• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bertie the bus

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
3,216
As far as I'm concerned, the quicker the vaccination rollout happens, the better.

I completely see your worry, but I've come to the conclusion that SAGE, the Government and other lockdown protagonists are going to push for continual lockdown regardless, so anything such as a quicker vaccine rollout that could undermine that, is good in my book.
Unfortunately, as I think we will see on Monday, just injecting people doesn't achieve anything. We have now vaccinated nearly 1/3rd of the adult population and virtually all of the over 65s but from the leaks it looks we will be in a situation where we still have tighter restrictions than when vaccinations began 11 weeks ago. People keep saying what a fantastic success our vaccination programme has been but it has achieved literally nothing. I would hate to see what a failed vaccination programme looked like.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,310
Location
Yorks
Unfortunately, as I think we will see on Monday, just injecting people doesn't achieve anything. We have now vaccinated nearly 1/3rd of the adult population and virtually all of the over 65s but from the leaks it looks we will be in a situation where we still have tighter restrictions than when vaccinations began 11 weeks ago. People keep saying what a fantastic success our vaccination programme has been but it has achieved literally nothing. I would hate to see what a failed vaccination programme looked like.

I agree. Lockdown needs to end straight away (in sense of "stay at home"). The rest of it needs to go more urgently (as apposed to "get the kiddies to school then hang the rest"). Small businesses need to be assisted.
 
Last edited:

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,664
Unfortunately, as I think we will see on Monday, just injecting people doesn't achieve anything. We have now vaccinated nearly 1/3rd of the adult population and virtually all of the over 65s but from the leaks it looks we will be in a situation where we still have tighter restrictions than when vaccinations began 11 weeks ago. People keep saying what a fantastic success our vaccination programme has been but it has achieved literally nothing. I would hate to see what a failed vaccination programme looked like.
I think that's hardly a way to measure success.

I appreciate its difficult to see the light for the dark at the moment but that is an incredibly negative way to look at what's been achieved.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,250
Location
Yorkshire
There is even more evidence that delaying the second dose from 3/4 weeks to around 12 weeks is the most effective strategy and this applies to the Pfizer vaccine as well as the Oxford vaccine:

Polack et al. (Dec. 31)1 report a vaccine efficacy of 94.8% against Covid-19 after two doses of the messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine BNT162b2 (Pfizer–BioNTech).

The authors also report a vaccine efficacy of 52.4% from after the first dose to before the second dose, but in their calculation, they included data that were collect-ed during the first 2 weeks after the first dose, when immunity would have still been mounting.

We used documents submitted to the Food and Drug Administration2 to derive the vaccine efficacy beginning from 2 weeks after the first dose to before the second dose (Table 1).

Even before the second dose, BNT162b2 was highly efficacious, with a vaccine efficacy of 92.6%, a finding similar to the first-dose efficacy of 92.1% report-ed for the mRNA-1273 vaccine (Moderna).

With such a highly protective first dose, the benefits derived from a scarce supply of vaccine could be maximized by deferring second doses until all priority group members are offered at least one dose.

There may be uncertainty about the duration of protection with a single dose, but the administration of a second dose within 1 month after the first, as recommended, provides little added benefit in the short term, while high-risk persons who could have received a first dose with that vaccine supply are left completely unprotected.

Given the current vaccine shortage, postponement of the second dose is a matter of national security that, if ignored, will certainly result in thousands of Covid-19–related hospitalizations and deaths this winter in the United States — hospitalizations and deaths that would have been prevented with a first dose of vaccine.

This news isn't new from the point of view that many experts were saying this already, but some people argued that firm evidence wasn't there. That evidence is absolutely indisputable now.

The USA is being urged to follow the 12 week gap policy already adopted by the UK.

I've been saying for weeks now that those who advocated a 3/4 week gap were acting against the best interests of the population, and now we have very good evidence of this.

Edit: and from another study...

Estimated vaccine effectiveness was pretty much 0 at day 14 but then rose to about 90% at day 21 before levelling off.

