Valid Delay Repay claim?

[najaB]

I'm wondering if I have a valid delay repay claim or not, and if so which TOC should it go to.

The journey as planned:

• Dundee (1407) - Edinburgh (Scotrail)
• Edinburgh (1612) - Wigan North Western (Transpennine Express)
• Wigan North Western (1914) - Warrington Bank Quay (Virgin Trains)
• Warrington Central (1958) - Liverpool Lime Street (East Midlands Train)
• Liverpool Lime Street (2102) - Birkenhead Hamilton Sq (Mersey Rail)
• Birkenhead 12 Quays (2230) - Belfast Port (Arriva Trains Wales)

As it turned out, the 1914 from Wigan had been cancelled at Lancaster, so I got the 1928 (which was running about 7 minutes late). I got to Warrington Central in time good time to get the 1958, but as it turned out it was running about 12 minutes late. Then we sat at Hunts Cross for about 30 minutes in which time the guard kept saying that we'd be moving shortly.

We finally arrived at Liverpool Lime Street at 2109 (42 minutes late) - which was too late to get a train from the low-level platform to Hamilton Square as the shuttle bus would have left by then as well (which would mean I would have to walk to the port).

The check-in for the ferry closes at 2130 so I jumped in a taxi and managed to get there in time (thanks to a very helpful lady who agreed to keep check-in open until I got there).

So, since I had to 'abandon' the railway due to the train I planned to get being 42 minutes late is there a valid claim, or does the fact that I made the ferry (and so got to Belfast on time) mean that my journey wasn't delayed?

 

[CyrusWuff]

You still travelled on the ferry, so a refund under NRCoC Condition 26(b) would be inappropriate (and, in any case, you'd end up owing the TOC money as a Dundee to Liverpool ticket is more expensive than Dundee to Belfast on SailRail).

As for the delay claim, I would think that should go to Virgin as it was their cancellation that ultimately caused the delay.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'd say it should go to EMT, you were back on time at Warrington, I mean how far do you need to monitor departure times what if the Scotrail train was 2 minutes late or something?

 

[reb0118]

I'd say it should go to EMT, you were back on time at Warrington.....

I would tentatively agree with this. A few points, however:-

1) Does delay repay apply to sail rail? (I don't see why not).

2) Were you delayed at your final destination, and as your final leg was by ferry does that have a material influence?

My own views are that for delay repay purposes only the rail element of the journey should be taken into consideration as I'm sure the ferry companies would not be paying out for any delay on their part due to weather &c.

How late would you have been at Birkenhead Hamilton Square if you had waited for the local Merseyrail train? Maybe you should not be entitled to delay repay but compensation for the taxi fare? A subtle but important distinction.

Another (hypothetical) point, what if the delay had originated with ScotRail?
As ScotRail are not in the delay repay scheme what compensation/assistance would be given? What if they offered to re - route you via Cairnryan? Would that be acceptable?

Interesting scenario. I'm glad you got to Belfast on time and hope you were not too stressed on your journey down. Apart from the delay was it an enjoyable trip - a good crossing hopefully?

 

[najaB]

I would tentatively agree with this. A few points, however:-

1) Does delay repay apply to sail rail? (I don't see why not).

2) Were you delayed at your final destination, and as your final leg was by ferry does that have a material influence?

My own views are that for delay repay purposes only the rail element of the journey should be taken into consideration as I'm sure the ferry companies would not be paying out for any delay on their part due to weather &c.

How late would you have been at Birkenhead Hamilton Square if you had waited for the local Merseyrail train? Maybe you should not be entitled to delay repay but compensation for the taxi fare? A subtle but important distinction.

Another (hypothetical) point, what if the delay had originated with ScotRail?
As ScotRail are not in the delay repay scheme what compensation/assistance would be given? What if they offered to re - route you via Cairnryan? Would that be acceptable?

Interesting scenario. I'm glad you got to Belfast on time and hope you were not too stressed on your journey down. Apart from the delay was it an enjoyable trip - a good crossing hopefully?

To answer your last question first, the crossing was pleasant enough though it was quite busy so I could get neither a cabin, nor into StenPlus. I did however discover that the cinema has one showing and then is dark and comfortable (though a bit rattly) for the rest of the night.

