved. The Journey Planner isn't the same as the Routeing Guide - it contains various unpublished easements and restrictions, plus it is nowhere near powerful enough to actually check all possible routes.