The cause of the initial surge in infection risk is unknown but may be related to people being less cautious about maintaining protective behaviours as soon as they have the injection.

What our analysis shows is that a single dose of vaccine is highly protective, although it can take up to 21 days to achieve this. The early results coming from Israel support the UK policy of extending the gap between doses by showing that a single dose can give a high level of protection.
 
Last edited:

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,248
Now all adults to be OFFERED first vaccine by the end of July. Offered is long way off getting first jab, and being effective several weeks later


Somewhat different to the headlines in newspapers "by July"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There is even more evidence that delaying the second dose from 3/4 weeks to around 12 weeks is the most effective strategy and this applies to the Pfizer vaccine as well as the Oxford vaccine:



This news isn't new from the point of view that many experts were saying this already, but some people argued that firm evidence wasn't there. That evidence is absolutely indisputable now.

The USA is being urged to follow the 12 week gap policy already adopted by the UK.

I've been saying for weeks now that those who advocated a 3/4 week gap were acting against the best interests of the population, and now we have very good evidence of this.
Yep 3-4 weeks was always about quicker approvals process and higher chance of people returning for second dose rather than immunology!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Returning to the real world effectiveness data from Israel on the Pfizer Jab:

Some interesting 1 week vs 2 weeks post 2nd jab effectiveness differences:


Effectiveness measures:1 week post second jab2 weeks post second jabDelta
preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection91.9%95.8%+3.9%
preventing disease with fever or respiratory symptoms96.9%98.0%+1.1%
preventing COVID-19 hospitalizations95.8%98.9%+3.1%
preventing severe disease96.4%99.2%+2.8%
preventing death from COVID-1994.6%98.9%+4.3%

The main point is that most of the benefit from the second jab take time to kick in as well. (following on from at @yorkie 's post above on first jab effectiveness)
 
Last edited:

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,281
Pretty awful day for vaccinations today.
Only 116,000 in England.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,214
Location
UK
That's the lowest since the 10th of Jan, I think?
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,214
Location
UK
On the brighter side, It still probably beats many countries at the moment.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,281
Is that yesterday’s (Sunday) number? Does seem lower than usual even for Sundays though...

Vaccine shortages for a couple of weeks apparently.

Pfizer have been doing stuff to their manufacturing plant to increase capacity moving forward.
 

Simon11

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2010
Messages
1,389
Interesting to see that the media aren't challenging the poor vaccine figures over the last few days and asking why they are low.

Is it due to the vaccine production which is well known, or did the government really push hard last week to reach 15m deadline to cover the backside, leaving us short for following weeks?
 

Philip

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2007
Messages
3,734
Location
Manchester
Interesting to see that the media aren't challenging the poor vaccine figures over the last few days and asking why they are low.

Is it due to the vaccine production which is well known, or did the government really push hard last week to reach 15m deadline and vaccines were brought out to GPs ASAP?

I doubt there has been any relaxation in supply to medical centres or administering the vaccine, almost certainly supply issues from the manufacturers.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,664
They did warn that it would drop as we would run out of supply, or at least not have the same level of supply.

Hopefully Pfizer sort their production out and we are not far from other vaccines being delivered. Assuming J&J and novavax gets approved it should be April and we will be away again.
 

swr444

Member
Joined
26 Aug 2008
Messages
992
Location
London
They are also holding back on supplies for the 2nd doses. We are about to enter the period where we need to give over 17m people their 2nd jabs
 

Simon11

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2010
Messages
1,389
Do we really need to hold back for 2nd jabs? Nothing special around 12 weeks, other than they haven't had times to test longer periods?

They should test people vaccinated after 10 weeks to find how how much they are protected and consider whether it is best to give them a second jab, or give someone their first jab.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
The BBC page says 334,679 jabs?

That's the figure announced yesterday for jabs done (or put onto the system) on the 20th

Do we really need to hold back for 2nd jabs? Nothing special around 12 weeks, other than they haven't had times to test longer periods?

They should test people vaccinated after 10 weeks to find how how much they are protected and consider whether it is best to give them a second jab, or give someone their first jab.

