Valid reasons for NOT Using a Ticket Machine

[Mutant Lemming]

I gather that certain staff with PTAC/PRIV cards can purchase their tickets on board or at their destination if they board at an unstaffed station that has a ticket machine and penalty fares because 'the type of ticket they want is not available from the machine'.
Does this mean that if a passenger wanted to buy, for instance an All Line Rover, they could do so on the train or at the first opportunity they have to do so because the ticket they wanted was 'not available from the machine'?

 

[SS4]

I gather that certain staff with PTAC/PRIV cards can purchase their tickets on board or at their destination if they board at an unstaffed station that has a ticket machine and penalty fares because 'the type of ticket they want is not available from the machine'.
Does this mean that if a passenger wanted to buy, for instance an All Line Rover, they could do so on the train or at the first opportunity they have to do so because the ticket they wanted was 'not available from the machine'?

edit: Sort of. The NRCOC indicates you should buy a ticket for at least part of your journey and the value of this ticket will be deducted from the ticket you wish to buy (Condition 3)

You could also buy on board if you wanted to pay in cash but the TVM does not accept cash.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Wouldn't it be relatively easy to add relevant rover tickets to the machines ? (as well as an option for staff to buy their discounted tickets)

 

[blakey1152]

I wanted to purchase a weekly Travelcard zones 4-6 from Dartford

I attempted to purchase this from the ticket office at Slade Green but the office was closed when it should have been open and that particular ticket is not available from the ticket machine on the platform.

I used the telephone help system to ask what to do and they told me to travel to the next station down the line and buy the ticket there and I asked whether or not I should buy a ticket for this journey as had the office been open it would have been unneccesary - I was told no need to buy a ticket!
This I recorded on my phone for just in case purposes.

and good job I did too as I got pounced upon by the Gestapo at Dartford for not having a ticket, I explained why I had to come to Dartford to get a Travelcard and they said I must have bought a valid ticket before hand!
However, after hearing my recording on the phone they relented and let me buy a ticket and travel back.

I guess the telephone customer service assistant was wrong and I should have bought a ticket!!
Chris

 

[trc666]

The reason behind PRIV tickets not being available at TVMs is because everyone would start buying them due to the substantial discount (75% off full Anytime fare compared to 34% off for Railcard holders). It's bad enough that adults are buying child tickets on them and others are buying and trying to use Railcard discounted tickets when they do not hold the appropriate Railcard (Senior, HM Forces, Disabled etc.).

 

[Ticket Man]

Wouldn't it be relatively easy to add relevant rover tickets to the machines ? (as well as an option for staff to buy their discounted tickets)

Rover's maybe but you would be opening up a whole can of worms if PRIV tickets were available at machines.

If you think the railway is overstaffed at the moment, you ain't seen nothing yet!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Rover's maybe but you would be opening up a whole can of worms if PRIV tickets were available at machines.

If you think the railway is overstaffed at the moment, you ain't seen nothing yet!

I was thinking it would be possible for staff to enter a special code at the machine but then I recalled some bloke playing about 'experimenting' with a ticket machine who was still there when I came back through the station an hour or so later. Also I suppose that certain staff would let it slip to friends and associates though I'm sure some chip activated card could be issued to ensure that only the person in possession of a valid up to date card could use it.
Incidentally - if the railway WAS overstaffed then they wouldn't need the machines in the first place.

 

[IainH]

Pretty sure some SNCF machines permit staff tickets to be bought, but do need a number to be entered before it is allowed.

 

[dvboy]

Have deliberately not used a ticket machine at Sandwell & Dudley that would not sell a NWM Friends & Family ticket back when I had a nNetwork season. Was sold it on train instead.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I recall once declining to buy a ticket from the ticket machine at Henley-on-Thames once (when the ticket office was closed) because it'd didn't (or didn't appear to) offer a Gold Card discount (First time I'd used an FGW ticket machine, perhaps it did actually offer these discounts, but, unlike the NXEA and c2c ones I'm used to didn't make it immediately obvious or offer such discounts until a much later stage in the purchasing process. So I thought, sod it, why should I pay an undiscounted fare - which even to one station would barely any cheaper than what was required - a gold card single to Twyford). Though would have happily paid the correct fare on the train.

I daresay I could have been PFed in theory (as Henley, I think uniquely among the stations on that branch, is a PF station), but in the event no checking took place, and my existing ticket was valid once back on the main line. I would have made a big fuss if so.