Looking at Realtime Trains, if I had got the train to Hamilton Square rather than a taxi to the Stena terminal, the earliest I would have gotten there would've been 2119 (assuming an unrealistic 3 minutes to get to the low-level platform), more realistically it would have been 2124 and then I would've had the 15 to 20 minute walk to the ferry terminal.

Given that check-in is scheduled to close at 2130 I would have been stuck at the terminal until 10am!

 

[yorkie]

I'd inform EMT of the 42 minute delay to their train, and mention that you took a taxi to avoid missing the ferry.

Include all ticket(s) and the taxi recepit on this form: http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Global/Policies%20and%20Procedures/NewDelayClaimsForm2014.pdf (there doesn't appear to be an online form unfortunately)

I don't know how much your ticket(s) cost, nor how much the taxi cost, but I would say the following would be reasonable:

• either a refund of the taxi (though they are not bound to do this as it appears you did not get the taxi authorised) or
• Delay Repay based on a 42 minute delay into Liverpool Lime Street.

If the former is less than the latter, I don't think you could complain if that's what you get back, because arguably you were not actually late at your destination.

If the former is greater than the latter, I do not believe they are compelled to pay any more than the amount due for the actual delay experienced.

 

[furlong]

either a refund of the taxi (though they are not bound to do this as it appears you did not get the taxi authorised)

I doubt there'd have been time to get a taxi authorised! It's normally a very slow procedure so you'd have needed to think ahead and try to set it up earlier on your journey.

 

[yorkie]

I doubt there'd have been time to get a taxi authorised! It's normally a very slow procedure so you'd have needed to think ahead and try to set it up earlier on your journey.

Indeed, but that doesn't make the operator liable for the taxi fare.

I'd argue that if the ferry was missed, you should take the final arrival time into Belfast for the delay claim. I'd also argue a case for the entire cost of the ticket(s) to be taken into account, but the rail operator could counter-argue that the ferry 'element' should not be included. So, by taking a taxi for a short distance, could be seen as reasonable to avoid that happening.

Without knowing what the taxi fare was, and what the ticket(s) cost it's difficult to advise though.

 

[najaB]

Indeed, but that doesn't make the operator liable for the taxi fare.

I'd argue that if the ferry was missed, you should take the final arrival time into Belfast for the delay claim. I'd also argue a case for the entire cost of the ticket(s) to be taken into account, but the rail operator could counter-argue that the ferry 'element' should not be included. So, by taking a taxi for a short distance, could be seen as reasonable to avoid that happening.

Without knowing what the taxi fare was, and what the ticket(s) cost it's difficult to advise though.

Agreed that it would've been better to get the taxi authorised, but there wasn't time - as it was I arrived at the ferry port at 2131 (check-in closes at 2130).

The taxi fare was £13.40 and the ticket was £82. I don't know what the appropriate single ticket would be to compare to the SailRail fare - the 'Any Permitted' Off-Peak single is £121 so you could say that the Ferry portion is actually a discount!

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed that it would've been better to get the taxi authorised, but there wasn't time - as it was I arrived at the ferry port at 2131 (check-in closes at 2130).

The taxi fare was £13.40 and the ticket was £82. I don't know what the appropriate single ticket would be to compare to the SailRail fare - the 'Any Permitted' Off-Peak single is £121 so you could say that the Ferry portion is actually a discount!

So if EMT give you a RTV for 50% of the cost of the single ticket then you'll have a voucher worth more than the taxi fare you paid and you'll have arrived in Belfast at the time you originally scheduled.

 

[najaB]

So if EMT give you a RTV for 50% of the cost of the single ticket then you'll have a voucher worth more than the taxi fare you paid and you'll have arrived in Belfast at the time you originally scheduled.

That's why I was wondering if it was worth pursuing a claim. On the one hand, my overall journey wasn't delayed, on the other hand I left home an hour earlier than suggested by the NRES journey planner (it had suggested the 1515 departure from Dundee), yet ended up out of pocket for a taxi and considerably stressed.

I'll put a claim in with EMT and see how it pans out.

 

[najaB]

In case anyone was interested what happened, I received a RTV for £41 in the mail today.