There's clearly some reason for them to have chosen 12 weeks though. Extending the interval even further is probably alright from an immunity point of view (although there has to be some cut off somewhere for the body to see it as a repeat infection and deliver longer lasting immunity vs a second, new infection - this is also why it would be difficult to 'just test how protected they are after 10 weeks' as the second dose isn't about 'topping up' immunity so much as guaranteeing into the future), but would cause issues around having to further reschedule appointments, and even getting people to come back for the second dose at all - particularly as any changes now affect tens of millions rather than less than a million when they extended the pfizer dosing the first time
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,281
The BBC page says 334,679 jabs?
That was the Saturday figure reported on Sunday.
The Sunday figure reported today was 141,719 first doses.

Too late to change now, we are committed - the political backlash is worset han simply tolerating a lower output for a while.

Hopefully Pfizer production will get back up to speed.
Supposedly supply should start to recover this week.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
8,005
Location
Surrey
Whitty on the presser tonight was very positive about efficacy of vaccines. A number of studies released today are underpinning this.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,381
Do we really need to hold back for 2nd jabs? Nothing special around 12 weeks, other than they haven't had times to test longer periods?

They should test people vaccinated after 10 weeks to find how how much they are protected and consider whether it is best to give them a second jab, or give someone their first jab.
There's already an issue over the legitimacy of consent for people told they'd receive a 2nd jab after 3 weeks, who then found the interval stretched to 12 weeks. A further change in regime would raise some major questions over the validity of consent, and open up the questions over vaccine effectiveness that have caused so much hassle in Europe but, thankfully, not impaired the rollout here.

The job is being done, and should be done to the plan rather than juggled around with for seeming convenience.
 

Dent

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
1,200
They are also holding back on supplies for the 2nd doses. We are about to enter the period where we need to give over 17m people their 2nd jabs

Why would they hold back supplies arriving during a temporary supply shortage for second doses that will not be due until long after the supply shortage has been resolved? As a stock control strategy that makes no sense.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Why would they hold back supplies arriving during a temporary supply shortage for second doses that will not be due until long after the supply shortage has been resolved? As a stock control strategy that makes no sense.

It's more holding back supplies to ensure they can meet the second doses that are scheduled to take place during the supply shortage, ie the people who had Jabs in December
 

Dent

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
1,200
It's more holding back supplies to ensure they can meet the second doses that are scheduled to take place during the supply shortage, ie the people who had Jabs in December
If the second doses are due now, why are they not being given now? This "holding back" still doesn't make sense.
 

swr444

Member
Joined
26 Aug 2008
Messages
992
Location
London
It's more holding back supplies to ensure they can meet the second doses that are scheduled to take place during the supply shortage, ie the people who had Jabs in December
exactly, in a weeks time they'll be starting with the over 85s 2nd jabs, and they need to have them in place as most of them have been given a set date to come in for their jab. They are not as easy to get a hold of usually and won't like being messed around more after having it been changed from 2 weeks to 12. We've already had quite a few come in asking for their 2nd dose, thinking it was still 2 weeks. So you can imagine what would happen if we changed the dates for them again.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If the second doses are due now, why are they not being given now? This "holding back" still doesn't make sense.
see my latest respone
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,419
Location
Taunton or Kent
It's a worldwide project, not a competition.
I agree, although no doubt the media and others who love to sow division for their own gain make it a competition, sometimes even between the four nations of our own union.

Fortunately this apparent shortage hasn't stopped us already completing first doses for 1-4, so we will reap the benefits of them.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,214
Location
UK
There's already an issue over the legitimacy of consent for people told they'd receive a 2nd jab after 3 weeks, who then found the interval stretched to 12 weeks. A further change in regime would raise some major questions over the validity of consent, and open up the questions over vaccine effectiveness that have caused so much hassle in Europe but, thankfully, not impaired the rollout here.

The job is being done, and should be done to the plan rather than juggled around with for seeming convenience.
There's also an issue over the legitimacy of consent for people told that this would be "12 weeks to save the NHS".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top