 

[12CSVT]

I was thinking it would be possible for staff to enter a special code at the machine but then I recalled some bloke playing about 'experimenting' with a ticket machine who was still there when I came back through the station an hour or so later. Also I suppose that certain staff would let it slip to friends and associates though I'm sure some chip activated card could be issued to ensure that only the person in possession of a valid up to date card could use it.
Incidentally - if the railway WAS overstaffed then they wouldn't need the machines in the first place.

Maybe a special code (different code for each TOC's employees) followed by their pay number or even national insurance number - this would soon flag up anybody trying to misuse the system

 

[stut]

I'm also surprised more rovers aren't available - NXEA does sell the Anglia Plus one from theirs now.

Some old SNCF machines used to sell every discount going - the more basic ones just had you select the percentage you were entitled to, then you had to justify it on board (the rural ones just had a dial for this!)

I had a carte 12-25 at the time, and it offered different discounts depending on whether or not the day was designated blue or white (under a peak travel days system). Trying to figure out what fare you had to pay made UK fare structures seem almost simple...

 

[HSTEd]

Maybe a special code (different code for each TOC's employees) followed by their pay number or even national insurance number - this would soon flag up anybody trying to misuse the system

I have a PRIV card and have never been a railway employee, so what would dependents do?

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe a special code (different code for each TOC's employees) followed by their pay number or even national insurance number - this would soon flag up anybody trying to misuse the system

That system is so open to abuse!

I'm old fashioned and take the view that, where possible, rail staff ought to be supporting the booking office.

Obviously that is not possible at many rural stations which are unstaffed! However, I don't see a problem with buying on board, keeping the guard's sales figures up....

 

[87015]

"Buying on Board" Be a beast to see the member who complains about staff sitting down reacting to that!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Maybe a special code (different code for each TOC's employees) followed by their pay number or even national insurance number - this would soon flag up anybody trying to misuse the system

This would require one of two things, a central database or daily updates to the memory of the machine. The both would cost money and require constant communication between all TOCs. Also, as noted, it might stop depandants using the machines.

I'm sure a code could be worked out, but it would have to change regularly imo (which means staff (particularly those on rest days/annual leave) would be required to have advanced knowledge of the change). If the new codes were to be predictable in any way, it could be compromised and thus the point of it would be lost.

If the dependants were anything like my ex, they couldn't be trusted with the codes either.

It seems like a lot of hassle for very little gain.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Earlier on this year, when on a trip to London, I was using a Zones 1 - 6 Travelcard and wanted to go to Bishops Stortford. Outward travelling from Seven Sisters changing at Broxbourne, returning direct to Tottenham Hale. I went to the ticket office at Seven Sisters, but this is the Underground Ticket Office - the is no separate National Rail office. The ticket office was closed, with a sign up saying "Please use ticket machines for all tickets". The enquiries window was open and I asked if he could sell me the ticket I required (Boundary Zone 6 to Bishops Stortford PRIV Return) but he said the office was only open for enquiries, and as such I should use the machines.

Anyway, I boarded the train and upon changing at Broxbourne went to the ticket office. I explained that I was unable to pay at Seven Sisters, and asked to purchase a Boundary Zone 6 to Bishops Stortford PRIV Day Return.

I was then sold a Broxbourne to Bishops Stortford Day Return.

I noticed this was incorrect, explained again what was doing, and was then sold an Enfield Lock to Bishops Stortford return.

I again explained that this wasn't correct. There then followed a long conversation with the clerk who quite clearly didn't seem to have the faintest idea what I wanted and had to get someone else to help.

After someone else came along I was successfully sold the correct fare.

Oh how it would have been so much easier had I been able to buy the ticket at Seven Sisters!

 

[Minilad]

That system is so open to abuse!

I'm old fashioned and take the view that, where possible, rail staff ought to be supporting the booking office.

Obviously that is not possible at many rural stations which are unstaffed! However, I don't see a problem with buying on board, keeping the guard's sales figures up....

You would think that wouldn't you but let me tell you a little story.
I was at Peterborough attempting to get back to Birmingham and the direct service was cancelled. I was in a bit of a hurry so instead of waiting an hour for the next one I decided to go into the Cross then out of Euston. I was on an East Mid Rover so needed a ticket into the Cross. I ran over to a HST that was approaching and went up to the guard and asked if he would sell me a PRIV single to The Cross. "No I can only sell full price tickets on the train, you will have to get one from the ticket office" Cheers mate, Another reason to dislike GNER and their arrogant on board crew !!

 

[Tomonthetrain]

why not make privs so they have a chip in (like a smartcard) so to get the discount they'd have to be scanned.

and do all other railcards like that Whilst we are at it...printing the card number on the ticket!

Same on train too

 

[AlterEgo]

why not make privs so they have a chip in (like a smartcard) so to get the discount they'd have to be scanned.

That would be insanely expensive to implement though.

 

[WestCoast]

That would be insanely expensive to implement though.

It's something to look at the long-term though, especially with all this talk of smartcard ticketing.

When it comes to ticketing, we must embrace technology, despite the initial cost-outlay. It's amazing to think that the Netherlands rail network is already hurtling towards almost 100% smartcard ticketing.

Not being a holder of a PRIV, one of my biggest bugbears is not being able to purchase rovers/rangers from TVMs or online. In other countries, these tickets are always heavily promoted and in some cases available online for printing at home (and at TVMs).

Oh, and do remember that "buying on board" isn't exactly welcomed in some areas. I'm thinking of some South West Trains' PF stations where you have TVMs and nothing else. Technically, you are expected to buy some sort of ticket, even if it's not to your requirements.

 

[Minilad]

Railway employees can get PRIV oyster cards so the idea of a PRIV smart card of some description isn't so far fetched

 

[WillPS]

I can see it working with things like PRIVs and Disabled/Forces railcards (which have to issued by post), but it would kill the ability of stations to issue them unless they purchase relatively expensive card printing equipment...

 

[sprite]

My priv has got an ID number that I had to provide to West Coast Railways when I used it to get a discount on the SSE last year. Could this code not be used to access the priv options and then be printed on the ticket. This would then need to be verified at a barrier or by an RPI/Gaurd on train.
Still open to abuse, but the number could be logged and when ticket purachase statistics are downloaded (if they are), large volumes of supicious purchases by an id number could be flagged for investigation (by spotting a pattern and getting a check done on the user of the ticket?).

 

[4SRKT]

Don't staff have to carry their priv cards with them when travelling on a PT? I'm sure I had to in BR days. In that case what's the difference between issuing a priv at a ticket machine and issuing a Railcard discounted ticket?

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't staff have to carry their priv cards with them when travelling on a PT? I'm sure I had to in BR days. In that case what's the difference between issuing a priv at a ticket machine and issuing a Railcard discounted ticket?

For a start, a lot of the public are unaware of Priv discounts - drawing attention to them would be rather undesirable, I think!

 

[4SRKT]

But if you have to carry a priv card, travelling on a PT without the card would mean the ticket was totally invalid, just as buying a FAM ticket is and then not carrying the railcard. I can't really see the difference and it would be down to enforcement of rules by on train and barrier staff. You might as well argue against any form of discounting as it is open to abuse.

 

[AlterEgo]

But if you have to carry a priv card, travelling on a PT without the card would mean the ticket was totally invalid, just as buying a FAM ticket is and then not carrying the railcard. I can't really see the difference and it would be down to enforcement of rules by on train and barrier staff. You might as well argue against any form of discounting as it is open to abuse.

I'm talking more of the public reaction to seeing the discounted fare on the TVM - a lot of people aren't aware of the discounts available. Imagine mr Joe Bloggs finding that any rail staffer can get his £40 Anytime fare for a tenner, even if they don't work for the operating TOC!

Personally I think a secure staff travel portal online, selling tickets, would be great in terms of convenience for me.

But I couldn't justify the investment for such a small portion of the market to anyone!

 

[Minilad]

Don't staff have to carry their priv cards with them when travelling on a PT? I'm sure I had to in BR days. In that case what's the difference between issuing a priv at a ticket machine and issuing a Railcard discounted ticket?

I think a lot would be down to the On Train staff in this regard. No names no pack drill but travelling around a lot using PRIV tickets you do tend to find guards will see PRIV on a ticket and wave it past without asking to see ID. Now some would see this as a benefit but of course in this regard you would need all guards to start asking for ID. But buying from a ticket office I have always been asked to show ID when asking for a PRIV ticket

 

[4SRKT]

I'm talking more of the public reaction to seeing the discounted fare on the TVM - a lot of people aren't aware of the discounts available. Imagine mr Joe Bloggs finding that any rail staffer can get his £40 Anytime fare for a tenner, even if they don't work for the operating TOC!

I can't see why the T&Cs of rail staff are anyone's business TBH. I'm sure their overall package is no better/worse than comparable jobs in other industries.